Taoist Texts

why is so bad to spend time and money in learning neidan

This is interesting. So those immortal true neidan masters need money? How much in total? What an immortal would spend this money on?

Twas a good answer, but I still think that 使 + 民 = make/cause the people

I totally agree thats what it says.

Twas a good answer, but I still think that 使 + 民 = make/cause the people

 

Sorry again for the obnoxious response before. Thinking I know it all...

hey look Dusty is back. welcome back Dusty!

the verbiage I'm referring to was not so ambiguous - and basically said "if you do burn and crack the pot, you will not be able to cook rice"

I know;) that verbiage is a classic example as how they twist the original words.

The original saying is explained here

. WLP likened it to burning an empty vessel, dammit it stunk the last time I accidentally left a pot on the stove. Why, because I was careless and doing other things.

actually its doubtful that the original chinese quote meant 'if you heat an empty pot - it will burn out and crack', it was more to the tune that 'if you heat a pot with no rice in it - there will be no cooked rice'.

Maybe if you pay enough money, you will get there

they paid all the money they had and got nowhere. thats ironic. probably.

The preface is written by the translator / interviewer (Charles Luk / Lu K'uan Yü), not by the master (Zhao Bichen) who explains the practice of his school (‘Qianfeng Xian Tian Pai’ (千峰仙天派)) in the book.

Zhao Bichen was member of the Wu Liu Pai school (and others) before creating his own.

The position of the Wu Liu Pai school is, as far as I'm informed, that that the method of Zhao Bichen's school "does not contain the full transmission" or complete method used in the Wu Liu Pai school.

thats all must be true but the insubstantiated claim was that the book is deficient regardless of any school.

"Taoist Yoga - Alchemy and Immortality" it starts you somewhere in the middle of the practice so no.

so this must be a personal unsubstantiated opinion

because the author says in the preface

今将所得于师及自己所曾经验者，尽情宣布。

Now， what I received from teachers and experienced myself, I publish sincerely and widely.

http://www.xiulian.com/XMZHF/FJMZH/000qfxy.htm

ZZ - trans. by Legge (ctext)

 

Yes I totally agree that ZZ provides the backdrop for LZ, but not for a real LZ but rather for already mythologised LZ.

The real LZ is explicated in Wen-zi

http://thetaobums.com/topic/37307-5-daode-the-virtue-of-the-way/?p=602039

with the last line of this chapter being a military-political paradigm

Accomplish enough military victories to become famously invincible to scare off the aggressor, after that refrain from aggressive wars so as not to fall victim to hubris and overstretching the army and the economy. In this way you will comply with the will of Heaven.

What is the will of Heaven or dao of Heaven? Well remember the bunch of commonsense folksy proverbs in part 1? they are there to demonstrate how the things work in this world, which is the dao of Heaven. The logic is 'all things are good in moderation so is aggressing and plundering'. Thats the dao. Of heaven.

What about the long protruding tongue.? there must be long protruding tongue there somewhere

Wooden Guardian Figure

Southern China

Eastern Zhou Period (c.4th Century BC)

Height: c.43.7 cm

Figures like this were placed in tombs as guardians in the Chu state in Hanan and the Hubei province. The people who set these up venerated and feared a number of spirits. They used shamans to intercede and communicate with them. Wearing antlers seems to have been significant in shamanistic rituals. Carved figures with antlers probably represented the shamans or their powers.

The antlers on this figure are made from dry lacquer and the figure has a long protruding tongue.

Mingbai le...!!!

However, "A Taoist has to follow certain principles to assist people" was not illogical nor a fallacy......

 

It is unless you support it with logical reasoning.

Good morning(my morning anyway)......

 

This Taoist is not necessarily a secluded Taoist but can be an ordinary person who practice the principles of Tao. A Taoist, as a good practice, would like to be virtuous by making contributions to the society by helping others. It may be analogous to a boy scout in doing three deeds a day.

Morning

a boy scout is a perfect analogy. Thank you. But you still make unsupported claims without answering the question 'why'.

Now you know the question 'why' normally predicates one of 2 answers.

1. Argument from authority (Latin: argumentum ab auctoritate), also authoritative argument and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy when misused.^[1]

^{E.g 'Lao-zi came to me in person and told me so"}

^or

^2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_reasoning

'A taoist has to do good deeds because the moon is made from green cheese'

Mingbai le ma?

19 道德:

老子曰：夫亟戰而數勝者，即國亡，亟戰即民罷，數勝即主驕，以驕主使罷民，而國不亡者即寡矣。主驕即恣，恣即極物，民罷即怨，怨即極慮，上下俱極而不亡者，未之有也。故「功遂身退，天之道也。」

Lao-zi said:

if the war is waged often and the victories are numerous then the kingdom will perish; for the frequent wars inure your people, repeated victories lead to your overconfidence, an overconfident king evermore inures his people, and for such a kingdom not to perish is a rarity.

Overconfidence leads to hubris, hubris strain the things to the utmost, the inured people become restless, people being restless leads to the utmost trouble, and for the above and the below to be strained to their utmost and not to perish, there is no such thing.

That’s what it means: the victory accomplished to restrain from more wars, that’s the will of the Heaven.

The work(9 to 5 and go home) that you are talking about is not the same as a mission. It is a mission that one has to be accomplished to benefit all the people. I don't we are talking about the same thought.

