MIchael80

Could you share some more ?

Hi! I will define full method first. Schools that have the methods to replenish considerably amounts of yuan jing/chi. (there are schools that think this is impossible and some that have weakened forms of this, meaning they can replenish some but it is extremely time consuming or has a high chance of producing problems etc.) because if you have the knowledge of these methods it shapes how one approaches the rest of the practice. Three i know: the 2 schools that the russians represent (yuxian pai and wuliu pai.....interesting here is that there are branches of wuliu who do not have a full ming method; these 2 schools have extremly strong ming methods)...and a private (mountain) longmen lineage where i have trained in. There are some other more private lineages in china that still have that (i have heard that Zhang Boduans lineage is still alive and has very powerful ming methods). I would guess that Wang Lipings system has some of that (Nathan Brine will put out a series of books beginning in Feburary 2020 so we can see this system) quianfengpai has some of that (the lineage from which the famous "taoist yoga" book comes...which is just a part of an manual of that school). another guess would be that Li Shifu from 5 immortals temple knows some of that too. best

Hi! Problem with this understanding is that it reflects modern daoist understanding. In neidan schools with full method it makes no sense. So i will write from that view.(not many daoists schools still have real ming methods today). Qi gong is not a ming method. Ming is yuan jing/yuan chi the life battery and it can only be replenished with alchemical methods. Because these are pre-heaven energies (another name for pre-heaven would be pre-creational) and they cannot be accessed with qi gong. the qi /life force is post heaven (or within creation). MIng is not in the ldt but somehow ascociated (as these energies are before creation) with it and the kidneys. Xing is yuan shen in neidan. It is ascociated with the Upper dantien. what is in the heart is the xin (not xing) the heart nature. Xing will express itself through the heart though. There can not be a real xing first in neidan......but ming must always come first because of how the neidan process works (it is one process only but with very different approaches from one school/lineage to another). In neidan xing cannot be realised until ming is replenished and flowing. It is said some schools do xing first, but that is usually more a xin first (clearing the heart mind) before doing ming and then xing. You cannot realise the xing fully (as it is understood in orthodox neidan lineages) without ming...just not possible. In fact there are neidan lineages which are constant ming gong (which automatically leads to xing realisation and achievement of dao)....this means that is a system of constant doing and when one is done....there is automatic wuwei. True alchemy works with mechanisms that are not used in other spiritual tradtions and because of that cannot be compared to them. In orthodox neidan lineages there is usually nothing like sitting meditation. There maybe sitting exercises but they usually involve hand movements etc.....just silent sitting is used in neidan forms that usually do not have the full method or it is used in very high stages (after the elixir is achieved). hope that helps! All the best! Michael

I was initiated into XYP in 2016.......never lost conncection with the FFS......but they changed as i requested to be trained differently than the common XYP road. I have heard some have seemed to have lost the connection to the ffs but no nothing in more detail. But to me it makes sense that xians do not train all people forever....so when they are not ripe enough they may turn away from them after a certain time. I wanted to learn real alchemy and XYP is not that.....it works basically like Effie says.....but that is not real alchemy. (real alchemy is very rare!) And i am not saying that XYP is bad or anything like that...but not real alchemy. I am hestitant to talk about real alchemy here though i have from time to time because i do not want to be put into the same corner as the russians (who have real alchemy schools)....though i try not to be so boasty as them. (i have no connection to them). But they were right in regards to neidan with full alchemical principle.....and since no book today shows this full principle it is hard to discuss this subject. Also no teacher i am aware of teaches this full alchemical method beside a hidden longmen lineage, the 2 schools which the russians have a branch of and maybe a teacher in Belgium. There is in my understanding no shen alone approach.......one could say that systems like Transcendental Meditation is but they try to reach samadhi which is all encompassing......shen only would mean you just sit and do nothing do reach deeper states of mediation. One could say that vajrayana is shen mostly in the beginning with its lots of visualizations...but they also use body techniques....and later of course tummo (inner fire, which works with chi and jing...here they call the jing drops). Maybe some Zen schools are mostly what could be called shen ...but they also want to reach samadhi like states (which is beyond shen)......but they do not look at the body .....so this could be what you mean. Basic buddhist meditations could be described as shen (vipassana) only........but even there samadhi is goal. What is described here as jing, qi, shen is post heaven approach in chinese systems (in indian system you start with chi, the body is often incoorperated but no work with the jing directly)...aka nei gong. Body work alone is not jing.....it has a healthy effect on body and the jing....but it is not jing work. For this we need the nei gong work that Dammo describes so beautifully. In alchemy the body is prepared but jing, qi, shen in alchemy partains to the yuan forms of these energies which are pre-heaven (before creation) so alchemy it is not about body, chi, mind, as one works with energies which are already beyond the mind but are ascociated with the body. best

