Bindi

@cobie & @taoisttexts (and freeform it seems) I’d suggest if you think yuan jing > yuan qi is just a theoretical model, it’s only because you haven’t actually come across this subtle essence and it’s conversion, not that it doesn’t exist. In the words of a wise man, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

I think this would be my favourite analogy, asserting that a seed is perfect versus cultivating that seed directly to fulfill its innate potential.

In your view what is the benefit of soul evolution?

Isn’t this just your belief? Or have you experienced yourself as an individual soul merged permanently into an ocean of spirit? And even if this was your reality, it doesn’t follow automatically that this is the spiritual purpose of our lives, you might have missed the point of life entirely, who knows? Some belief systems propose that an individual soul remains, I don’t think you can make an absolute statement about it either way except to say this is what you believe. If I were a Christian I could say you have to give your life to Jesus to be saved, and you will be an individual soul in heaven with God afterwards, it doesn’t make it true though.

Yogapedia states “The causal body is also known by the Sanskrit term, karana sharira. It is composed of karma and samskara, which are, respectively, the record of the yogi's actions in all states of existence and the experiential impressions and imprints on the mind.” I agree that samskara and karma need to be cleared, I would see them as blockages in the subtle channels, more the question is what happens when all the subtle channels are cleared, up to and including the central channel, whatever this fully operational subtle energy system looks like I’m calling the immortal body. Quote The tantras describe an impressive total of 72,000 fine channels, which together with the lotus centers and the three main channels form the “subtle” body of the yogi. In an “ordinary mortal” this network is blocked. The energies cannot flow freely, the chakras are “dead”, the “wheels” are motionless, the perception of spiritual phenomena limited. One also speaks of a “knotting”. Now it is the first task of the yogi to untie these knots in himself or in his pupil, to free and to clean the blocked channels in all directions so as to fill the whole body with divine powers. http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-07.htm

Ancient and Modern interpretation: [Read “Siddhis—Supernormal powers” first] Vyāsa says, The difference is that Samadhi is not the aim of neidan, creating an immortal subtle energy body is the aim of neidan. Two different paths, two different attitudes to siddhis and never the twain shall meet.

For me this is the best image of the actual meta-physical/subtle energy body* that I have so far come across, it’s a very personal image but I still see the sense of it: https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/51672-emotions-are-the-path/?do=findComment&comment=947903 Some texts refer to the alchemical body as a substance converted into gold, a million miles away from a ‘realisation’. To me something is gained if it’s done right, the ‘alchemical body’, as well as the ability to wield it. * The central channel would be the gold sword and hilt, the two side channels (the black and white snakes) would be ida and Pingala nadi’s and how they relate to the central channel, ie. crossing over at the 3 dantians, and the blue gem at the top would represent the culmination of the alchemical ‘pearl’ that is produced via the dantians.

Her heel looks remarkably like the heel of a high heeled shoe. What about the degeneration of Daoist methods into sexual methods, should the early Daoists be blamed because their philosophy degenerated?

For 300 years Christians were only peaceful and at the same time persecuted, then Christianity became aligned with the Roman Empire and became tainted by Roman ruling methods. I would hardly blame Jesus for this historical fact 300 years after he died.

Not to mention Jesus didn’t get to stay around and instruct his followers like the Buddha did, perhaps if he had been given a few more decades he could have created the structures around his belief systems that were instead created by Romans more or less.

I am making a tentative association between post heaven qi and weiqi, it ain’t necessarily so I saw a video where Damo was talking about people who made a big show of interacting with other peoples energy fields, and he was saying this was actually quite a low level achievement that looked much more spectacular than it was, I have looked for that video again but unfortunately can’t find it. But it demonstrates to me that there are different abilities that can be developed, this external qi is a thing, but it’s not valuable. Yuan jing/preheaven jing is valuable because it’s the basis of the jing-qi-shen transmutation, but yuan jing is only contained in the lower dantian, and doesn’t interact with another’s energy field only one’s own field, and it’s only used for one thing which is to make yuan qi, and it’s not a ‘realisation’, it’s an actual subtle energy substance.

