Miffymog

To be honest, you may have dodged a bullet there

If you rest your arm on the table and then cover it up, then place a realistically looking fake arm where your arm could be if it were not hidden, then get someone with a brush to stroke the fake arm - you feel it.

The brain starts to get confused with reality and projects things that aren't actually happening. I can see how looking at a mirror could cause the brain to project the whole body outside of itself, and this could be really confusing for it (and bad).

27 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@ Miffymog

 

The same text is translated and discussed in the book I mentioned in my previous post.

 

Where is the free pdf you mention?

Hmmm - just tried the link and it didn't work for me either so I've attached my copy of the file to this post. Don't think the original poster will mind as it was his intention for people to have free access to it.

Neiye Booklet.pdf

In the middle of the herd is actually where you'll find the strongest cattle, they get the middle strength ones to go at the front and let the weakest bring up the rear - this then keeps them safest.

1 hour ago, OldDog said:

 

Was reading thru this thread because I was interested in topic suggested by the title. I am about to return to meditative practice and thought there might be some fresh insights here. 

 

Then I ran across @Daemon comment quoted above. Sort of stopped me in my tracks because I do not particularly think that the scientific method is a good approach for evaluation of wisdom traditions and practices. Not that it can't be done but that it probably not an approach that will yield useful results.

 

Science's approach to any problem/phenomena is to deal with it through the material. The approach seeks to identify physical/material events that can measured. Then it will constrain the system in which the events appear in various ways so that the behaviour can be observed under different conditions. All with the purpose of being able to demonstrate through the methods used that the results can be reproduced. If the results can not be reproduced, the phenomena being examined is discounted and the scientific community will turn its attention toward what can be measured. Any further reference to the problem or phenomena is met with skepticism and deemed not worthy of scientific investigation. Now, not all scientists behave in this manner. Scientists investigating in the realm of quantum mechanics, for example, have learned that because they are not able to reach a conclusion through scientific means just simply means that they have not yet figured out how to do it and place the phenomena in a box labled "Needing Further Evaluation".

 

I submit that wisdom traditions and practices deal with phenomena and events that are highly subjective, variable and do not present themselves consistently, at least to methods of observation preferred in science. Reproducibility is elusive. Research into wisdom traditions and practices is most often done on an individual and personal basis and typically finds its meaning in that realm. 

 

So, we should be cautious when someone approaches armed with the scientific method ... particulary those not mature in their discipline. There are science dogmatists out there just as there are religious dogmatists that are not accepting of other approaches. In listening to mature scientists talk, you will find the same reserved quiet demeanor that you find in the Dalai Llama, zen monks, daoist sages. 

 

Now, none of this contradicts @Daemon statement that there is no reason that science cannot be used ... but whether it should be used might give us pause.

 

Sorry for the late respose to this thread. But as I read through it I had what felt like a moment of clarity that was worth sharing.  

 

 

I happen to now be taking a more meditative approach to my standing and I was looking around for some inspiration. The Chan text's I used to use no longer seemed to hit the mark that well, so I've moved on to the Neiye. I've printed myself out a copy of the pdf in the link bellow and its sitting next to my bed to read before I go to sleep. It describes the state and qualities I'm looking for in my meditation really well and I'm looking forwards to researching this text more in the future.

18 minutes ago, andrew1139 said:

The music part kinda helped. Unfortunately, the cushions part doesnt really work that much, but I guess my inactivity made me weak. I just hope my body will be able to get better at it, since I cant really concentrate on relaxing. 

Anyhow, how long did it take to others to get used to the pose?

On 5 occasions over the last 15 years I'd follow a very simple pattern. I'd take up ZZ, stand through the discomfort waiting for the relaxing sensations to kick in, and they never would. Then after 6 months of going through this my motivation would go one morning and that was it for another 2 and a half years.

Then three years ago I really needed something to sort my life out and so I decided to commit myself to this, but I was going to do it different to all the other times. For all the other attempts, I would slowly take the duration of the stand up to 15 minutes ok. But because Lam Kam's book suggested that 20 minutes was a good time, I'd then try 20 myself, and I would always find it too difficult to do every day and give up.

So on this occasion I promised myself never to stand with any discomfort. Hence only 5 minutes for the first 4 months. If this is still hurts for you, then try out 3rd position with your hands holding the belly, or even just 1st with them by your side.  I'd still do the warm up exercises and a warm down afterwards just to give the practice a bit more substance. But I'd never stand through any pain or discomfort, knowing the strength would come. And it does, but with time.

There are muscles that you've probably never really used before that have to grow and strengthen, which really can take a surprisingly long time, so you have to be patient. This is one of the misleading things about Lam Kam's book. It suggests that the whole body relaxes into a pleasant state after 6 weeks. For me, this is terribly misleading and gives you totally unrealistic expectations.

Keep it short, keep in enjoyable, and be prepared to wait a long time to get the benefits.

There are a range of different muscles in the body that do different things. The two muscle groups to consider during ZZ are mobilising and posterial. Mobilising muscles are the ones that move you about and you have pretty good conscious control over, ie the biceps moves your arm and you have so much control over it, you can tense them at will.

Posterial muscles surround your body like a wet suit, tend to be smaller than the mobilising muscles and aren’t really under any conscious control. If you almost fall over, then you feel them tense up to keep you up right, but other than that, you don’t really know much about them.

By holding a static pose like you do in ZZ, you are strengthening these posterial muscles and after a lot of practice then a degree of control over them can be gained, but this is a long way down the road.

The point here, is that it is difficult to come up with any (moving) exercise that will help increase the ability of the posterial muscles to hold a static weight, because the main thing you’ll be doing is just strengthening mobilising muscles.