Really like that! .......that is a high level teaching!

Hi! Jing is what makes the body........chi is what moves it. Like a candle......jing is the wax....and chi is the flame. There are also pre-heaven forms of jing and chi (which are only worked with in alchemy) .......and post-heaven forms (which are worked with in qi gong, nei-gong, all energy based work etc.). Not ejaculating at all is going against the functions of the body and is harmful to the spirit in the longer run. If you have problems with sex (by either wanting to masturbate/ejaculate constantly ..or totally feeling repelled by it) you should release the blockages that cause such unbalanced behaviour. Changing jing to chi...is actually a term from alchemy...but here it is used in the post heaven realm. There are ways to bring the jing energy back to the kidneys....but as i said ...better to heal the unbalanced aspects of our sexuality. best

They were active here on the forum from roughly 2012 to 2017. They have a school in Russia with several branches there and also Australia. they teach the only 2 Schools with full alchemical principle outside of china.....which are yuxian pai and a branch of wuliu pai. One cannot learn Wuliu if not a russian and living near their school....but one can be taught yuxian pai through skype and retreats in russia. Some of them were more active others less. One of them was very active here ..with the name of opendao (a teacher in the yuxian school). Because they had the knowledge of schools with full alchemical principle they were not shy to "expose" the schools and thoughts wich do not have this knowledge (which is basically every modern school and book about neidan on the market). They just labeled their teaching neidan and stated that all the others are not real neidan. Which from a certain point of view is right but misses the point (see my other posts for this). As you can guess this resulted in lots of heated discussions and they were not liked much here. They have stopped posting here a while ago but you can find these threads through the search function (just type in opendao for ex.). You can contact them through: forum.daode.ru it is a russian speaking forum with an english section. All the best

sure. It is taught that silent sitting meditation is beneficial if done for 10-15 minutes for its calming effect etc. but that calming can be reached also with neidan (moving techniques) ...longer is harmful because it is too yin.....but in alchemy you want to increase the yang (yuan jing, yuan chi)....so it is counterproductive. Once you have the elixir ...the silent sitting is not harmful anymore and it is used in higher stages for further refinement. But in one lineage it was not used at all. Keep in mind what i said in my other posts about neidan with full alchemical principle and the much more well known neidan where this principle is not fully used and other things have interwoven ...bringing different results (not lesser, just different).

We are not in a discussion here Rara. You asked a question and i gave the answer ...from my point of view....nothing more. Yes, every practice needs the juice of compassion to "wet" it...... If we are triggered by other Persons, statements, events etc. it is a good idea to sit unconditionally with the uncomfortable emotion until it moves on and is digested. If you have a teacher (wudang) that resonates with you then follow that path. they way i was taught was that meditation was not allowed at all or only in very high levels (after the elixir has been created). In the schools i know there is no dantian like in the medical field (the field in the lower abdomen...one usually knows from qi gong etc.). but it itself is a pre-heaven manifestation with a different place and different function and cannot be used like the well known form. All the best!