Naming it post-heaven qi is probably better than naming it wei qi, I named it thus because of the few instances where extraordinary qi levels have been referred to, but they always seem to be felt or noticed externally to the body.

It depends where you look, Saint Seraphim of Sarov (1759 - 1833) could by all accounts both miraculously heal as well as know what was in a person’s heart. More likely to my mind is that the way to produce these permanent siddhis has dried up in many traditions, so ideas like ‘side effects’ and siddhis not being a proof of attainment become the norm to justify the lack of siddhis in various traditions, not necessarily the truth about the nature of siddhis. Setting the bar low makes it easier for followers to believe they have achieved the highest levels.

Thank you for your good wishes, but I don’t think she will recover the damaged parts of her brain. I’m still working on a part of the process that she did see and tell me about before she really lost her cognitive ability, plus I have had to revert to dreams again for sole guidance. They’re not as good a source of information, but they are a reasonable second best to me. The same as would happen in any leaky pot, the fluid inside leaks out no matter how often fluid is put in. With the channels I have found the Indian Yoga information to be more accurate to what I have come across, and just like in Yoga the two side channels do need to be cleared of blockages, whilst the central channel is more ‘unformed’. How to clear them or form them as the case may be is the billion dollar question IMO. There are hundreds if not thousands of different systems, knowing a particular system might be the best most people can do, but that system might not reflect the reality of the subtle system, and even if it did get the basics it’s unlikely to be in possession of the method to progress with the full cultivation of the subtle energy body. Perhaps the ‘men of old’ did know once upon a time, perhaps a few know now, I personally haven’t seen any evidence of it though, and I certainly don’t have anyone available to guide me except for my own resources. C’est la vie. Appearing and then disappearing sounds like energy briefly activating something and then passing on, if the system is cultivated correctly I suspect the siddhis would be permanent. It is your belief system that states siddhis are neither necessary nor a sign of attainment, very nondual, I believe the opposite, and in this we can only differ.

My concept of yuan jing and yuan Shen comes from what my mother saw happening in my subtle body, she had a remarkable talent for being able to see what was going on in both the physical and the subtle energy body. I was able to work with her feedback for about seven years, she’s not able to do it lucidly anymore as she has had a few minor strokes that have disrupted her cognitive ability to share any such information. The dantians don’t seem to exist in a leak proof state until they are cultivated in specific ways, Ipso facto they are not able to hold yuan jing or yuan qi until they are sorted, I assume the same for yuan Shen. The subtle channels tend to be blocked in adults at least, so ‘consciousness’ cannot traverse them, nor can consciousness go through the doors that block its way without deliberate subtle action. If we all had already completed subtle bodies we should all be able to demonstrate the full range of remarkable siddhis associated with them, clearly very few can demonstrate even one simple siddhi. To ignore siddhis as proof is IMO a simple cognitive error likely based on lack of examples of people who do demonstrate remarkable siddhis. Miraculous healing would be one I’d look for, but also being able to read the hearts and minds of others, and the ability to see what is happening within the physical and the subtle energy body. There is likely to be more, but these would do for a start. Personally I think low level healing ability can be cultivated quite early on, but for the more impressive siddhis I think they are much further along the path. Having any other singular siddhi that is not a clear part of a path seems to be more a distraction than a help, as it can lead you down byways that you might never return from. Singular siddhis can be helpful though, but without understanding how they fit into the gradual development of the subtle energy body they seem to be at best an aid, at worst a dark power.

To me it’s equivalent to going further in towards the centre and the central channel, as opposed to cultivating the energy fields that exist throughout and beyond the body. I personally have found this separation of substances and progression from one substance to another to be the natural course of development of the subtle energy body, “HME” may be an ultimate point, but for me, an ultimate point comes after multiple steps. As some people have mentioned, if you can demonstrate the multiple siddhis that prove a fully developed subtle body, then indeed you have attained the end goal of neidan, but if all you have is a tangible feeling throughout your body and on your skin, chances are you have only developed your weiqi fields, at least to my way of thinking.

