Michael Sternbach

The original one, yes. The newer one, set up on Slack, should still function. (But I haven't checked in a while.)

57 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

How would I know if I have a lower dan tien or not?

 

(It strikes me that this question is a little like asking how much a certain item costs at a fancy restaurant: if ya have to ask, you can't afford it.)

Expanding on my previous reply...

Of course, you could always do the old "lower-your-centre-of-gravity" trick for starters.

Stand and breathe as you normally do. Have a sufficiently strong person lift you a few inches off the ground with ease.

Next, breathe into your lower abdomen (while physiologically incorrect, that's how it will feel, anyway). Relax your body while keeping it upright. "Make yourself heavy" by visualizing your centre of gravity well below your navel.

Once you feel this (and take your time, initially, it may take a minute or so to get there), ask your mate again to "give you  lift."

Chances are, this time, you will observe their face turning red, their breath coming in gasps, as they will give it their best effort, to no avail. 🥵

That's when you should have learnt a thing or two about your LDT. 🙂

28 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

How would I know if I have a lower dan tien or not?

 

(It strikes me that this question is a little like asking how much a certain item costs at a fancy restaurant: if ya have to ask, you can't afford it.)

LOL!

Everyone has all three Dantians, though they may not be active or perceptible to the same degree in different individuals.

The only way to actually know you have an LDT is to directly experience it. A common sensation being the sense of an energy ball in your lower abdomen.

Mental and physical focus on it, appropriate breathing, practices like zazen and MCO should help you feel your LDT.

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Same with sword .  I used to teach ;  dont swing the sword around  chopping up stuff , most of the movement should be where you 'place' your body, how you move , etc .   Watch a good classical Jap sword movie (one where the actor is actually trained well in the art ) then watch a bad one (often a western modern version ) where the sword is swung, flung, and 'swished' around  ..... just like ... someone has forgotten everything about proper movement due to 'confidence' of having a weapon  and relying on that weapon as a thing itself a not as an extension of body technique . The art of sword and indeed one single cut is about using the whole body . Or even ; its about where you 'move your hara' to .

 

There is one very quick  defense I demonstrate against a classic  defend and counter move , nothing moves; sword, hands, arm ,  I just step and turn and everything is in the right position at the end of the move .

 

No 'hacking' needed , body position within the fight  / melee , minimal movement , taking 'direct action' and right placement .

 

In a way , one needs to read others ki  .... their 'intentions' before their physical movement follows , and in a 'melee'  against several opponents , that 'psychic force seems like an engulfing octopus , the master swordsman can read the shape of that octopus and move accordingly about and within  it .

Quoting Takuan Soho: The Unfettered Mind--Writings from a Zen Master to a Master Swordsman:

If ten men, each with a sword, come at you with swords slashing, if you parry each sword without stopping the mind at each action, and go from one to the next, you will not be lacking in a proper action for every one of the ten. Although the mind act ten times against ten men, if it does not halt at even one of them and you react to one after another, will proper action be lacking? But if the mind stops before one of these men, though you parry his striking sword, when the next man comes, the right action will have slipped away. Considering that the Thousand-Armed Kannon2 has one thousand arms on its one body, if the mind stops at the one holding a bow, the other nine hundred and ninety-nine will be useless. It is because the mind is not detained at one place that all the arms are useful. As for Kannon, to what purpose would it have a thousand arms attached to one body? This form is made with the intent of pointing out to men that if their immovable wisdom is let go, even if a body have a thousand arms, every one will be of use. When facing a single tree, if you look at a single one of I its red leaves, you will not see all the others. When the eye is not set on any one leaf, and you face the tree with nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves are visible to the eye without limit. But if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there. One who has understood this is no different from the Kannon with a thousand arms and a thousand eyes.

1 hour ago, Dainin said:

 

Many of the perpetrators of those atrocities claimed to be followers of Christ's teachings and many believed they were acting on his behalf. If you think he is peaceful and tolerant, read the Book of Revelation.

In my view, the Book of Revelation, like some other Apocalyptic literature, should be metaphorically interpreted. It tells the story of a conflict between divine truth and satanic deception, and vividly illustrates the consequences of following either one or the other. This isn't to say that it may not at the same time reflect real events, but in doing so, it wouldn't necessarily be referring to the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

That being said, regarding the role the character of Jesus does play in the narrative, it's interesting to note that this is actually quite open to interpretation and the subject of an ongoing debate. For a careful reading reveals that the author uses traditional symbols in an unexpected manner that subtly, but significantly changes their meaning.

