Taoist Texts

The tao that can be named is not the immortal tao.

 

It's all there

Thanks Woodcarver. I must be dense but what does that even mean? Whats a tao? Whats the connection beetwing naming and immortality? Why THE tao can not be named? Who says so? And why? What value did this statement add? In short, i dont understand this, seriously.

Perhaps this is germane to the concept of the first line:

 

The dialogue is between two unnamed speakers.

Can it be that a white horse is not a horse?

Advocate: It can.

Objector: How?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_a_white_horse_is_not_a_horse

Aha. So, you've interpreted it slightly differently. That's what I like to see..

 

May I ask, why "For those whom you have wronged" ?

oh its just one way to look at the story. A stranger comes up to you with a sharp object in hand, asks to look at it and recall anything untoward. The implication could be that he came for you. methinks the poem intentionally leaves that open,no?

 

 

《剑客》

十年磨一劍

霜刃未曾試

今日把示君

誰有不平事

For ten years I have been honing this sword,

Quoth the strange wandering guest.

Look at the frosty edge milord,

It had never been put to test.

Now think hard and deep my liege,

While feeling the blade so cold,

Whether the justice is now served,

For those whom you have wronged.

For a chapter that recieves so much attention, I haven't read a single translation that doesn't get the point across.

really;) and that point would be....?

不上賢使民不爭 Without glorifying the gifted, the people will not contend;

不貴難得之貨使民不為盜 Without treasuring rare things, the people will not steal;

不見可欲使民不亂 Without desire, the people will not rebel.

是以聖人之治也 Therefore the wise man rules by

虛亓心 Emptying their hearts,

實亓腹 Filling their bellies,

弱亓志 Weakening their ambitions,

強亓骨 And strengthening their bones,

恆使民无知无欲也 Until the people have no knowledge and no desires,

使夫知不敢弗為而已 And those with knowledge dare not act;

則无不治矣 In this way, all will be in order

 

 

Again, posting my own translation after scanning the thread. It seems that the things I wanted to touch on have been touched on, actually, but it was all 2 or 3 years ago, and I'm trying to learn by doing, so...

 

 

If the people have no desires, they will not need to rebel. But how does the ruler make sure they don't desire? By making sure there's nothing to desire -- and without anything to desire, without any knowledge that there might be more to life, what kind of "hope" can one have?

Technically, yours is a pretty good translation, but...the questions you pose are even better. All translators draw a picture of a totalitarian dark place where rulers take away the playthings from the dumb masses, overlooking the fact that there are two third-person actors in this passage - the people and their rulers. If the rulers take away the shiny toys from the people that would be action and Lao knows better than that. So 'they' 其 refers not to the people but to the rulers themselves.

是以聖人之治，虛其心，實其腹，弱其志，強其骨。常使民無知無欲。使夫知者不敢為也。為無為，則無不治。

"So when the sages govern - they empty their own hearts, fill their own bellies, weaken their own ambitions, sthengthen their own bones. If they conduct themselves like this always, then the people would not know what to desire...Do this non-action and there will be nothing to govern"

Utopian communistic society...yes. I'd love to find one...

The Amish;)

I will comment on the first sentence based on James Legge's translation:

 

"The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name."

For whatever the reason, what you said here brought to my mind an alternative to human sacrifice.

Good hunch sir.

There was hardly a tomb or a building consecrated without the sacrifice of a dog. At one site, Xiaotong, the bones of a total of 825 human victims, 15 horses, 10 oxen, 18 sheep and 35 dogs were unearthed. Dogs were usually buried wrapped in reed mats and sometimes in lacquer coffins. Small bells with clappers, called ling (鈴) have sometimes been found attached to the necks of dogs or horses. The fact that alone among domestic animals dogs and horses were buried demonstrates the importance of these two animals to ancient Chinese society. It's reflected in an idiom passed down to modern times: "to serve like a dog or a horse." (犬馬之勞).

