Taoist Texts

So in short, what are your thoughts and/or experiences on the relationship between Daoism and Western esoteric traditions?

Depends on what exactly in the west. There is congruence between neidan and western alchemy, some Christianity as well; everything else, in particular the modern western occultism - no.

Morning Walker;)

First of all on your kind request.

Out of respect to you personally i will meet it half-way.

First, today, one of those guys offered me to start a discussion with their teacher directly - i thanked and declined.

Second, i will place my answer to your last post not here, but in my little sandbox, where barely anyone will see it, lest it annoys someone here.

Third, i promise not to engage these folks, unless they attack other schools again, as is their wont.

You of course are very welcome to continue our pleasant chat in my PPF or here, as you see fit.

Thanks, man;)

I learned my french by reading his books, the original 19 century editions, in an old fashioned public library, a veritable temple of knowledge . He is a smooth teller of tall tales. Too bad there is no such thing as magic.

As a basic example. Guy learns how to drain Qi from women during Intercourse. 

Ah, this is what you compare to an explosion killing up to 500 000 humans at once. Now i understand. Thank you.

 Damaged psyches, vehicles,

lives, etc., for all Involved.

But why would not the all involved wear tinfoil hats to prevent this calamity? At least during the intercourse. Tinfoil hats saves lives!

A separate, and Important point that I forgot to mention earlier, Is that ALL of the ancient cultivation texts,

are, for want of a better term, "Booby-trapped". They have various misdirections, and outright lies contained In

them, to discourage "the profane".  

A good tinfoil hat will help with that too.

Opendao has used this before, the point being that if you teach the wrong student

well, thanks. the "wrong student"...lets say there is such a thing

the practices, then the abilities gained could be used destructively.

but this is? like how for example?

This very Interesting thread clearly shows the inherent problems In propagating advanced teachings.

 

I call It "The 5 year old/Nuke" dilemma. Do you really want to give nuclear capabilities to a 5 year old?

It's going to be a bit of a disaster for all Involved. 

Thats a metaphor i dont understand. The 5 year old is apparently the adult student. Why is an adult compared to a 5 year old? And what exactly is the nuke here?

I have not.

I know and I salute you for your honesty. However, always sad to see a gentleman tainting himself with a bunch of shameless  profiteers. 

I merely offer you a glimpse at secondary and primary textual references showing that your understanding of the sentence in question as well as your translation of it is quite possibly mistaken.

Its all right Walker. Two things:

first, i can find those references with a couple of clicks - its 21st century, no need for you to waste your valuable time for that;

 second, - and i am sorry to be blunt, but man, because you (and your  neidaneer friends) have not made the neidan - you do not know  what  you are talking about.

I on the other hand do know. Because i have made the neidan.

Good. I have no idea if you ever won't think that you're right, no matter what information you're presented with, but I can shed more light on this question if it would please you for me to do so.

Hi Walker! Yes, by all means;)

Doing so, however, will require me to make a trip to the library, maybe more than one, if I decide to look at the Daozang or if the book I need is checked out.

 

Since this will require a fair bit of my time and energy, I propose we make a deal. This brings me to my second question:

 

If I take the time to provide information about the background of the sentence in question, will you promise to discontinue any and all interaction with Opendao and Opendao's associates which Opendao and his associates construe as "trolling?"

Yours is very generous offer. And not at all bizarre, either!

 If you will accept my selfish request, then I am happy to crack a few books to continue this conversation. 

Well, you see Walker, selfishness is not the issue. Your having the goods is. The info of your proffer pertains to the neidan, which is a mystical object of rejuvenation and immortality. Unless you personally have created that object, your info is not  very valuable, and since we are negotiating I must ascertain if you offer me a fair deal.

Have you created the neidan, Walker?

 

. No one will ever know what it really means!”  

Thats western 'daoism' in one sentence for ya.

No, you are wrong here. I have read some traditional Daoist texts and Baopuzi is one of them. 

ah, books again

You can read there   how Huangdi, ....got the Teaching and who had transmitted this Teaching to him

Who?   A talking mutant goat, thats who.

 the Yellow Emperor  visited the mythical East sea and met a talking beast called the Bai Ze who taught him the knowledge of all supernatural creatures.^[46][47]

 I believe (and this is traditional notion) that all authentic methods come from Immortals  

all the immortals got together, approached him in a park, looked him in the eye and personally told him so

Hi Walker

yes thats what i meant, then following your question decided to double check and found this commentary

大道之要，不外无为而为四字。

I wonder who the author of it is. Still think that i am right though.

well, if that BS gets that work done, may be it is not such BS after all;)

In that sense perhaps it is also important to mention the Taoist I Ching by Liu Yiming and translated by Thomas Cleary,  

Cleary's translations are acceptable for simpler chinese texts, but not this one. He has mangled the original to the degree of a  total misinterpretation of  the meaning.

 but what about the Yijing's relationship to neidan?

a couple of trigrams are borrowed in neidan to superficially  illustrate one or two of its  main ideas. beyond that, there is no relationship, except in the minds of those who do not understand neidan.

