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The book is intentionally bare bones, he tells you in the course to not practice from only the book but to wait for the oral teachings that go with it I wouldn't say that his books are a good representation of what his course teaches, his actual methods are almost never discussed in the books they're more broad overviews of the subject matter, for both neigong and neidan The wuzhen pian is featured heavily in several northern lineages im aware of including the most well known, dragons gate That being said I would not recommend damo for serious neidan study, I wouldn't recommend anyone outside of china / taiwan for that but hes great compared to the bruce frantzis or mantak chia types out there lol

His neigong is a collection of martial arts principles and yangsheng methods for the purpose of vitality, nothing too extravagant I've seen pretty much all of them repeated from longmen lineage teachers which lines up with his claim of being initiated into longmen He apparently teaches a neidan method after I think it was either 3 or 5 years but i didn't stay long enough to learn it, from what i've heard its wuzhen pian based Neigong is kinda iffy on lineage because neigong is a very modern term lol but he has a page of teachers on his site

I actually think damo mitchell is a very good source of info, especially when compared to other public offerings (not an exorbitant amount of money or requiring knowing the right people) I learned his neigong stuff long ago before moving elsewhere for neidan and still use the posture cues sometimes Now, that being said The quality of info being put out even freely in chinese by authentic lineage holders is much, much higher quality than anything public in the west I would point someone interested in daoism to damo mitchell without any reservation, a serious practitioner I would recommend to learn mandarin and start networking haha The main points against him are his friendship with adam mizner who is genuinely seriously questionable (super political social media and fake taiji demos where he pretends to be a jedi), as well as his early lineage discrepancies Both from what i've been able to glean are not really relevant to his current teachings (he does not currently teach wuxigong nor does he publicly take a political stance) The first year or so of his course just consists of sinking the body, preparing the space and initiating the ldt, and some basic qigong with hundreds of hours of meticulous explanation There's worse ways to spend your time for sure lol

Hey just a heads up you should be very careful with any books written by geshe kelsang as he's affiliated with the new kadampa tradition which is pretty heavily discouraged by the entire vajrayana community (like orthodox teachers saying destroy the materials ritualistically, discouraged) Namkhai norbu was great though, wish I had a chance to attend his teachings while he was still alive

There's a few different versions around that are a bit different, I wouldn't take hakuin's advice on neidan more than i'd take wang chongyang's advice on buddhism however haha The original has more traditional instruction corresponding to northern alchemy but is of course not translated He specifically discusses the 金液還丹 or "Golden Liquid Returning Elixir" https://wikisource.org/wiki/夜船閑話 I read through your Neidan 101 five ranks of Xian thread, really solid info! I don't agree with some of your conclusions but I think your viewpoint and research are really cool

@stirling I have a lot of respect for Zen buddhism, have you read Hakuin's Yasenkanna? He describes neidan as a separate practice that is useful for supernatural health and longevity but that buddhism is supremely important for the spirit He demonstrates solid knowledge in neidan and is regarded as one of the Zen patriarchs, he writes that the two methods are not the same https://otani.repo.nii.ac.jp/record/8339/files/EBNVol.34No.1_OCR_05.pdf The stages of internal alchemy aren't meant to be taken literally, most of the info about neidan that's public are ways for initiated practitioners to remember information from systems that they've already received oral instructions in I've seen instructions from a few schools on refining spirit into emptiness and they were all different methods of doing a very specific thing, not involving quiet sitting except in its normal role of "bathing and cleansing" On another note fabrizio pregadio is a better source for translations https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_stages.html Stuart alve olson has a strange habit of shaping translations according to his own beliefs

So to get things straight, you burned your bridges with both rudi and GMP And you're still trying to make claims against rudi on behalf of GMP? This is why you generally study ethics and conduct alongside your foundations training Its not even an esoteric issue this is just not how you treat people

I've never learned from rudi and don't know too much about gengmenpai but this reminds me of a lot of other situations that resulted in lineages being completely closed to the west There's a stereotype out there, all westerners will take your sacred techniques and sell them as well as the masters personal info to the highest bidder without any regard for the lineage The behavior from neigongdisciple is not helping to beat the allegations lol

Yes that's a whole can of worms so to speak haha The energetic bodies in Vajrayana are (generally) not the same as the yang immortal body of neidan, the rainbow body would be the closest comparison as its cultivated via reverting the consciousness back to origin but that's a very specific thing that uses an entirely different cultivation method and usually means that the physical form disappears and that life on earth has concluded I know that several neidan lineages deal with other energetic bodies prior to the ultimate yang immortal body but I won't talk too much about that as I haven't received direct transmission on the topic In Vajrayana I think depending on the lineage you are often instructed to assume the form of the deity 24/7 and so the merging of consciousness happens on varying levels throughout your life as perceptions are purified, there are stories of people able to physically become the deity after sustained practice of this Ultimately we only have one human experience of course and so someone that has achieved each energetic body according to the tradition could tell whether they're the same or not, I would personally say that they're different as the cultivation methods and reported effects are different To put on my universalism cap for a moment, religious daoism which is incorporated in varying degrees in neidan lineages deals strongly with deity yoga similarly to vajrayana, in religious daoism deity yoga is said to be a way to access ling qi or "brahma qi" as one aims to assume the authority and energy of heaven I'd say the siddhis from yidam practice are likely similar to the religious daoism line of development even if done for different purposes South east asian esoteric buddhism is super interesting, i've found some really cool stuff from Vietnam that incorporates neidan and tantric buddhism from the shingon line into one lineage Almost impossible to find good info from there without taking a trip and knowing the right people though haha Nan huai-chin has some interesting writings about the similarities between neidan and vajrayana as he says that he's studied both (mostly untranslated in chinese however) His view from what i've seen is also that they are two separate processes that can ultimately compliment each other