See for instance:

Quote

The irony is that, while

 Revelation 19 is frequently appealed to as the clearest example of Jesus engaging in literal violence, in reality it does not depict a single violent act.

John utilizes traditional warfare imagery to imaginatively express this final battle between truth and deception, but, as usual, he completely transforms this imagery in the process. To cite one example, John applies to Jesus Isaiah’s macabre vision of Yahweh as a warrior wearing robes that are covered with blood (Isa 63:1-3; Rev. 19:13). In Isaiah’s vision, however, Yahweh is stained with the blood of his enemies whom he has trampled like grapes in a winepress in his “day of vengeance.” By contrast, Jesus’ robes are blood stained before he goes into battle, and the stains are from his own spilled blood as well as the blood of his martyred servants. It represents, once again, that Christ and his followers win by having their own blood shed rather than by shedding the blood of others.

Also in keeping with traditional apocalyptic symbolism, John depicts Christ wielding a “sharp sword” to “strike down the nations” (19:15). But it is extremely important to notice that the sword that Jesus wields comes out of his mouth (Rev. 19:15, 21; cf. 1:16; 2:26; 3:26). His weapon, clearly, is nothing other than the truth he speaks, which is why the title he rides into battle with is “Faithful and True” (19:11).

Finally, a word should be said about John’s lurid depiction of Jesus on a white horse “treading on the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty” (19:15). This is not John’s first use of this winepress imagery. The “great winepress of God’s wrath” is first mentioned in chapter 14 (vv. 19-20), and in this context John has significantly nuanced the details of the traditional imagery (See Is 63). While the traditional imagery depicts sinners being crushed like grapes because of their wickedness, John here depicts grapes being crushed simply because they are ready to be harvested (vv. 15,18). Moreover, while the traditional imagery identifies God’s judgment with the crushing of wicked grapes, John identifies God’s judgment with people drinking the wine that is formed from ripened crushed grapes (v.10). The crushed grapes express the wrath of God not because they are crushed, but because they form “the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath” (14:10; cf. 14: 8-9; 16:6; 17:6). God’s wrath is thus directed not toward the grapes, as it is in the traditional use of this imagery, but toward the unrepentant who are made to drink the wine that is a by-product of these grapes being crushed.

When we put this together with John’s pervasive theme that believers overcome by their willingness to be martyred, it suggests that the blood that flows from the winepress of God’s fury is not the blood of God’s enemies, but the blood of his servants whom these enemies murdered.

https://reknew.org/2016/05/final-battle-revelation/

@ChiDragon

Let me summarise:

• Chi (whether prenatal or postnatal) is a microscopic substance, therefore it should consist of some kind of minute particles--not unlike the particles studied by physicists, although not necessarily the same.
• It is a basic unit that makes up the human body. This, too, suggests some kind of particle. According to physics, matter is made of particles--but again, note that they may not be the same kind of particle, since physics talks about physical matter, whereas chi is a more subtle kind of matter which in turn becomes the foundation of physical substance in my understanding. 
• It exists in the universe, so it is not bound to a (human) body. It is also found in the air we breathe and in the food we eat ("rice"), and then becomes postnatal chi as it is processed by our organism.

Alright?

On 29.9.2023 at 6:41 PM, ChiDragon said:

I knew this was coming when the word spiritual was mentioned. Well，there is a difference between spirit and spiritual. Spiritual is something to inspire or encourage oneself is all in the mind. It has nothing to do with spirits.

What made me bring up the question was you saying that you believe in the existence of dragons. So in your view, what are, or were, dragons if not some kind of spirits?

8 hours ago, Apech said:

Well I'm back from Bussaco and what is more lovely than to write about Egypt?

 

The Book of the Dead has an odd history which unlike modern books begins with less structure and becomes more and more consolidated over time.  The version which the pic is from is from quite a late version.  The earliest from the late 17th and early 18th dynasties were little more than collections of certain chapters (sometimes called spells) with associated vignettes (pictures).  At the time of Khonsu - mes they were producing versions with almost no writing and entirely made of pictures.  They are called 'mythological papyri by Egyptologists for no more reason than they like to give things good sounding names.  The Egyptians called the Book of the dead - the Chapters of Coming Forth by Day (and living after death).  The theme was a very special one - which will go some way to explaining the pic.

