Taoist Texts

Taoist Texts translates 玄中玄as “a darkness in mystery” and Richard Wilhelm translates 玄中玄 as “still deeper secret of the secret.”  Both translations sound great literally.

 

But, I don’t think that these translations reflect the meaning of Master Lü Dongbin’s expression adequately.  Are there any comments, input and suggestions? 

Apparently none. What does Ms Gonet says on this?

I really appreciate this authors efforts to decode the meaning of the Secret of the Golden  Flower. So what I am understanding is there is somewhat of a general verbiage used to describe Internal Alchemy Practices? Is that correct?

Yes it is correct with one IMHO difference: it is a very precise verbiage. May be an inpatient reader may feel it to be general or vague because he or she did not take time to find out the precise definition of each word.

This author does not address the lesser Kan and Li circulation that is  required foundational work  prior to the Greater  Circulation of Kan and Li.

may be in his method it is not required who knows?

 All these people are  just using the same terminology with offering any evidence of their personal experience.

well, some of them do offer that:

6. Signs of Verification of Turning Around the Light

 What I am seeing in all this writing is a lack of understanding of what the secret is. Big clue from Xuanming Bold Highlighting the RECEPTIVE in the poem. I have a question. What is the  Heart of Heaven? Where is it located and what is its function in the activation of the  energetic Anatomy of the  Human body? What element governs the Heart of Heaven. What location the Heart of Heaven in the Post Natal  anatomy of the energetic body?  In the circulation of the light in the  Golden Flower practice, what  roll does the violet lady play ? How does the violet lady affect the prenatal or unborn original spirit in the  Golden Flower Practice? 

Those are very good questions. IMHO they will not be answered publicly and outside of teacher-student framework.

 

Do you really think that 入 is not a character? Or maybe you think the author couldn't properly count? How come you translate 5 characters as 4 words, skipping one of them (important one by the way)? 

 

Any why you cannot  translate 气穴 anyhow else? "

 

Simple question: what enters what (and when)? 

• Once Nasreddin was invited to deliver a sermon. When he got on the pulpit, he asked, Do you know what I am going to say? The audience replied "no", so he announced, I have no desire to speak to people who don't even know what I will be talking about! and left.
• The people felt embarrassed and called him back again the next day. This time, when he asked the same question, the people replied yes. So Nasreddin said, Well, since you already know what I am going to say, I won't waste any more of your time! and left.
• Now the people were really perplexed. They decided to try one more time and once again invited Nasreddin to speak the following week. Once again he asked the same question – Do you know what I am going to say? Now the people were prepared and so half of them answered "yes" while the other half replied "no". So Nasreddin said Let the half who know what I am going to say, tell it to the half who don't, and left.^[21]

  . Your assistance in learning how to  read the hexagrams from this poem would  be welcome water  to a thirsty woman. 

Well luckily the symbolism of the hexgs in the poem has been explained already by the author of the poem.

This poem is a part of this text

The Secret of the Golden Flower (Chinese: 太乙金華宗旨; pinyin: Tàiyǐ Jīnhuá Zōngzhǐ) is a Chinese Taoist classic about neidan (inner alchemy) meditation.

with a passage following the poem, that kinda-sorta tells what the poem should mean. Somebody at this link  tried to translate it adding the hexgs to the text for clarity;)

1. Master Lu-tsu said:

Taoist immortals have left behind a secret spell for freedom.

Through four (Chinese) characters the spirit crystallizes in the original cavity.

In the sixth month white snow is suddenly seen to fly.

At the third watch the sun’s disk is radiant.

In water blows the wind of Xun (Wind) ☴.

Traveling in Heaven, one returns to Earth

and absorbs the virtue of Kun (Earth)☷.

And the still deeper secret of the secret:

The land that is nowhere, that is the true home.

2. The poem above expresses all the mysteries. The essence of the Great Way are the words action through non-action . Only non-action prevents a man from becoming entangled in forms and images. Only action through non-action prevents a man from sinking into indifferent emptiness and dead nothingness. The work of action through non-action is just focusing around the center; the essential mechanism of action through non-action is in the two eyes. The two eyes are like the handle of the big dipper, which manages creation and operates yin and yang.    

3. From beginning to end, the great medicine depends on one thing: the metal in the midst of the water, that is, the lead in the water-region. Before, we spoke of the turning the light around, indicating thereby the initial mechanism to control the inside from outside. This is to aid one in obtaining the Master. It is for pupils in the beginning stages. They go through the two lower transitions in order to gain the upper one. Now as things gradually become clear and one becomes familiar with the mechanism, Heaven no longer withholds the Way, but reveals the ultimate truth. Disciples, cherish it, cherish it. More effort, more effort!