IME it’s more specific than this, yuan jing is the direct basis for yuan qi, and yuan qi only fills the middle dantian, yuan jing also only fills its specific container in the lower dantian, they are and remain different from each other and contained. Maybe, maybe not. As far as I understand it, External qi might be mistaken for yuan qi, external qi is what people use to interact with other peoples external qi, yuan qi is an internal affair, and not felt by the body, it remains, at least at this stage, subtle. You are referring to the UDT, I have no experience of the UDT to agree or disagree with your experience. The energetic mist I am referring to is contained within the middle dantian, so not equivalent to mist on the skin, which might relate to external qi again.

I can explain yuan jing to yuan qi from an experiential perspective, yuan Shen not so much yet. Yuan qi is like water that fills a pot like container in the lower dantian, this container is prone to leaking and needs to be fixed. At a certain point when the container is both fixed and full of water, this water rises drop by drop to the middle dantian, where each drop explodes, and the resulting mist, being heavier than air, settles on the floor of the middle dantian which is the size of a backyard swimming pool, sealing the floor and then slowly filling with further exploded water droplets. In the end it still looks like water, but it’s nature has gone through this alchemical process. Presumably in time this exploded water, yuan qi, will at some stage undergo another transformation to become yuan Shen in the upper dantian, but I don’t know anything about this yet.

I recognise this “strange ball” flying up and down, I had the same thing but for me it started at just below the navel, went up fast and hit a barrier at about the solar plexus then returned back down and then up again to just above the navel. The only information I could ever find out about it was through a book in the library by Choa Kok Sui, he called it a permanent seed, there are three of them one in the belly, one in the heart and one in the head. The lower one should stay in the lower dantian, so the solution might be something along the lines of somehow re-anchoring this ball in the lower dantian, but you might need the help of someone who knows what they’re doing.

Posted in the wrong thread.

I think the Buddhists might have a head start in non-attachment, but perhaps I don’t have a Buddhist past life to draw on, so I have to go a different way. I do think rich Christian, New age and Indian gurus might be more attached than not, I’d be willing to consider rich Buddhist teachers might be rich without attachment, but I might reasonably wonder what on earth they’re still charging for if they already have more than enough to live on. If they’re plowing it all back into the community that would make a big difference to my impression of them.

I don’t see why there would have been any change to the subtle body between now and a few Millenia ago, how messed up it is might have increased if anything, but it’s fundamental nature is almost certainly the same, as is it’s potential. Yes my dream was specific to what I was doing, I had started charging for healing work, and I stopped charging overnight. For me personally charging was not the way to go. Each to their own I guess. I know that I personally would be suspect of anyone asking for money. I think my defining feature of growth is how far I can personally progress, and then how I would use it. To be trapped into materialism before I have progressed far would have been a very silly choice for myself, how that progress is used follows on from the earlier decision. The amount of spiritual teachers who use that argument whilst collecting millions is quite sickening. Cynics and critics of wealthy spiritual teachers are silenced by this sentence, and the wealthy teachers remain wealthy. Better to actively divest oneself of wealth than defend it, because the defence can all too easily disguise attachment.

Yes much has changed in the external world, but I’d hazard a guess nothing has changed in terms of inner spiritual realities, in which case this holds as true today as it did then. I kind of agree with you, I didn’t take the faith road myself, I prefer inner work, but swapping faith for cultivation and relying on that to organise the basic needs is tentatively possible. I had a dream once, a few years back, in which I was told if I wanted to go further I had to promise I would never ask to be paid for anything to do with the ‘spiritual’, there was a document to be signed and all, and after less than a days thought about this I was willing to sign the document figuratively, as payment was a poor second to going further, and a hopeless limitation. So I have a pretty defined view of the whole topic. Yes, but it might be better for the soul??? edit to add: The lure of wealth might be too great to risk it, there’s only so much I can eat or so many clothes that I need, maybe it’s a way of staying safe from monetary greed to just be provided for.

Actually overall I do agree with Meta Dao that someone who has achieved an ultimate state wouldn’t charge money. From another such master (excuse the non daoist reference): 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]? 28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. (This is not to say that anyone who doesn’t charge is automatically authentic.)

“When healing has been completed” is to me when everything that needs to be done on the subtle level is done, a fully cultivated subtle energy system, that’s sooo far along. Who knows if mental constructs are superfluous or not at that stage?