Maybe there are some schools who do think this.....but from my expierence that does not make sense. the pre-heaven energies storehouses are ascociated with the certain body parts but are not of the body because they are pre-heaven (before creation). Alchemy is just technique.....and everyone can use them if they know them. And so the pre-heaven jing and chi can be used if you know how. (you do not to be special at all....or developed or whatever.....). Best

It is not about "knowing the real thing"......it is more that what we call neidan today is a hybrid of alchemy and other stuff and so the alchemical principle is mostly not fully present. I think both teachers are very good in what they teach. The dao classics are intepreted according to each schools agenda. From my backround lao tzi was using the full alchemical method but as i said, every school has the interpretation that fits its understanding. (and the same goes for schoolars). Yes, my ex-teacher ...but is not public. The ones that do this public are the (here) much hated russians.....they are boasty but the two schools they teach have the full alchemical system (at least that is what my teacher said). best

In those modern version which are not fully alchemical but use parts of alchemy there is meditation. In Alchemy systems with the full alchemial method the neidan is a moving form or sitting but with hands moving. No chi is stored in the ldt. If you want to learn these modern forms Wang Liping (or one of his teachers ) and Damo Mitchell are great for that. Or qianfengpai should also be great. best

because in alchemy you do not work with sexual energy........jing is that which makes up the whole body not just sexual energy. And alchemy works with pre-heaven forms of energy.....that are not of the body at all

Jing is the energy that makes up the body, all its liquids etc. (the sexual fluids are only one part of it) Qi is the energy that moves it. the terms you use are alchemical....which means that in alchemy one works only with the pre-heaven chi and jing (which repairs the post-heaven jing and chi). But since not many teach the full alchemical method and all the books that are on the market about neidan are the modern nothern method (which is watered down) you should read some of these. first you need to "lay the foundations" (which means replenishing the yuan stuff in alchemy.....though in modern times it often means just using a little qi gong to balance the body). Look into "daoist internal mastery" from Wang Liping "white moon on the mountain peak" from Damo Mitchell "neidan for everyone" forgot the author all of these books teach only watered down forms of alchemy but better than nothing best

Hi! When will this book be out? best Michael

shugden was allowed to be whorshipped til the 70's when the Dalai Lama forbide that (a lot still do). I do not do that and i do not care. I do not care if he broke his vows as i think that is bs all together and has nothing to do with spirituality but with cultural package. His books give great descriptions of the vajrayana techniques and the path that is what i am interested in.....all power to those who break the secrecy of the systems (in any tradition). best

It is called "Great Bliss: Tantric Sex and the path to inner awakening" by John T. Housemann Seems to be the only book which describes the karmamudra stuff....though that is the highest one so nothing for beginners. the book is quite good as it strips tantra of some layers of the almost religous "doings" that has accumulated over the centuries. It starts with prelimaneries and goes on to very high stuff (including self initiation with the deity)....... I would also read the books from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.....very practical and eveything in except the karmamudra stuff. (but has some infos about visualized deity partners). best

Hi Dwai! thanks for your clarification! However as i pointed out....to me that is not true (and what i heard of very high level teachers).....sure you can cange the body through alchemical techniques.....but in most tradtions who speak of this phenomena who do not use alchemical stuff they frame the disolution of the physical body as the full karma disolution (even the karmic stains in the elements of the body are purified with changes the elements back to their original state...which later brings the disolution of the body like ramalinga). Buddha taught different vehicles and highest yoga tantra was his highest. As far as i know this phenomena has happened in almost all traditions....though in some more often than in others. David Buckland (and i also think Lorne Hoff) is of the impression that this is a natural process (after awakening) if the embodyment is allowed (which most often is not as this brings all the suppressed traumas to the surface) but maybe cannot complete because naturally it would take a lot of time (because of the density of the body) to complete. (so we would have to get older than we currently do to let that happen). so your quote does not make sense to me.....because if the body disolves that is a deeper karmic purification that just letting it die. (it only makes sense if we come to the light body through techniques, but then we are not awake even though we have the light body). best

Hi dwai! I do not aggree with that statement. Highest yoga tantra and dzogchen ...both budhist traditions mention the rainbow body and see it as the highest expression of enlightenment. Even in the yoga sutras i think there is a line like "perfection of the body comes last".....there is also this light body phenomena in sufi sects.....a lot of traditions see the transformation of the body as the hightest form of enlightenment as it is the deepest form of embodying the absolute. Some modern teachers like David Buckland or Lorne Hoff speak also in that direction and say that the transfomration of the body happens naturally if allowed but takes a long time. best