 

 

Hey. Its not that bad but not great either. It probably manages to transmit the general feel of the original for the general reader, but it is inadequate for a practitioner's needs.

 

 

Actually me too. That said - he is not an expert on the specific subject matter.

Translating would be my pleasuer.

 

(for best results should  rapped to the Fresh Prince of Bel-air theme song)

 

 

Qi. Lair. Spirit. and Congeal.

Four characters only, this to see and feel:

 

Then return to absorb

The virtues of the receptive.

You and Cleary arrive at 4 and 4 doubled in your translation. Four as , you know is earth, the Square , yellow etc. In TCM this is the  Stomach / Spleen. In our  practices it is the Stomach  / Pancreas.

  Earth over Earth in the Yijing is hexagram number 2 often called the Receptive, Natural Response,

The author makes two hexagram allusions

first the wind is characterized as 巽

then the bounty is attributed to 坤 64

A gentle (SUN) breeze will blow, from within the sea,

Coming down from Heavens,  an edible (KUN) bounty.

What was your reason for choosing Lair?

Mainly the dictionary. Xue 穴

(1)  A cave, cavern, grotto: 洞穴 a cave;

孔穴，穴隙 a hole (in wall, ground);

穴居，穴處 live in caves.

(2)  A den: 巢穴 robbers' den;

鼠穴 a rat hole.

(3)  A grave: 墓穴.

(4)  Certain parts of human body containing vital arteries, such as armpit: 穴道，點穴 vital points recognized in karate and acupuncture.

Is specifically an inhabitable hole. There is somebody inside and as you can see, that somebody hides there (thieves, rats etc) hence the lair.

 

 

The Secret of Freedom  (Translation by Thomas Cleary)

 

Jadelike purity has left a secret of freedom

In the lower world:

Congeal the spirit in the lair of energy,

And you'll suddenly see

White snow flying in midsummer,

The sun blazing in the water at midnight.

Going along harmoniously,

You roam in the heavens,

Then return to absorb

The virtues of the receptive.  

???

???

 

Master Lü Dongbin‘s original poem is the following:

 

逍遥诀

 

玉清留下逍遥诀，

四字凝神入气穴；

六月俄看白雪飞，

三更又见日轮赫；

水中吹起籍巽风，

天上游歸食坤德；

更有一句玄中玄，

无何有乡是真宅。

 

Hi Taoist Texts,

What do you think about the translation of this poem by Thomas Cleary? 

Hey. Its not that bad but not great either. It probably manages to transmit the general feel of the original for the general reader, but it is inadequate for a practitioner's needs.

I respect Thomas Cleary and appreciate his work. 

Actually me too. That said - he is not an expert on the specific subject matter.

But I am surprised this translation was not completed- the last two lines were not translated.  It seems that he does not understand the meaning of the two lines.  Actually the last two lines in this poem are very important.  Is it possible for you to translate this poem with your own version or at least to translate the last two lines and explain the meanings of the last two lines? 

Translating would be my pleasuer.

(for best results should  rapped to the Fresh Prince of Bel-air theme song)

This is a secret to travelling free

Sent down from high by the Jade Purity.

Qi. Lair. Spirit. and Congeal.

Four characters only, this to see and feel:

In the hot summer a snowfall thick and white,-

Red sun at midnight shiny, red and bright.

A gentle breeze will blow, from within the sea,-

Coming down from Heavens,  an edible bounty.

One important phrase which must be asserted

‘There is a darkness in mystery inserted’.

Who will be able that darkness find,

Will everywhere in The True reside.

 I have a poem I was given 2 years ago  near midnight in the year that might help illuminate this . 

Hi. Would be great if you share!

HI Hobo,

 so subtly an advertisement link with the disclaimer "they even teach white folk" so to speak. Wow!

sure;) ...come one come all. every color that is with a shade of green.

  r u game hobo?

Hello;) Sure! This morning i have a train to catch, so will get back to you guys the day after. Have fun meanwhiles

Even although I was having arguments with Taoist Texts (the sophist) in the past, I have to admit that it is sad seeing him so defeated and writing this kind of bukowskian poem, fortunately English is not my mother tongue, so  the disgusting effect was weak.

Well, a year ago I've asked Taoist Texts to tell us his sad story, why he hates Daoists so much and Neidan in particular. After a year he got a courage to tell. The usual Taobum's  story: right intention in the beginning, bad fate - learning from a charlatan, getting nothing and became frustrated , nihilistic and sarcastic.