 

Some of the Chapters of the BoD as well as other New Kingdom underworld texts say that they were 'good on earth' as well as for the death.  So there was clearly some use for the living in them.  My thesis ( which most Egyptologists would not accept) is that they describe a form of what we might call energy work - something like neidan perhaps, thoughh of course quite different in some ways.

 

At the basis of the BoD is two themes - one is the cycle of the sun and the other is the god of the dead Osiris.  The sun was understood as being born anew each morning, growing old in the evening and then descending into the underworld which was the realm ruled and judged by Osiris.  At the sixth hour of the night the soul of the Sun and the soul of Osiris 'embraced' - the effect of which was to waken up Osiris from his deep sleep and also to refresh and re-nergise the sun in preparation for the new day.  This cycle was seen as eternal.  An eternal cosmological cycle.

 

On dying a person became an Osiris and would be called Osiris N (where N was their name) - so the dead person also had an opportunity of uniting with the cycling solar energy and renewing himself - although there was a lot more to this than that one event.  The journey through the underworld - which was called the Duat (a name which means star-realm) - was fraught with dangers and pitfalls and so a guide was needed.  This is why the Egyptians mapped the underworld in texts like the AmDuat and gave people the Book of the Dead as a collections of protective spells and guidance on how to traverse this difficult journey.

 

The Duat was not only accessible on death but also through dreams, in shamanic trans states and so on - we would also say in meditation.  So in effect the Duat was the inner world which we can travel through in life as well as after death.

 

You can see a pic of the whole papyrus here:

 

https://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/detail.aspx?id=4574

 

a downloadable book about the whole collection of texts from this period can be found here:

 

https://archive.org/details/PiankoffRambovaMythologicalPapyriTexts

 

but beware many 'mistakes' therein.

 

Khonsu-mes is described on pgs 143 and 147  -

 

however oddly for them (because they are otherwise quite good) they read it in reverse order making the overall meaning totally obscured.

 

If anyone is still interested I will post more

 

 

 

 

You do have my attention.

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

You've just opened a can of worms.

Well, I'm kind of notorious for doing that...

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The characters 炁 and 氣 both have their own separate meaning. The former is a substance was not touched by fire. The letter is 气(chi) and 米(rice) becomes 氣(chi). Chi cannot be translated with one meaning. Unfortunately, when the westerners see the character, immediately it was assumed as energy. Thus it becomes a very narrow definition. To define chi requires a new thread to discuss it.

It would definitely be interesting to discuss the concept of chi based on its Chinese characters!

I am myself not too happy with equating it with 'energy.' At any rate, chi isn't energy in the way of light and other forms of energy understood in modern mainstream physics.

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Your question about dragon. I think it is spiritual. It is because the imaginary dragon is fierce and powerful. People tend to think that they want to be as powerful as dragon.

 

So first you stated that you don't believe in spirits, and yet you believe in the existence of dragons as you said here. And now you are telling me that dragons are actually of a spiritual nature.

I must say, I am a bit confused now. How do you reconcile those different views which seem to contradict each other? 🤔

22 hours ago, old3bob said:

"And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us..."  so ok and to break the chains that bind us, which includes the idea of us not repeating the same problems over and over again with more and more karma and thus  learn from and admit our mistakes, 

Agreed, as far as it goes.

22 hours ago, old3bob said:

along with the question of how much rationalization or slack should I cut for myself and for our undeniable joint wee wee's, being that none of us are total islands.

Shortcomings are of two kinds: commission and omission. 

And then there are those past things we did or didn't do, which we aren't exactly proud of. Although we may have had the best of intentions. 

In either case, admitting and learning from mistakes is key (as you said). Beating ourselves up over them is not!

And to break free from destructive behaviour patterns sometimes requires taking baby steps. And this includes the guilt trap, which tends to paralyze us in our ability to be of servive to others and ourselves. 

On 28.9.2023 at 3:24 AM, ChiDragon said:

 

Spirits means diety, ghost, devil or any spiritual thing that is not human.

 

I recognize what chi 气 is but not in a matter of belief. I believe there are/were dragons existed.

Great.

How would you define chi?

And do you consider to be dragons physical or spiritual beings?