Shang oracle bones mention questions concerning the whereabouts of lost dogs. They also refer to the ning (寧) rite during which a dog was dismembered to placate the four winds or honour the four directions. This sacrifice was carried over into Zhou times. The Er ya records a custom to dismember a dog to "bring the four winds to a halt." (止風). Other ceremonies involving dogs are mentioned in the Zhou li. In the nan (難) sacrifice to drive away pestilience, a dog was dismembered and his remains buried in front of the main gates of the capital. The ba (軷) sacrifice to ward off evil required the Son of Heaven, riding in a jade chariot, to crush a dog under the wheels of his carriage. The characterba gives a clue as to how the ceremony took place. It is written with the radical for chariot (車) and a phonetic element which originally meant an animal whose legs had been bound (发). It was the duty of a specially appointed official to supply a dog of one colour and without blemishes for the sacrifice. The blood of dogs was used for the swearing of covenants between nobles.

Towards the late fifth century BC, surrogates began to be used for sacrifice in lieu of real dogs. The Dao De Jing mentions the use of straw dogs as a metaphor:

However, the practice of burying actual dogs by no means died out. One Zhongshan royal mausoleum, for example, included two hunting dogs with gold and silver neck rings.

Later, clay figurines of dogs were buried in tombs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogs_in_ancient_China

the differences are just part of the whole.

wow, its like deep, man.

 

音声相和

 

I believe the proper translation would be as follows:

音声相和

Tone and sound are mutually harmonized.

 

 

Thats quite likely.

One thing bugs me about this chapter: 音声相和

 

Everything else is, to me, obvious yang & yin: being & not being, long & short, high & low, front & back. So wouldn't sound and silence be more suitable?

 

Then again, sound is vibration, which is itself a combination of 'being' and 'not being'. I guess. Still, I'd prefer sound and silence.

If you look in a larger dictionary you will find that 音聲 combo denotes the initial 音 and the final 聲sounds of a chinese syllable.

Yes thats my oversight, of course the original says 有無相生 being and non being birth each other. Good catch.

The only issue I have is your 'being births non-being'. You don't really treat it as complimentary but if feels like a linear relationship.

Heck let me have a go at it too

《老子河上公章句·養身》: Nourishing the body

天下皆知美之為美，斯惡已；皆知善之為善，斯不善已。

If everybody under Heaven deem something beautiful then it becomes ugly (to a discerning observer, because beautiful is something different from vulgar tastes); if everybody recognizes something as good then it must be not that good. (so ugly comes from beautiful, not good comes from previously good)

故有無相生，難易相成，長短相較，高下相傾，音聲相和，前後相隨。

(Similar to the above) being births non-being, hard and easy are two ends of the same, short and long are relative, high and low are parts of whole, the sounds are parts of harmony, before and after are consecutive

(If these extremes give rise to each other in nature, then it is best to govern by non-action which will produce action)

是以聖人居無為之事，行不言之教，萬物作而弗治也， 為而不恃，功成而弗居。夫唯弗居，是以不去。

So the sage manages by non-action and teaches not by words but by conduct, (in this way) the things are done without governance, there is action but not the maintenance of it, the work is accomplished without dwelling on it. Because the work (of governing) is not dwelled on – it is never out of control.

 

t put oneself behind the scene; then, one will be recognized and praised by the people.

 

 

Remember? A sage always puts himself behind but ended up in the front.

There is a long authoritative tradition that supports what Chi Dragon says, so we are conditioned to believe it. But how does it work in practice, if at all? If you put yourself behind how you gonna end up in front being recognised? Something doesnt add.

I will just highlight the parallels and see where it is going

天下皆知美之為美亞已 All know beauty for beauty because ugliness is,

皆知善斯不善矣 Know good by what is not good.