I am probably living in some alternative universe from these two guys, the taobum.com being the astral portal that joins the two worlds.

 Maybe  my intellectual mind cannot make the leap from this  attempt to describe to standardized TCM description because I have not read the right books. Any directions or pointer from anyone reading would be greatly appreciated by me. 

I would venture to say its not just  reading the right books, it is also accepting what they say.

As to your very impressive (as Xuanming very correctly noticed) spontaneous movements, a locus classicus  is here :

http://wenshuchan-online.weebly.com/uploads/9/4/8/2/9482304/the-secrets-of-chinese-meditation-self-cultivation-by-mind-cont-1.pdf

pages 205-208 of pdf (195-198 numbered).

That looks so beautiful relaxing and lovely. Is the man in the video your teacher? Do you have classes you attend or are you a solo practitioner? Do you teach this form? I am very interested in  the poetry of your words describing your  practice.  

its gonna be blunt poetry this time;))

That looks so beautiful relaxing and lovely. Is the man in the video your teacher?

no i dont know him, its just a video from which it can be learned a thing or two. You see i dont believe in live teachers. This gentlemen posessess a secret to his art that took him his whole life to obtain. Why would he teach it to me? There is no possible reason to do so.

Do you have classes you attend or are you a solo practitioner?

Long time ago i attended some classes just to make suer i am not missing on anything a teacher can give me. It turned out i did not.

Do you teach this form?

Not really. The secret to it is so counterintuitive and the form is so useless in the short-term that there is no demand, which is just as well.

I am very interested in  the poetry of your words describing your  practice.

sorry;)

my vote goes to Ursula

Ursula: When you gender the philosopher and when you talk only about Kings and Sages – though technically that word is non-gender – I do believe that most readers immediately see an ancient person with a beard. A bit like God. And sine I had taken this book to my heart as a teenage girl, it obviously is a book that speaks to women. Lao Tzu feminized mysteries in a different way from anybody else. These are not “feminine mysteries,” but he makes mystery itself a woman. This is profound, this goes deep. And the most mystical passages in the book are the most feminine. This is something women need, I think, and long for, often without knowing it. That’s undoubtedly one reason why all my life I’ve found the Tao de Ching so refreshing and empowering.

Brenda: Several times when reading your rendition I felt so moved by the feminine beauty of your Tao. For example, you interpret Number 61 “Lying Low” as “The polity of greatness/runs downhill like a river to the sea, joining with everything/woman to everything.” This is such a startling definition of greatness. And your vision of Lao Tzu’s ideas of power defies the traditionally masculine definition which is usually about status, conquest, or hierarchy. But your interpretation is “Power is goodness…Power is trust.”

Ursula: You know, the words really come out that way. That’s one of the less obscure passages. It’s almost shocking. Sometimes, of course, Lao Tzu really is talking about a person in power, a ruler, and I play that down because I didn’t figure a whole lot of rulers would be reading it. On the other hand, people in positions of responsibility, such as mothers, might be. And if you want to read the manual for rulers, there is the magnificent Arthur Waley translation that is never going to be equaled for what it does.

Brenda: Yes, a real classic. Give that one to Hillary Clinton, the rest of us will read yours. Another thing that came through very strongly in this rendition, was the humor, your humor, Lao Tzu’s humor, a philosophy of nature and humor. I laughed out loud when I read your note on Number 53 “Insight”: “people wearing ornaments and fancy clothes,/carrying weapons,/drinking a lot and eating a lot,/having a lot of things, a lot of money: shameless thieves.” And your comment was “So much for capitalism.”

Ursula: You know, in general, Lao Tzu seems to be pretty cagey, and a line can mean five or six different things, and then he just comes straight-out and says something, bang! Like that. It took me a bit by surprise.

 

 Is your interest in the  works you translate purely academic do you practice any form of internal or external martial arts?

i do this;)

 For two months I did a standing practice of one exercise for 4- 7 hours per day.   My realization was, the counting is to occupy the  linear( so it will not interfere) mind while the real  Alchemy starts gaining traction.  What freedom to be in eternity and here on earth!. Now as a more seasoned practitioner

thats an amazing effort. was there a specific event in  your life that prompted you to practice with such dedication?

 

I am fascinated by your limerick about Master Lu. Is it a simple fun jingle or does it have an esoteric meaning my western mind cannot unlock?

Oh I am sure you can unlock anything you want;). It was for fun and giggles and also a hint that the verse was not really about time. Pls take a look at all of those 18 verses for context.