I feel that it's important to try and clarify our views regarding these questions before we would delve deeper into our individual perspectives on Life, the Universe, and Everything. 🙂

2 hours ago, roamthevoid said:

When I take cannabis and do Dan Tian meditation, I can feel a large area of fluid energy bobbing around in my body. It’s hard to control but if I try hard I can control it and compress it into a much smaller area into the Dan Tian. 
 

But I was afraid if I held it in its compressed state it could overpower my meridians and explode therefore cause damage, so I quickly relinquished control of it. 
 

Side topic - my body was also shaking and it felt like I was in 2nd Jhana (strong Piti (rapture) and Sukha (bliss)) but if I tune my mind I could drop the Piti and (seemingly) enter 3rd Jhana (without Piti but Sukha remains). 
 

I seemed to also be able to enter the 4th Jhana (Sukha dropped, equanimity is developed) by further refining my mental state but tbh I’m afraid of 4th Jhana because I don’t want to alter reality or my life by accident. (You can change reality in 4th Jhana) 
 

(Could totally be my delusion on the Jhana part, granted) 

 

So my question is, has anyone heard of, or even had experience of, using cannabis to build Dan Tian container or gather Chi to Dan Tian? 

The use of psychotropic herbs has a long tradition in shamanic cultures (in the broad sense), and this includes cannabis. The latter was particularly popular with Daoist cultivators, amongst others. I don't agree with the opinion that categorically denies their utility on a spiritual journey--well-intended as it may be.

As you have found, cannabis can  activate and intensify your chi flow. It can therefore serve as an agent in an internal alchemical process. However, it's important to remember that, in alchemy, every 'solve' should be balanced by a 'coagula.' Adequate phases of grounding, thereby integrating the increased energy flow, should not be neglected.

The trouble with cannabis and other psychoactive substances is that they tend to be addictive. In many cases, their use becomes a habit with a life of its own--rather than a ritual done with awareness and a clear sense of purpose.

In this case, you may find that the herb depletes your energy, while its initial positive effects are felt less. Over time, this can entail various undesirable effects, both physically and psychologically. The negative impact on your energy system can become chronic and difficult to fix--I have seen and felt it so many times in members of a particular subculture. 

And BTW, it's not just the herb that can potentially be hazardous, but also the tobacco that it is often mixed with for application.

So to summarise: if you choose to use cannabis in one of its forms for cultivation purposes, do so with unwavering awareness! Make sure you stay in charge of that powerful spirit you summoned; don't let it gradually take you over and control your mind and actions.

I will add that consciously working with your subtle energy system (as mentioned in your OP) is a good way to go. Although it can come with its specific challenges, especially when flow is intensified but yet impeded in certain areas. Try and work out the issues. Avoid both fear and haste. Use the power of visualization and emphasize mental clarity. 

Good luck on your way! 🙂

Michael 

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

none of that was news to me Michael,  Btw the word "you" was overused above as Mark might say...

Mine own sinc'rest apologies if 't be true mine own thoughtlessness offend'd thee! i shalt hencef'rth avoideth this mod'rn naughty w'rd altogeth'r in our furth'r exchanges!

Quote

anyway fancy sounding or philosophical excuses that don't cut the mustard in this world or the others are not enough...

Bid me, what wouldst cutteth the mustard in thy esteem'd opinion? unf'rgiving (self-) accusations and harsh judgement p'rhaps?

1 minute ago, Apech said:

I’m not little  - I’m a medium sized patronizing squirt.

I prefer to think of you as a cat gone wild.

21 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I thought that means I don't believe in spirits.

If I say I don't believe in spirits, would that change in meaning?

What do you mean by 'spirits'?

Also, do you believe in chi? Do you believe in dragons?

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

If I told you the great pyramid was a giant vacuum cleaner would you believe me?

More of a giant dust collector. 😄

On 20.9.2023 at 12:29 AM, Michael Sternbach said:

I beg to differ. Yes, Laotzu is a naturalist. But he isn't an atheist. Unless perhaps you would have a particular definition of God in mind.

On 20.9.2023 at 1:20 AM, Daniel said:

And that's precisely what I was hoping to discuss at some point in this thread.  Thank you for saying this.

You're welcome. Glad to discuss this further.

On 20.9.2023 at 1:20 AM, Daniel said:

a-theist.  theos.  greek.  are we talking about a greek god concept?  if so, then I think we can all agree that Laotze would be completely atheist.