Hi! From my point of view....all this stuff comes to one when the inner intent is right. I have met a neidan master who is earth immortal (meaning physical immortality). i also met an alchemist who made the philosophers stone and gave me a small piece of it (taking it every day will keep one young eternally). Yeah dzogchen does have more rainbow bodies than most other traditions but!!! most achive only the small rainbow body, meaning they die after a normal human life and then the dead body just shrinks. It is a little like Michael Sternbach said....but there is no need to follow these obscure texts....one can get these achievements through different ways...inner intent and then follow the guidance that comes from within and without will do it. there are neidan schools that have a strong alchemical principle that teach....the here on the daobums so hated "russians" are part of 2 chinese schools who teach these stuff (yes they are very boasty but the schools are very legit). If you look into another thread about the "christ oil" you could do that and your inner guidance will be very strong....so you can find the secrets yourself over time. best

HI lifeforce! Really enjoy reading your experriences with that process! As you write it seems to destroy your previous beliefsystems...which is hard but also very freeing. As i have not watched the clips: what is the goal of this process? How long will it take to come to its goal? You wrote about the physical body going through alchemical change...will this result in extreme longevity, rainbow body etc.? thanks for taking time to answer my questions!! All the best on your way :-) Michael

Immortality after death means that you die consciously and stay conscious during death and thereby eleminating the need for reincarnation. Physcial immortality is a very high state....and can mean just staying young or can even mean unkillable (adamantine body)...for that the elements have to bereversed into their original state...not many achieve that. Pal Pandian from a real Tamil Siddha lineage speaks about some of this in his book..... Interesting theme.....only mediation will not do it... Aurobindo has some interesting insights into that topic but not the means to really complete that work. best!

Some simple waidan is in Jerry A. Johnsons neigong book. there are not much authentic sources for waidan (which is just external alchemy) and those who have the kowledge keep it very secret...but that stuff is real even up to the philosophers stone (the external elixier)...there are some neidan schools that also do waidan but keep it very secret. best

Hi! mmmhhhh we have to be careful with words here......and i do not want a discussion. that the physical and energetic bodies go through further unfoldment there is no doubt about that..... however what i quoted does speak about the further unfolding of consciousness/awareness itself....quote: 'States of Consciousness' does not mean states of individual consciousness. It means states of Consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is an unbounded field of pure Awareness. you call that Self awake presence.....to me that sounds like that.....however there is unfolding beyond this awake presence...it actually feels like loosing it or falling out of it......to some that is deeply shocking.....but as it stabalizes a new perspective comes online and it is seen that even pure awareness is still a veil over true reality. David joked about a guy who thought he was finished for the 3 times now :-) Ahh you have seen Davids batgap interviews! great! he is not the greatest speaker but the only one who (as far as i know) speaks from what is called pure divinity which is sometimes called "source of the source" because from there it is seen that it is the source of the Self aware presence. To me there are 2 types of unity...one before the awakening to pure aware being and the other (the one that is described in the text from Lorne and Lucia) is when awake presence/being reconizes itself fully in the creation...so that happens after an initial abiding awakening. With the loosing of personhood....i would say the identification is lost ..not the personhood. to me it seems like there is much more to these "lets call them states" than we currently know. There is just too much variance and i shy away from this is the true unfolding and this is not. From a lineage perspective to me an authentic Tamil siddha lineage (through Pal Pandian) is the most complete system/teaching i am aware of. best

Hi Spotless! the post was written by Lorne and Lucia Hoff from Canada. they are not very famous but they have a good record of people waking up in their retreats (as far as i know should be over 2 dozens now). They do vids and retreats that do not focus much on the mind but mostly are a talk from "SELF to SELF". https://www.lucialorn.net/ there are others who speak about this further unfolding now. www.davidya.ca (he has also written a book about the stages of consciousness and also has 2 batgap interviews). Even Adyashanti talks about the "beyond/prior to consciounsess" stage now as does Kristin Kirk and Jac o Keefe. (i think the first who did this in the more modern time was nisargadatta maharaj, who spoke about that towards the end of his life) To me that is an important step...knowing that no matter how final pure awareness feels...there is acutally "something" beyond that awarness. best