Bindi

12 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Yes. These are not incompatible statements. Whether you are aware of what you are looking at or not, the emptiness is always present. When you have some understanding about what it is and have developed your meditation practice sufficiently (a few months practice), you begin to be able to allow the mind to settle and become quiet and see it. 

 

 

Lao Tzu actually gives some pointers in the quote I previously shared:

 

 

Daoism, Buddhism, Sufism, Hinduism, all have examples like this which point directly at it. 

 

Ever come to a startling vista and have your mind go quiet, stunned by the beauty? Ever play music or ride a bicycle and be astounded by how it all seems to be happening by itself and is beautiful and miraculous? You will have temporarily seen it then. Maslow called it "Peak Experience".  

 

This more or less fits, however enlightened mind sees this permanently, and at a greater depth:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_experience

 

For someone who has received, practiced with, and understood direct pointing some of these can be apprehended:

 

There is an uncanny stillness that is present even in a crowded stadium, or when looking at the busy innards of a working watch.

 

There is a "silence" that isn't about the quality of sound, exactly. 

 

Things have a visibly seamless wholeness no matter where attention rests, but what is seen is still comprised of the same familiar objects you always seen.

 

There is a sharp clarity and vividness to it all that "illuminates" it, but not in a conventional sense of the word.

 

These qualities, to some degree, could be appreciated by almost any student that puts the work in.

 

Going further, on deeper meditative reflection and eventual realization the mind becomes almost entirely still, with the occasional single thoughts arising and passing without disturbing the stillness. Time, space, and self are seen as delusions. This is the permanent way of seeing.

I do understand that a state of mental stillness is pleasant, I experienced such a state for a few days, thoughts appeared but flowed away quickly and naturally and seamlessly, but when this state came to an end I saw a single thought that got trapped and lay on a floor that had been apparently reinstated, I watched as a few more thoughts piled on top and very soon I was back to my normal mind, it was as though a momentary opening in the bottom of a channel that collected thoughts had closed over. But this isn’t the fundamental light that I’m referring to. 

12 hours ago, dwai said:

The big question is, is this literally light or  figurative light? 
We can see “light” - in Sanskrit it is called bhāti (shining), in all phenomena right here and now. 
 

I have come across the word jyoti that refers to what I’m thinking of:

Jyoti

ज्योति, jyoti

"light", "radiance", "flame", "brilliance", "brightness"; "luminary", "celestial body"

This is the light that fills the universe; the light of our consciousness. Also, jyoti is a burning light in lamps (dipas) in Indian temples.

In Hindu texts, the prefixing "jyoti" indicates the divine origin of the described objects, phenomena, deities, in other words, appeared from the divine light — the original source of creation.

The question remains though, is it literal or figurative, I tend to think literal, as I have come to believe that all ‘spirituality’ is based on physical states, even if that physicality is made of subtle energy. 

12 hours ago, dwai said:

There are five aspects of all phenomena/things - 

 

* asti - is-ness

* bhāti - shining 

* priyam - usefulness (even a heap of dung is useful) 

* nāma - name 

* rūpa - form

 

Of these, the last two are categorized as jagadrūpam (sign of the materialistic world) and the first three are called brahmarūpam (sign of Brahaman).
 

What people miss is the brahmarūpam aspects (in which the shining/light belongs) and only recognize the jagadrūpam aspects.

 

What happens after realization is the brahmarūpam also becomes recognized, hence “seeing light in everything, including within. Can it manifest as perceptible light for some? Maybe. People with synesthesia see colors associated with sounds, patterns with music and so on. 
 

 

11 hours ago, old3bob said:

...btw no-thing is beyond forms or things and in that way or sense is transcendent although connected.  (also it is not visible to our regular five senses but it is visible to itself)

 

Like in my quote from Gopi Krishna, after his kundalini experience settled down he was able to see a fundamental light everywhere including within himself, so it may well be possible to see this fundamental thing with a new evolutionary sense developed. 

10 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I would say that the Yin and Yang are "inseparable" from the emptiness that they arise from. This is the meaning of "form is emptiness, emptiness form", that what arises in "form" (Yin/Yang) is itself made of the fabric of emptiness, and that the "emptiness" expresses itself in "form". They are inseparable, but the "emptiness" is always underneath our perception of form, unchanging and omnipresent.