有無之相生也 Existence and absence give birth to each other,

難易之相成也 Difficult and easy complete each other,

長短之相刑也 Long and short determine each other,

高下之相盈也 High and low surpass each other,

音聲之相和也 Voice and sound harmonize each other,

先後之相隨恆也 Front and back follow each other;

是以聖人居無為之事 The wise man goes about doing nothing,

行不言之教 Teaches without talking;

萬物昔而弗始 Life is, with no beginning,

為而弗侍也 Does, without serving,

成功而弗居也 Succeeds, and does not linger;

夫唯弗居是以弗去 A man who does not linger does not leave

里仁:

子曰：「富與貴是人之所欲也，不以其道得之，不處也；貧與賤是人之所惡也，不以其道得之，不去也。君子去仁，惡乎成名？君子無終食之間違仁，造次必於是，顛沛必於是。」

Li Ren:

The Master said, "Riches and honors are what men desire. If it cannot be obtained in the proper way, they should not be held. Poverty and meanness are what men dislike. If it cannot be avoided in the proper way, they should not be avoided. If a superior man abandon virtue, how can he fulfill the requirements of that name? The superior man does not, even for the space of a single meal, act contrary to virtue. In moments of haste, he cleaves to it. In seasons of danger, he cleaves to it."

http://ctext.org/analects/li-ren?searchu=%E4%B8%8D%E5%8E%BB&searchmode=showall#n1173

So...is that an agreement?

Yes it is. also an example as how most of what is cryptic in TTC is made clear by Confucius.

天下皆知美之為美亞已 All know beauty for beauty because ugliness is,

皆知善斯不善矣 Know good by what is not good.

有無之相生也 Existence and absence give birth to each other,

難易之相成也 Difficult and easy complete each other,

長短之相刑也 Long and short determine each other,

高下之相盈也 High and low surpass each other,

音聲之相和也 Voice and sound harmonize each other,

先後之相隨恆也 Front and back follow each other;

是以聖人居無為之事 The wise man goes about doing nothing,

行不言之教 Teaches without talking;

子曰：「予欲無言。」子貢曰：「子如不言，則小子何述焉？」子曰：「天何言哉？四時行焉，百物生焉，天何言哉？」

Yang Huo:

The Master said, "I would prefer not speaking." Zi Gong said, "If you, Master, do not speak, what shall we, your disciples, have to record?" The Master said, "Does Heaven speak? The four seasons pursue their courses, and all things are continually being produced, but does Heaven say anything?" (Legg)

I see, I see. Even so, directly translated it can simply be: "Without struggle, no fault/blame", right?

sure. no harm - no foul.

Character: 治

English Senses For (英文): zhi4

control / to govern / to manage / to rule / to regulate / to harness (a river) / the seat of the local government / to treat (a disease) / to cure / to study / to research / to punish / peaceful and orderly / a Chinese family name

From water 氵水 and phonetic 台. Originally to prevent flooding by water. Now to regulate.

I'm glad I wasn't supposed to understand that.

yet understand you will kind sir.

夫

1. ​ (literary) initial particle which introduces a topic  [quotations ▼]

Not used as an independent character in modern Chinese. Only found in compounds.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%A4%AB#Particle

Wuh.. huh....

 

For that to be the original, and assuming that meaning really was implied, certainly changes the original intent of the chapter.

i understand that we are well of throdden path here, so for a perspective consider that this could be about a cosmic feng-shui.under great open sky..'regulate the unruly waters and the rest of the cosm will follow suit". Also 治 is not the only ref to controlling waters...不爭 or 有靜 also is. Water is not struggling or is calm only when contained, otherwise it is quite an unruly element , you know.

 

fengshui.about.com/od/gardenfengshui/qt/feng-shui-garden-water.htm

Feng Shui of the Water Element in Your Garden

Generally, it is good feng shui to have the water flow towards the house...

Wuh.. huh....

t, the following, simple meanings are apparent to me:

 

 

...

夫唯不爭，故無尤 Man doesn't struggle/strive, so/therefore no fault/blame

夫 at the beg. of a sent. is an intro particle.

Timing and placement are so damn important most times, aren't they?

a stitch in time saves nine;)

Mr Taoist Texts -- Very interesting...the analogy is certainly sound. So are you suggesting that a 治水 'regulatory' translation would be preferable to other versions of the text?

Hi DB, just TT will do lets not stand on the ceremony here;) Yes i think thats the original version, now a scattered puzzle between the 4 received versions.