Heres my opinion in a bit more detail now that i have some time to do a proper writeup To enter into a productive discussion I think that we need to define terms, what is the realization thats being discussed for each tradition? The goal of neidan (well not really because there are stages beyond it but you know what i mean) is the formation of a spiritual immortal body which is not possible in any buddhist philosophy, as even gods are subject to reincarnation Even within each tradition of buddhism realization is different, is bodhicitta the union of compassion and emptiness or the bliss coming from the winds abiding in the central channel leading to that union of compassion and emptiness? See how its "the same" but the first isnt the same as the second in practical terms? There's alot of stuff like that In vajrayana there are thousands of methods which are taught according to individual capacity, even advanced dzogchen contains physical asanas and energetic anatomy, spontaneous liberation is very hotly debated In my opinion (and I acknowledge this isnt a mainstream opinion) you have to think of it like this Teaching people to have a peaceful and compassionate mind is a wonderful practice, and saying that it can lead to buddhahood in one life quells the western mindset of seeking out the highest teachings In buddhist cosmology this will also lead to deeper and deeper encounters with the dharma in future incarnations The advanced practices of vajrayana that you would be taught on an extended retreat look very similar to neidan, physical yogas, deity yoga using the chakras and three channels, magical ritual and incantations, internal alchemic change of the body, and accessing the pure lights of consciousness leading to shamanic experiences This is also taught at every level of the vajrayana path (ngondro is an introduction into everything listed above) in varying degrees So in summary, there are buddhist views that are very close to neidan and those that are completely different, buddhism is so large that you can honestly find whatever views you want in there Certain neidan lineages I would say arguably compose their own branch of esoteric buddhism lol

This is an interesting discussion because in the exoteric sense karma makes almost zero sense, similar to the man in the mask described above does someone with dementia accrue negative karma from their violent outbursts? Theres a few factors like guilt (even if subconscious) which create suffering that leads to the creation of hells within the consciousness, id say if the man felt guilty then yes he would in effect accrue negative karma unfortunately as no system of karma assumes an intelligence behind karma but more of a cause and effect If the man could no longer feel remorse then id say no negative karma would be accrued as no aspect of consciousness would be retained, similarly if the man was able to accept that he was powerless in the situation through being enlightened then there would be no negative karma This might be different in hindu systems but im fairly certain in buddhism it would work like that In my opinion karma shouldnt be taken super literally, its useful as a roadmap for practicing moral conduct to develop the mind for meditation, its looking at the finger instead of the moon to get into semantics but is unfortunately really common

Have you seen a psychologist? I dont say that to lessen how you feel but even serious praciticioners will usually clear problems with psychologists if they're long running and i see you've been experiencing this for multiple years I see an early post from you saying this happened around 2003? Tell them your symptoms on the physical level (anhedonia, no sex drive) and see what they say, if it doesn't help you then you should explore further spiritual remedies Theres alot of shame around masturbation especially as it relates to taoism, but loss of jing is normal and unless you were doing intense neidan before theres no way you could have hurt yourself energetically in the way that you described My ancient secret remedy to you would be to see a psychologist, eat well and exercise, detox from porn and get your kidneys in order (in the tcm sense not your literal kidneys) If / when the above advice gets you back to the baseline of normal, then you can jump back into energetic work / alternative medicine

Without getting too much into it (as its a bit taboo to talk about the later stuff) there are very tangible results from successful neidan practice If you find a proper teacher you should develop the capabilty to feel the "real" lower dantien 24/7 fairly quickly, once you're past that point you'll always know that what you're doing is real

Theres nothing in the tibetan buddhist canon mentioning mixing any other methods and whether to work with them or not so its an opinion that varies with every teacher Many lamas practice qi gong in fact, i'm guessing because its gentler than tsa lung for those of advanced age Ming methods do absolutely exist in vajrayana but they aren't very commonly taught unless you know what you're looking for, generally the goal is to get students out of the burning building of samsara first and ask questions later, and sadly there just aren't many that make it past the initial important step to see what else there is The amritasiddhi still has a lineage of transmission in vajrayana in fact, which is very close to neidan Its just not a transmission you would really see unless you sought out a lama that could give it to you and requested it Similarly, a gnostic christian wouldn't know what you meant by ming, but you might be interested to know that the christian monks of mount athos are where the english term "navel gazing" comes from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche is a teacher in the bon tradition, it shares quite a bit of similarities with vajrayana but draws more from the traditional tibetan religion Bon ranges all the way from slightly domesticated shamans to full on monastic buddhism lol, theres quite a bit of variety

Primordial purity? Or the golden elixir If its the latter no thats neidan only because it ascribes to a world view that vajrayana does not The first one tons but you should get transmission to read anuttara yoga tantra (im assuming you're familiar with vajrayana as you posted the dzogchen vid)