 

You say the “emptiness” is always underneath our perception of form, but below you state that it is completely visible to anyone who has been shown what to look for. As you are equating the Dao with emptiness, I would then ask in what way is the Dao visible? 

10 hours ago, stirling said:

 

There isn't a beyond. There is no transcending. The Dao (Emptiness) is present in everything in every moment. It is not hidden, it is  completely visible to anyone who has been shown what to look for 

 

 

14 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

we've had a lot of first hand accounts from people where things went awry or worse who had good intentions and thought their teacher or themselves were on the right track via some positive results,  but to me when walking a knife edge there are still tests for falling or getting cuts until that walk is finished even for advanced students or those far along on the walk... 

 

the saying/story about the "plans of mice and men" used as an analogy comes to mind.

 

Fair ‘nuff, I’ll report if things go awry 🙂

10 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

true enough,  and there is the saying,  “So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. Math. 6:34

 

maybe another way to express the my previous ramblings is that our karma is in the wings (so to speak) until faced and corrected, but to face all of it suddenly could overwhelm most of us...and a warning for most of us is that in seeking enlightenment and or an enlightened teacher is that then instant karma may come into play...

 

Specifically in relation to karma, I have come to believe through personal experience that this is exactly kundalini’s role in the central channel, I believe that kundalini is the only way we can resolve all karma (in an orderly way following natural laws), and that resolving karma in the central channel via kundalini rising is the natural next step after first resolving the mental and emotional complexes that we are weighed down with from this life. In this approach there is no danger of overwhelm, and only a teacher who inappropriately meddles with a followers kundalini could create an overwhelming karmic situation. 

11 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The Yin Yang represents much more than just duality. People tend to miss the outer surrounding circle (or "taijitu" in this diagram, illustrating that the duality of the yin-yang in the center is surrounded by the "supreme ultimate" or "absolute".

 

The Yin Yang diagrammatic representation is same as the Heart Sutra's "form is emptiness, emptiness form" and "two truths doctrine" representing the ever-changing nature of black/white duality inside the circle of the "absolute" as we'd also call it in Buddhism. 

Quote

 

Philosophical Taoism regards the Tao as a non-religious concept; it is not a deity to be worshiped, nor is it a mystical Absolute in the religious sense of the Hindu brahman. Joseph Wu remarked of this conception of the Tao, "Dao is not religiously available; nor is it even religiously relevant." The writings of Laozi and Zhuangzi are tinged with esoteric tones and approach humanism and naturalism as paradoxes. In contrast to the esotericism typically found in religious systems, the Tao is not transcendent to the self, nor is mystical attainment an escape from the world in philosophical Taoism. The self steeped in the Tao is the self grounded in its place within the natural Universe. A person dwelling within the Tao excels in themselves and their activities.

 

…The Tao represents human harmony with the universe and even more phenomena in the world and nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao

 

I understand this to mean Yin and Yang are fundamental principles of the Tao as the Tao expresses itself within the natural universe, which includes within oneself as we are part of the natural Universe. If there is a ‘beyond yin and yang’ and a ‘beyond heaven and earth’, if it isn’t expressed in the natural universe is it relevant to us here on earth, apart from as a philosophical notion? 

 Not exactly Vedanta but this is what “Hindupedia” has to say about similarities between “Hinduism” and Daoism: https://www.hindupedia.com/en/Daoism_and_Hinduism
 

Quote

 

Dualism

Reality is classified with a dualistic outlook, such as ethical vs. unethical, life force vs. mortality, soul vs. matter.

Whereas in Daoism dualism is illustrated using the yin-yang symbol, in Hinduism (especially in Tantrism) it's shown using the shatkona (its top part is masculine energy and bottom is feminine energy.) Essentially, they demonstrate harmony between opposites. Whereas the harmony in Daoism is known as Wuji, in Hinduism it's known by terms like avyaktam and yamala (Union of Shiva and Shakti.)

Basically, dialectical monism* is an approved worldview by both religions. The oldest Hindu metaphysical worldview (darshana) is known as Samkhya, in which the reality comes down to purusha vs. prakriti.