So all you can really do is be patient and the pain will subside. When I started out, I held the second positions for 5 minutes every day for 4 months, after that, I just timed how long I could hold it comfortably, which was 15 minutes, so that became my new duration for the next 6 months.

The most important thing in ZZ is to keep enjoying it. So if this means just holding the balloon for just 1 minute until it hurts, then that's fine. Because if you stick at it, that duration will naturally increase.

If you’d like to have a moving exercise, then the 8 borcades as described in the book are very good. They won’t reduce the pain you feel, but they are a very beneficial exercise.

I know little about bagua, but I used to do a lot of fencing in the past. So I reckon they'd have to step into the circle towards each other to perform an attack - is this allowed in bagua?

http://rumsoakedfist.org/

Has a list of instructors, maybe one of them can help.

48 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

edited for needless cheekiness

Don't worry, I doubt it would have bothered Starjumper. I actually enjoyed Rideforever's description of Winn's method of doing the MCO. I did spend a couple of months doing the MCO and definitely felt various different energies that could’t really put down to just imagination. But given I’m self taught, I realised I could quickly get out of my depth with such a practice so dropped it pretty fast.

I am now experimenting a little with moving energy with my hands because now I can actually feel something happen, which is new for me. But again, with out any proper instruction I think I’m just going to leave those energy flows to their own devices.

One of the aims of life is for it to be well balanced and well rounded, and this means not putting too much importance on any one thing.

Say you discover a spiritual practice that helps you become more balanced and improves your life, then this is great.

But if you start to attibute too much importance to this practice, you then become unbalanced and the benefit is lost.

There have been a lot times in my past when I have shared my skills and knowledge without any payment or exchange. I just helped those who were struggling because they were.

Actually, when you help people who are struggling, they are often not in a position to repay you in any way, except maybe with gratitude. So, is just gratitude sufficient?

9 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

When you’re good at something, never do it for free.

 

It is highly subjective about how good someone is though as we have seen with some people who call themselves good such as people who take a weekend seminar and suddenly also believe they are masters.

That's a bit black and white for me. Yes, if I'm good at my profession, then I want to be paid a commensurate salary.

But I think there is much benefit in volunteering some of your skills and talents for free.

Your breath slows down.

You slow your breath down.

2 very different statements. BFK puts so much emphasis on the benefits of a ‘slow breath’, he implies the second.

You could just follow a simple seated meditation practice where you just follow your breath for 3 months at zero cost.

Or, if you would like to have some extra motivation, can afford the price and would like to learn a bit more, go with it and see what happens.

My own path was to step away from the MCO and instead concentrate on Zhan Zhuang. The book I'd most recommend is 'The Way of Energy' by Lam Kam Chuen. Two points I'd make though is don't feel in any rush to get to a 20 minute stand, he says you should aim for that in about 6 weeks - I took a year. Secondly, the positve effects do take a long time, so you'll need to be patient.

I know little about both, but more details on your practice might help others to help you ...

What do you actually do in order to store chi?

How much time a day do you spend doing it?

How long in weeks/months/years have you been doing it?

If your only practice was to store chi in your LDT by putting your awareness there, then I would not have thought you'd get these sensations, so there might be other things you are doing that are prompting them. What might these other things be?

Booo Gerard

I’m currently sticking to just one practice and I'm very happy with how its going. I have recently increased my ZZ stand up to 30 minutes and am now experiencing some nice new energy flows that are the result of a daily commitment.

But, I’d never have discovered ZZ with out this information age.

Whether someone commits to one thing for a long time or not is quite a bit down to their own character and whether they’ve come to the realisation that the more you focus on one thing the more results you get.

5 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

I've made a pdf version of the Neiye based on the translation I've posted in my PPD and attached it here.

 

Neiye Booklet.pdf 

Lovely - thank you.

Mildly off topic

The unexamined life is not worth living - Socrates

Curiously enough, I'm currently living as unexamined life as possible. This is quite unlike me where in the past I've always enjoyed looking deeper into life and it's mysteries. The consequence in my practice is that I've given up all seated meditations and during my ZZ rather than maintain any awareness of what's going on in my body, I'll busily plan my day or sing to myself.

As for my moving practices, rather then concentrating on relaxing or focusing on what my body's doing, I'm just shaking my body or swinging my arms.

Arguably it's just a phase I'm going through because, as I said, this is not like me at all.

Not looking more deeply into life is possibly how the majority of people live their lives. It's also not prevented me from having a qi gong practice, I've just changed what I do.

I mention all this in this thread because discussions about 'if it's the mind that generates reality' and whether 'we are spiritual beings having a material' are, for the time being, issues that my mind is closing itself off to. They all occupy a certain headspace that I'm currently turning off.

Hmmmm - not exactly sure where this leads me and this post does not really go anywhere, but it has been my response to the other nice posts in this thread.

8 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Best to try to remain in the present.

 

Curiously enough – I’m currently trying to avoid the present like the plague

All the advice I'd give is based on experiences I've had by not taking advice.

So, the only advice I could give my younger self is, don't listen to any advice.

But, if my younger self was not to take this advice, would he actually in fact then be taking this advice … ?

Time travel sure is confusing!

As is some people’s advice!

A brilliant idea for a thread Learner – especially as I’m looking to expand my routine and these videos are exactly what I need. Thank you.

And so here are some videos that are close to my heart ...

Just a link to a similar thread where some of these issues have also been discussed. I read an article where some one had a brain scan while on LSD. They found the effect of the drug was to restrict blood flow the areas of the brain which deals with who we think we are and where we think we are. The result was to diminish ones sense of self and location.

Edit - although I do get quite drunk twice a week, so each to his own I guess.

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