Kongming, your reasoning is logical and clever, but it is your own. It is not what the chinese canonical sources  say.

The Dao itself is beyond distinctions of good and evil, moral and immoral, etc. since it is, at the Absolute level, transcendent and nondual.  

Says who?

 

Perhaps someone else can quote Lao Zi?

Someone can, but he will be quoting through his hat, since LZ is a political scripture which has absolutely no contemporary connection, content or reference  to neidan (the latter coming into existence a a goodly 1000-1500 years later). Or, to any kind of bodily practice either, for that matter.

LZ got tied to neidan simply by the virtue of being the almost only non-Confucian text surviving in circulation after the tumultuous historical transition from the archaic to classical china.   Its almost complete illegibility past the superficial Quietism did not hurt either.

There is no catch-all answer. "When can we generalize and when can we not?"

 

Well... we always can, but often we are incorrect in doing so.

 

Are you looking for something in particular?

Oh it was mostly a political question from a specific  context of  different thread. Why and when we are not allowed to generalize?

On some topics, generalization is useful, maybe even 99% descriptive. On other topics, generalization is useless, often even harmful.

 

Cows have legs. That's a generalization based on my experience. I'd imagine that not 100% of cows are born with legs. But it's true most of the time. It's descriptive of most cows, more than 99%.

 

Dogs bite people. That's a generalization I've heard, based on some people's experience. And it's not true most of the time. Most dogs never bite people. One would be better saying "Dogs have the capacity to bite people." And the thing is, people believing that all dogs are biters will only lead people to treat dogs poorly, which in turn will make dogs more likely to bite people.

My answer would be that generalization is accurately predictive when A. the generalized category is not expected to change from a specimen to specimen and B. when the cost of not generalizing is forbiddingly high.

Your cows example would be A.

In your dogs example substituting dogs with snakes results in B.

The answer is rather simple.

To the moral people Tao is moral.

To the amoral people Tao is amoral.

 

 

As for Taoist Texts, I don't know, is he looking for something?

Except myself. Something has found me already.

 Taoist Text's "explanation" of “四字凝神入气穴” is so far from the mark as to be, to the cultivator hoping to learn what is meant by that line, utterly useless.

Walker;) please note that i provided no explanation at all beyond literal translation of that line. Providing explanation would be teaching publicly and for free, which i do not do.

I'd give Taoist Texts the answer--it's no big secret--

Please do. I promise not criticize it, but we can have a courteous discussion if you wish.

but, well, full cup problem. Best to stay clear of a man running wild with a brimming cup. Stand too close and it's not just him who ends up scalded.

Have no fear Walker, mine is a sippy-cup , spill-proof design, for my consumption only.

 

 

Heh, your words are so empty and knowledge so thin that any true seeker of Dao will see though it.

There must be quite a few of you guys out there. 

I'll say anyway,

Please do! See, we are having a conversation which is both courteous and exciting already;)

Nei Dan Shu is methods to cultivate Dao, not be handed Dao for little efforts. expectations to reach achievement of Xian in short time is not realistic for most - someone could have a very special fate - but rare. There are many obstacles to first overcome and work to do (special methods to correct body's balance, removing the modern stress, tensions, illnesses, unsettled thoughts, correcting polluted ideas and thoughts -cleaning the Heart and so on) to prepare the body for further work on the way (the process) to cultivate Da Dao.

This is strange. You are saying that the method of alchemy can be used for the huge task of achieving immortality, but can not be used to overcome small tasks that you list above. Does that make sense?

Each person has their own unique struggles to overcome, each persons fate being different - and it takes time to correct and find the balance, and stabilise the good result, the preparation work is working on this and it is all part of the way to being able to perform further methods in the Alchemy.

What you say does make sense only if the teacher does not know alchemy himself but rather strings the student on with preparatory qigong, hoping that the dunce will pay long enough, then quit and be replaced by a new one. Its called the 'optimal rate of customer churn'.

You guys are waxing phylosophical, while i am shooting for a practical answer. How many apples in a barrel you should bite before concluding that the whole barrel' gone bad? Shall i drink the sea to the last drop to know that it is salty throu and throu?

oops wrong thread;)

I'm also a student and have been practising Daogong and YXP for almost 1 year, and WLP Juiyangshengong for much less, that is 2 classes per week for over 6 months, and 1 class per week for just under 6 months, 

So, 1 year, no neidan, just qigong. Good, no probs.

 

There is defiantly no sickness developed from the methods, only positive changes in the daily life (opportunity, increased fortune, luck, increased energy in the daily tasks - work - relationships and so on) and in the body (long term health issues correcting, sensitivity of channels and direct sense of activation of channels from methods and it doing positive work in correcting the balance, working with the post-heaven Qi with sense behind it

Excellent. But still qigong, not neidan. No neidan created in 1 year. Well, may be next year.

Taoist Texts, you have only empty words with no basis, there is nothing more to say to you.

Thanks for sharing;)