 

* Dialectical monism

Dialectical monism, also known as dualistic monism or monistic dualism, is an ontological position that holds that reality is ultimately a unified whole, distinguishing itself from monism by asserting that this whole necessarily expresses itself in dualistic terms. Wikipedia

On 28/4/2024 at 8:32 AM, old3bob said:

so I'd say a potential waterloo level test matched to or privy like for us particular beings is  somewhere in the wings until overcome.  

Honestly I have no idea, the most we can do is get our subtle energy body operating smoothly, and from then on face adversity in our healthiest way possible. 

4 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

that's a good analogy,  and goes a very long ways in helping but in the end neither a teacher nor a system can take a certain step for us which only we can take...

Sure, we have to take the steps (though there are some exceptions to us having to do some things sometimes), but the importance of correct directions is paramount. I liked another thing Gopi Krishna said, something along the lines of there are immutable laws pertaining to the subtle energy body just as there are in physics, I do agree with this, and I fully believe that if we’re not given the right information about these immutable laws then we cannot be effective in the construction of the subtle energy system. Finding the right teacher or the right system is imperative, especially if we’re willing to do whatever is required of us. 

7 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

 

can only give my personal experience,

 

Kundalini came totally unexpected and it cut away ego in one fell swoop. for many weeks I walked around dazed.

That one fell swoop had made me realize that those stories that I had always shrugged away as woowoo were true, that ego was made out of nothing, that the phrase "were all one" has substance.

 

but I could not live like that and a new storyline, a new ego built up. again reactive et cetera

Now with the underlying knowledge that it is just a story

 

 

Interesting, and completely authentic experience IMO. 

13 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

and which almost killed Gopi Krishna even though his intentions and practice were  100% devotional, hopeful and pure according to his recounting as I remember reading it... anyway a million volts, as an analogy, is still a million volts and preparation is wise but still one can only make so many preparations before getting shocked (figuratively) one way or another.

 

In my experience there can be enough preparation when the right directions are followed, either via dreams or a seer. You know the water system referred to in neidan, I have found that when that water system is set up correctly, kundalini can be likened to a nuclear reactor rod that is kept perfectly cool in water. Without the constant supply of cooling water there can only be intolerable shock. 

On 22/4/2024 at 5:33 PM, old3bob said:

 

I think that is a great excerpt from said author!   The light/Shakti for him is  described as settling into a wonderful/awesome 24/7 presence and who could ask for more concerning  evolution!   I'd also say it can be piercing like an arc-light that is way to bright and blinding to look at although that may just be part of a transition to his description?  Yet if light goes inside of itself what will it find, I'd say its Source...beyond description and memory which can not nail it down.

 

 

 

 

Too bright, too hot, too painful, too anything, is to my understanding because conditions weren’t set up adequately for kundalini to rise. 

On 22/3/2024 at 4:46 PM, old3bob said:

 

Thanks for sharing your descriptive and personal reflections Bindi! 

Btw.  in your studies what teachings have you come across for the end game of the casual or evolving soul body?  (while teachings on the Self say it never has and never does evolve for then it could it also devolve...)

 

Sorry it took so long to respond, I came across this description from Gopi Krishna recently, I concur with his concept of us as evolving organisms, and that kundalini is the factor that allows the next sense evolution to occur. I’m not sure this is what you were asking actually, as this is the current end game for us as embodied organisms, not just a soul body, but this is all I’ve got! 

Thinking across disciplines and philosophies, Krishna’s light seems highly likely to be the Shen referred to in Daoism/Neidan. Also the “Stupendous intelligence that I can sense but never fathom, [which] looms behind every object and every event in the universe, silent, still, serene, and immovable like a mountain” sounds remarkably like the Dao. 
 

I think all inappropriate judgement would cease if someone sorted through all their emotional and mental baggage, thereby absolving themselves of any further need for ego to protect themselves - and I think this is actually possible to achieve. 

17 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

The term non-dualism (also the terms qualified non-dualism and duality) have been around for a very long time in traditional "eastern" ways!   Meaning a very long time before some or certain "western" intellectuals or wana-be types co-opted it and set up schools of dubious doctrine;  so does that now mean that all non-dualists are in the same pot as that?  I'd say no by a long shot; and granted proven precautions need be taken with teachers and schools but neither are all yogi's,  guru's, Christians, shrinks, etc..  in the same pots because some have co-opted aspects of those teachings for ego driven designs, or fanatical like misunderstandings,  thus we have some bad apples making the all the barrels look bad.   Such has come into play for just about every "way" that has come down the pike but to me that doesn't mean being a die-hard cynic about such situations is the best course to take, and I think its fair to ask where will such an attitude get a person?