No, I don't think so. I don't see Plato's God as different from the Dao.

On 20.9.2023 at 1:13 AM, ChiDragon said:

I don't believe in God. However, I can talk about your God with you.

There's just one God. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you speak of Dao, Jehovah, Vairochana, Brahman... They are all but different ways to refer to the ultimate source of being.

On 20.9.2023 at 1:13 AM, ChiDragon said:

Do you believe in Tao?

Dao isn't something you would have to believe in. I am interested in knowledge, not belief.

18 minutes ago, oak said:

 

Yes, Apech we want to buy the damn vacuum cleaner 😆

Khonsu mes = consumers? 🤔

7 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

I'd say ideally yes, but not ideally no, as in repeating mistakes without good or reasonable excuses...for instance industrial accidents that never should have happened but someone was careless even though they knew better.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but humans make mistakes--and we actually tend to make the same mistakes again and again.

Why is this? Because our thoughts, feelings, and actions are determined by deeply ingrained patterns. You can attribute these to your upbringing, to your karmic backstory, to the astrological influences you were born under, and so on... Insights gained from each of the different models may be useful and, in some cases, sufficient to effect change, however, none of them is 'true' in an ultimate and exclusive sense. Rather, they pertain to different levels of patterning which all reflect each other.

All the while, with some part of yourself, you may be aware that there could be a better, more lightful way of viewing and doing things. And yet you feel trapped in the karmic shell that was created inside and outside yourself. 

Kudos to you if you manage to kindle that spark of higher understanding within yourself until you manage to break free from your former limitations eventually! In all likelihood, it won't be an easy process, let alone a linear one.

But hey... The way is the goal!

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

Going by the math of karma everything is perfect or as it should be for a moment, a very short moment being that all things and energies are in constant flux and states of change which does not leave out relative reality or beings in time and space...so I think it safe to say things are constantly improving per evolution or going down per devolution and then probably going back again.  If one exercises no relative will along with hard gained degrees of wisdom then they will be thrown about like be a leaf in the wind, but if they do excise whatever degree of will and wisdom they have then they can hopefully anchor and center themselves for the better.  So profound sounding sayings like, "nothing else could have been done differently"  are full of holes imo.  Btw, beyond time and space is a different ball game.

Yes, in retrospect we may see that we could have dealt with this or that situation more wisely. However, what we tend to forget is that we had to develop that kind of wisdom first -- and that past situation we couldn't handle better may well have been part of that process.

While I am not one to deny the reality and power of free will, I feel it's adequate to say that, all in all, we did the best we could back then, given where and what we were. If in the meantime, we became more sophisticated in our insight and understanding, we deserve to give ourselves a pat on the back.

In other words, try before you buy!

23 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 Laotze is an atheist and naturalist. He uses ghost(spirit)  as example in people's language to explain so people who would understand.

I beg to differ. Yes, Laotzu is a naturalist. But he isn't an atheist. Unless perhaps you would have a particular definition of God in mind.

19 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Does it have agency?  Does it make choices?

Seen in its entirety, no. Not of its own accord. It's essentially a medium for the exchange of information between the things--on all levels--that set it in motion. Much in the way  water and air can carry waves.

19 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Does it have preferences?  Affiinities?  Aversions?

Insofar it can be attracted and accumulated by certain things and places, yes. Which is a matter of resonance, though, not of conscious choice.

19 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 When you say conscious, to me that means self-awareness, but, basically nothing else.  Is that what you mean by conscious?

It has a passive or receptive kind of consciousness that simply passes on what it has been imbued with. So (self-)awareness would sound about right.

On 18.9.2023 at 8:48 PM, ChiDragon said:

I am not familiar with the World Spirit. Would you please give a little explanation about it. Thank you.

The World Spirit (sometimes used interchangeably with "the World Soul", although the two terms can refer to different things) is an all-encompassing field of subtle energy whence everything originates. It is considered to be alive and conscious in the ancient Natural Philosophy. 

It can also be seen as the sum total of the individual spirits of things, beings, celestial bodies etc.

Thus it interconnects all things. It even interconnects "Heaven and Earth".

Typical symbols for the World Spirit, especially in Western alchemy, include the dragon and the snake. And also the hermaphrodite, representing its dual and thereby mediating nature.