 

Even although I was having arguments with Taoist Texts (the sophist) in the past, I have to admit that it is sad seeing him so defeated and writing this kind of bukowskian poem, fortunately English is not my mother tongue, so  the disgusting effect was weak.

Hi;) this here link below will expand your english horizons a bit, my  EFL friend

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_%28poetry%29

A limerick is a form of poetry,^[1] especially one in five-line anapestic meter with a strict rhyme scheme (AABBA), which is sometimes obscene with humorous intent. The first, second and fifth lines are usually longer than the third and fourth. The oldest attested text in this form is a Latin prayer^[2] by Thomas Aquinas of the 13th century.

The form appeared in England in the early years of the 18th century.^[4] It was popularized by Edward Lear in the 19th century,^[5] although he did not use the term.

The following limerick is of unknown origin:

 

I have to admit that it is sad seeing him so defeated

Yeah me too. Let this appropriately titled song cheer us up

 traditional Chinese culture background.  

There was the Chinese master Lu

Who held the traditional view.

When telling time,

He would always rhyme.

And for some reason add ‘Gate you!’.

1. 卯酉门中作用时，       This is the time of work by the Mao-You gate,

 

First line: Taoist Texts lost the meaning of Mao-You.  Here, the meaning of Mao-You is practice time: morning 5-7am and evening 5-7pm.  This is the first advice from Master Lü Dongbin to internal cultivators. 

Yes. Thats why he says 'the gate'. Thats what ppl say when they tell time. They say morning 5-7am and evening 5-7pm and dont forget the gate.

.  But, I am sorry to say that the commentary as shown above (last post) suggests that Taoist Texts did not understand the meaning of the poem, “Bathing,” at all. 

Well played Xuanming. Well played.

forgot to add that this poem is a part of a 18 verse cycle The Old Fisherman

渔父词一十八首·沐浴 Bathing

Translation by Taoist Texts

 

卯酉门中作用时，赤龙时蘸玉清池。


云薄薄，雨微微，看取妖容露雪肌。

 

This is the time of work by the Mao-You gate,

The scarlet dragon immerses in the Pool of Clean Jade.

Thinly-thin are the clouds, tiny-tiny it rained,

Take a look at the charming appearance of the snow-white skin unveiled.

___________________________________________________________________

 

.....  It would be great if you would write a commentary regarding the meaning of this poem

The meaning is twofold: one is false but practical; the other is true but useless;). Both are readily available on the internet.

Red Dragon is a name for the tongue. The tongue is the tool by which the

saliva is produced and therefore functions as the source of good health.  

tongue around the inside of the mouth.

Rouse and rinse means to gather the saliva in the mouth. The qi is stimu-

lated during the in and out motions of rinsing. Thirty-six is the number of

revolutions. This procedure in effect causes the circulation and stimulation

of qi so that it can penetrate deeply.

This is false but hey, everyone can do it and there is no harm in it.

 If then the true seed is born, and the right method applied in order to melt and mix it, and in that way to create the Elixir of Life, then one goes through the pass. The embryo, which must be developed by the work of warming, nourishing, bathing, and washing, is formed. 

This is true, but since no one can do it its useless, and worse, those who seek live teachers to learn how to do this will be had by the said teachers.

But its all in good fun.  Cheers!

Once again, poem four “Taming the Dragon” has nothing to do with the physical elimination of the menses, from the original Chinese poem, if you read the book and the content of the poem carefully.

 

Alrighty then;)

The second phrase says: The red dragon, who often dips into the clear jade pond.  Do you understand the meaning of the red dragon in this poem? 

Yes. Yes I do.

Can you help me to complete the translation of this poem?    

I will be honored to.

渔父词一十八首·沐浴 Bathing

卯酉门中作用时，赤龙时蘸玉清池。

云薄薄，雨微微，看取妖容露雪肌。

This is the time of work by the Mao-You gate,

The scarlet dragon immerses in the Pool of Clean Jade.

Thinly-thin are the clouds, tiny-tiny it rained,

Take a look at the charming appearance of the snow-white skin unveiled.

Could you please expound on that?

well traditionally any spiritual teaching was based on rejection of human desires. The outer dimension of that is practical: if you eat tasty food, you will overeat, if you overeat you will be sluggish and sleepy, the tasty  food will trigger lust and desire for other indulgences like alcohol, entertainment, companionship. There will be no time nor energy nor inclination  for training.

The internal dimension is that tasty food will disturb your mind so your training will fail. The traditional approach is to just eat something bland 'to paste up the mouth' as they say, to keep the hunger at bay forgetting about the food till tomorrow noon. If you keep up this lifestyle the training will progress smoothly.

also