 

From the same source that I quoted previously, there was also this paragraph. 

When the mind, having pure sattva as its characteristic remains attending to the aham sphurana, which is the sign of the forthcoming direct experience of the Self, the downward-facing heart becomes upward-facing, blossoms and remains in the form of that [the Self]; [because of this] the aforesaid attention to the source of the aham sphurana alone is the path. When thus attended to, Self, the reality, alone will remain shining in the centre of the Heart as ‘I am I’.

Bhagavan included the full text of verse 18 and 19 of Ulladu Narpadu Anubandham after ‘downward-facing heart’ in the original Tamil, but to include them again here would make the text rather cumbersome. However, it is clear that he was supplementing the material in those verses by saying that at the moment of realisation the closed downward-facing bud turns upwards, blooms, and remains in that state.

So, there are two key things that happen at the moment of realisation: the ‘tiny hole’ opens and remains permanently open, and the inverted bud turns upwards and blooms.

 I’ve been thinking about this for a couple of days, my mother saw a downward facing bud in my heart area a couple of years ago, she saw it turn upward, she saw the exact mechanism by which it managed this action, she then saw it bloom and like a lily open and close a few times, grow higher, then change from dark red to white, open slowly again, and reveal a miniature ‘me’ sitting inside. This was over quite a few days btw, and I recall briefly chatting to another TDB member about it at the time. I have mentioned before that my mother never had any idea what she was seeing, and to be honest the only way I have been able to start cobbling together any sort of map of the subtle energy body is largely by reading what other people have seen and said about it, and trying to start seeing the big picture of it all using my own logic. What I would say in relation to the above quote and how it relates to my path, is that this was not my realised Self, though perhaps it was an aspect of Self that hasn’t been realised yet in some way, perhaps the hole that he mentioned didn’t open concurrently, but what Ramana says at least leads to some small possible piece of this puzzle being explained in the slightest way. Just hearing that he has seen this helps me in a way. 
 

But just seeing some part of the subtle body isn’t even the final word, as understanding what it means in reality can only be done with the best information currently at hand and very strict logic. An analogy might be a person seeing something through a microscope when it was first invented, and really not having a clue about what they were seeing,  but over time and with a lot of people adding information to the puzzle, things will get named and how things actually work at a microscopic level will start to be understood. 

I relate this snippet precisely to explain why I am highly cynical about general claims of awakening and enlightenment and realisation from people who aren’t talking about these things and deny the existence of this level, preferring concepts of realisation beyond all physical and subtle levels of oneself. 
 

17 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Btw, there is a saying in Buddhism that I don't fully remember at the moment along the lines of: "no blame"  and also one in Taoism along the lines of not striving with others fosters no blame.

Any one should feel free to further propound on those sayings if they'd like to since its early in the morning here and I'm not that up on them anyway...

 

 

40 minutes ago, Bindi said:

The ‘anatomical’ model of enlightenment includes the idea that there is a channel from the Heart-centre to the brain (the jivanadi) through which the ‘I’-thought travels to the brain and back. Bhagavan accepted this and used it to critique traditional yoga practices which sought realisation by doing exercises that made the kundalini rise from the muladhara to the sahasrara chakra. He maintained that realisation would only result if the kundalini was brought down to the Heart centre

The way I see it kundalini doesn’t naturally rise above the heart centre unless it is interfered with by the mind and hard methods, until it is meant to. What I do agree with is that something important happens in the heart centre associated with kundalini. 

40 minutes ago, Bindi said:

through the jivanadi, and he sometimes added that since self-enquiry would achieve this automatically, specific yogic exercises to achieve this goal were not needed.
 

Both Lakshmana Swamy and Saradamma have spoken of experiencing this jivanadi (they call it the amritanadi) and both support, on the basis of their direct experience of this channel, Bhagavan’s assertion that the individual ‘I’ rises and falls through this channel. In Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Bhagavan was specifically asked if this jivanadi was real or not:

Question: Is the Jivanadi an entity or a figment of the imagination?