 

What is good in a man's sight is evil for a god,

What is evil to a man's mind is good for his god.

Who can comprehend the counsel of the gods in heaven?

The plan of a god is deep waters,

who can fathom of it?

Where has befuddled mankind ever learned what is a god's conduct?

Before Civilization

Between 9000 B.C. and the beginning of the Christian era, western civilization came into being in Egypt and in what historians call Ancient Western Asia (modern-day Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Turkey, southwestern Russia, Iraq and Iran). The earliest permanent settlements occurred between 9000-6000 B.C. and were accompanied by the domestication of plants and animals. Between 4000-3000 B.C., the first cities appeared in response to the pressures of population growth, the organizational requirements of irrigation

 

http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture2b.html

The governance of a nation begins from building irrigation and waterways and remains so (recall The United States Army Corps of Engineers (USACE, also sometimes shortened to CoE) is a U.S. federal agency under the Department of Defense and a major Army command made up of some 36,500 civilian and military personnel,^[1] making it one of the world's largest public engineering, design, and construction management agencies. Although generally associated with dams, canals and flood protection in the United States...)

So the original to me goes something like this:

上善治水。水善利萬物而不爭， 居眾人之所亞， 故幾於道矣。

居善地，心善淵，予善天，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。

The highest governance is that of managing the waterworks. When the water is well managed it is benefitting everything and being subdued – does not contend, then the people should be made to reside (along the borders of it) 所亞, and the nation will be close to Dao. Once the residence is on that land (along the managed water), then the hearts will be good at being deep, the words good with sincerity, the punishments 正 will be good for governance, the affairs will good with possibility (of being done), the actions will be good according to seasons. Only because now (after the waters have been strictly subdued) there is no contention – there will be no fault.

Huh... well don't I feel silly. The "versions" of the MWD I found on the Chinese web are not even close to this... there's a lot more discrepancy than I realised. I've now found the proper excavated versions on ctext. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

Well, if you're up for some more discussion:

 

 

治水 -- this is confusing. 若水 and 如水 seem close enough not to worry about, but 治....control, regulate..? Is there a meaning of 治 even close to "similar/like" ?

yes, to me control/regulate is the key here.

One account of the Great Flood is said to have occurred during the reign of Emperor Yao. After the flooding began, ....to build dams, dikes and embankments would eventually gain control of the flood waters. Continuous failing led Shun to banish Gun, his son Yu then taking over the efforts. Yu implemented drainage systems and was thus able to accomplish what his father never could - See more at:

 

http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/gun-yu-and-chinese-flood-myth-00370#sthash.986ef8XA.dpuf

So the story arc of this passage starts with a reference to the governing class 上善, being in charge of public works 治水 historically. Then the arc proceeds into water governance serving as a metaphor for governance in general, and ends in a conclusion on a secret of good governance.

8。

《道德經》: 上善若水。水善利萬物而不爭，處衆人之所惡，故幾於道。居善地，心善淵，與善仁，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。

《老子河上公章句·易性》: 上善若水。水善利萬物而不爭，處眾人之所惡，故幾於道。居善地，心善淵，與善仁，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。

《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 上善治水。水善利萬物而有靜，居眾之所惡，故幾於道矣。居善地，心善瀟，予善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不靜，故無尤。

《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 上善如水。水善利萬物而有爭，居眾人之所亞，故幾於道矣。居善地，心善淵，予善天，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。

Well...I've been trying, slowly, to evolve my own translation of the DDJ, and decided the other day to base it on the Mawangdui text (because why not?), so have had to change a couple of things from the little amount I already had done.

 

For my own reasons, I've started not at the beginning, but with chapter 8.

 

There are some problems (of course). I shall embolden the differences from the received text, and highlight problematic bits in red, with discussion below. Feedback is welcome (feel free to comment on any of it).

Hey DB, this is a good translation as they go but i do always wonder whats the connection between lines? why are they stringed together in one chapter? why most of them seem trivial like (事善能The goodness of duties is found in ability) or disjointed? i wish translators paid more attention to these issues. But again, a good job.