Bhagavan: The yogis say that there is a nadi called the jivanadi, atmanadi or paranadi. The Upanishadsspeak of a centre from which thousands of nadis branch off. Some locate such a centre in the brain and others in other centres. The Garbhopanishad traces the formation of the foetus and the growth of the child in the womb. The jiva is considered to enter the child through the fontanelle in the seventh month of its growth. In evidence thereof it is pointed out that the fontanelle is tender in a baby and is also seen to pulsate. It takes some months for it to ossify. Thus the jiva comes from above, enters through the fontanelle and works through the thousands of the nadis which are spread over the whole body. Therefore the seeker of Truth must concentrate on the sahasrara, that is the brain, in order to regain his source. Pranayama is said to help the yogi to rouse the kundalini sakti which lies coiled in the solar plexus. The sakti rises through a nerve called the sushumna, which is embedded in the core of the spinal cord and extends to the brain.

If one concentrates on the sahasrara there is no doubt that the ecstasy of samadhi ensues. The vasanas, that is the latencies, are not however destroyed. The yogi is therefore bound to wake up from the samadhi, because release from bondage has not yet been accomplished. He must still try to eradicate the vasanas in order that the latencies yet inherent in him may not disturb the peace of his samadhi. So he passes down from the sahasrara to the heart through what is called the jivanadi, which is only a continuation of the Sushumna. The sushumna is thus a curve. It starts from the solar plexus, rises through the spinal cord to the brain and from there bends down and ends in the heart. When the yogi has reached the heart, the samadhi becomes permanent. Thus we see that the heart is the final centre. (Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, talk no. 616)

My feeling from reading this is that Bhagavan is describing a real process, not something metaphorical or figurative.

 

https://www.davidgodman.org/the-role-of-the-heart-centre-in-self-realisation/

 

Double post

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

I'd say that last sentence is more or true if taken as or is based only on a conceptional/intellectual manifesto which most anyone could spin up. (and which btw. could have certain value at that level)  Anyway from many of your posts Bindi  it sounds like you're striving to put  most "non-duality" people or schools in the same and incomplete pot as that?  Whereas true non-duality realization (aka. as Self realization in the small lotus of the heart as pointed to in the Upanishads or some other teachings) does not and can not be limited in that way; namely empty of meaning and as an "unguided rocket fired off into space".

I am aware of a higher consciousness that has the potential to actively command forces within us that are currently locked away, milling around behind closed doors waiting for orders. Nonduality doesn’t acknowledge these forces, so it doesn’t offer a way to unlock them.  Nondualism is a sewn up system, any desire to shift away from it is philosophically defeated immediately as it decries desire, it is actually restrictive and if believed works against the unfolding of the subtle energy system. 
 

Another perspective on nonduality:

“In the Upanishads the [spiritual] heart is described as a secret place (guha), the cave of the heart. It is a small space, dahara akasha, in which the entire universe is held in seed form. Once we draw our awareness there we become one with all. We move from the individual to the universal.” https://www.vedanet.com/releasing-the-knots-of-the-heart-hridaya-granthi/

 But… if kundalini has previously become stable at the heart level, then mundane self-consciousness identification can shift to kundalini consciousness identification there. Identification as a higher consciousness. To me nondual awareness is missing the “I” passenger, an empty unguided rocket fired off into space. 

On 17/3/2024 at 7:55 AM, idiot_stimpy said:

Question for discussion, is a nondual realisation equivalent to a kundalini activation?

 

Are they both a means to the same end? 

 

A nondual seeing simulating the kundalini, or energetically stimulating the kundalini leading to a nondual seeing?

I think an authentic kundalini activation might lead to an authentic nondual awakening, I don’t think it works the other way round though. 

KUNDALINI AWAKENING BY SWAMI NIRANJANANANDA SARASWATI

Swami Niranjanananda Saraswati is from the lineage of the Bihar School of Yoga, which he also headed for many years. 

He has authored several books that have been published by the Bihar School of Yoga.

In one of his books – Prana and Pranayama – he talks about the experience of kundalini awakening which he calls the experience of cosmic prana. 

“…When the full potential of this energy (kundalini) is released, it travels up through the Sushumna Nadi, bringing about a complete metamorphosis of the individual. 

Cosmic prana and kundalini are synonymous terms. In awakening the kundalini, one unites with the cosmic prana.

At the time of the awakening, the two forces of prana and Chitta (mindset or state of mind) assume perfect balance within the individual and become one. 

The mind undergoes a state of fission and energy issues forth. 

There is an explosion of Satya, a moment of Truth, when one sees everything as luminous. 

One experiences oneself in every object of the universe, every person, leaf, and rock. 

The realization of cosmic prana is attained and the experience of separation dissolves. 

People who have experienced this union are called saints or liberated beings, as they have transcended duality by taming the infinite, universal energy within the microcosmic unit. 

The ultimate yoga is experienced at this level, where one discovers the abiding consciousness, sat-chit-ananda, truth, expansiveness, and beatitude…“

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Let's go back to the beginning:

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths

 

What we have here is the simplest expression of the Buddhist (or even (apparently unpopular) "non-dual") path.

Either you don’t understand or you’re being snide about non-duality being “apparently unpopular” since non-duality has the most powerful lobby group on this forum and is of course the most popular opinion hands down. Would it be so hard to just be honest and direct? 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

What is nirodha (cessation) the end of suffering? It isn't something difficult, impossible to understand, or unobtainable... it is fact familiar to everyone. What is it? It is emptiness, which is not some unobtainable, multi-lifetime goal, but instead something we all experience many times a day, though not in full realization. It isn't "dwelling", "contemplating", "desiring", or "abandoning". It doesn't require any tricks, difficult or ornate technical feats, or years long practices, it can be seen and pointed out by any suitable teacher. 

 

Any time you have been staring at a beautiful vista and your mind went quiet you have experienced it. How do you know if you are, or have experienced it? Ask yourself if there was suffering, or "self" in the moment of your perception, or was there just a simple joy and great stillness. 

 

How do you stop smoking? You stop putting cigarettes in your mouth. How do you stop dukka (suffering)? Let go of your craving, desire and attachment - learn to cultivate and rest in cessation.

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

Anyway , back to the kundalini .

 

Its not a metaphor at all , we all actually have a big snake curled up inside us  . It masquerades  as part of the large intestine so as to hide during x-rays .

 

The correct yogic procedure to activate it is to calmly sit in lotus , while holding a live rat with your teeth .

 

Now .... come on !   Who is gonna say I have no experience and read that one in a book ?

Isn’t this a bit of a straw man argument? You create a scenario that I never said and proceed to ridicule the entire concept. I remember I was first ridiculed by you when I first complained about @Jeff’s energy intrusions on me many years ago, I recall other people copied you then as well. 

14 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

You seem to think that my post about the central channel amounts to nothing more than parroting the views of others and that I have no direct experience of what I speak.  I suspect that the larger Bum community won´t have much to say about your opinion one way or the other, but, speaking personally, I find it deeply unpopular.

I have no doubt that you place attention on ‘the central channel’, and I’m more than willing to believe that it is calming.  But it’s true I would have a hard time believing you were drawn to this particular practice because you intuited that the subtle central channel existed, and independently of all other sources you chose to place your attention there. If I’m wrong in the above assumptions, my apologies. 
 

I also understand that my post made you feel bad, but I was responding to your (I believe dangerous) over-simplification of a very complex system, based on your view that nondual realisation is equivalent to kundalini activation. 
 

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

Borrowing broad concepts which originally and largely come from Hinduism's schools is one thing...but as far as assumptions (sounding like a dismissal?) per assumptions, well I'd caution about making them,  being that certain schools and lineages  have been practicing and developing associated yoga's for thousands of years which have fostered true and rare Kundalini masters and knowers of the Self which is beyond any form including the subtle body.  (and I'm not guessing on that) 

I find much of the general information about kundalini and the three main nadi’s to be worthwhile, but as you yourself said, they don’t agree on everything, and I’m certainly not going to believe one teaching over another until I have a very good reason to side with any particular opinion. In the meantime, post as much as you please from Saivite schools and sects, I’m not going to, after all, this thread is titled unpopular opinions, not popular scripture isn’t it?