 

A Taoist has to follow certain principles to assist people. The reason they study TCM is to help people to get well from illnesses and be healthy. hmm.....It seems to me that you have no idea what Taoism is all about.

That ione is for sure I have no clue;) But can i with all due respect ask one more time if thats not too much trouble...

A Taoist has to follow certain principles to assist people.

Why?

Chi Dragon i do hear you but the questions remain

功成身退天之道
It is a matter of principle! One should withdrawn oneself from the scene when the mission was accomplished.

is it not what an ordinary person is doing? i work 9 to 5 and go home. whoo-hoo i am a taoist!

This is a way of practice, as a Taoist, to due away with the desire for rich and famous. Another way to look at it is to avoid competing with others. A Taoist do not wish someone to have a pang of envy at the thought of one's success.

BTW A Taoist wants to assist the others to accomplish things.

why ? why would a taoist care one wit about the others and their feelings?

《道德經》: 持而盈之，不如其已；揣而銳之，不可長保。金玉滿堂，莫之能守；富貴而驕，自遺其咎。功遂身退天之道。

《老子河上公章句·運夷》: 持而盈之，不如其已。揣而梲之，不可長保。金玉滿堂，莫之能守。富貴而驕，自遺其咎。功成、名遂、身退，天之道。

《郭店·老子甲》: 持而浧之，不不若已。揣而銳之，不可長保也。金玉浧室，莫能守也。貴福驕，自遺咎也。功遂身退，天之道也。

《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 植而盈之，不□□□□□□之□之，□可長葆之。金玉盈室，莫之守也；貴富而驕，自遺咎也。功遂身芮天□□□。

《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 植而盈之，不若其已；鍛而允之，不可長葆也。金玉盈室，莫之能守也；貴富而驕，自遺咎也。功遂身退，天之道也。

This is a two part essay

1. 持而盈之，不如其已；揣而銳之，不可長保。金玉滿堂，莫之能守；富貴而驕，自遺其咎。

2. 功遂身退天之道。

(1) is a collection of common sense proverbs on the benefits of moderation

(2) is not quite clear 功遂身退天之道。 Or 功成、名遂、身退，天之道。

It is normally translated as

“When the work is done, and one's name is becoming distinguished, to withdraw into obscurity is the way of Heaven.”

Why would a nonchalant Taoist need to do any work, let alone have his name distinguished? What it is to withdraw? Why all of the above is the way of Heaven?

thats all good. i just feel that people curiously miss the point of this story and i was always interested where the blind spot is cognitively speaking.

By not interfering with the natural flow of things as much as possible. (If the people are happy then leave them alone.)

hmm...cutting the entire carcass into small bits is not interfering? i donno about that.

 

Interesting that in the cooks own words, he describes it as the method of Dao but so far nobody has tied back the cook's Way to the great Way; it seems that the explanations are just study hard, gain knowledge from doing it and one day you will master it.

 

I recall the book, The Art of Archery in which a german man d

you gonna enjoy this;)

http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/2726

I've had a very hard time understanding whether it's wise or not to abandon all relative pursuits and rest indolently with my head at the fountain of the infinite.

it is wise if you have the fountain. if you dont - that would be double injury. most people have no fountain. so being wise is first of all being realistic as to how unique you are.

孟子告齊宣王曰：「君之視臣如手足，則臣視君如腹心；君之視臣如犬馬，則臣視君如國人；君之視臣如土芥，則臣視君如寇讎。」

Mencius said to the king Xuan of Qi, 'When the prince regards his ministers as his hands and feet, his ministers regard their prince as their belly and heart; when he regards them as his dogs and horses, they regard him as another man; when he regards them as the ground or as grass, they regard him as a robber and an enemy.

《下德》

1 下德:

老子曰：治身，太上養神，其次養形，神清意平，百節皆寧，養生之本也，肥肌膚，充腹腸，供嗜欲，養生之末也。治國，太上養化，其次正法，民交讓爭處卑，財利爭受少，事力爭就勞，日化上而遷善，不知其所以然，治之本也，利賞而勸善，畏刑而不敢為非，法令正於上，百姓服於下，治之末也，上世養本，而下世事末。

Lao-zi said: to govern his body, the emperor nourishes his spirit first, then nourishes his body, if the spirit is pure and the intent calm – then the 100 joints will all be at peace, such is the root of nourishing life. But to fatten the flesh, to fill the belly and guts, to fulfill the desires – that is shallow nourishment of life.

To govern his state, the emperor nourishes converting the people first, then nourishes the righteous laws, if the people yield to each other and compete for the lowest place, then there will little strife for money and profit, the subjects will compete in service, and will convert to the better day by day, without even knowing that it is so, such is the root of the governing. But to use profit and motivate to be good with it, to scare with punishment so nobody dares to do evil, to produce the decrees from above to make obedient the 100 families below, that is shallow governing.

The ancients nourished the root, the descendants are busy with the shallow.

Wow.

 

Sorry for the bluntness, but... if you want an honest, logical, fruitful discussion, I think you need to stop selectively ignoring things you don't like.

no problemo

What you're saying:

 

1. Doesn't make sense. A ruler who hides himself from the masses also leads by example? How? How does this work????

A. The chain of command is a pyramid king on top - masses below no day-light in between.

B. De - De is a magical force that binds the nation together

2. Is not supported by the text.

 

 

常使民無知無欲

Constantly makes the people without knowledge and without desire

I believe i addressed that in the previous post

I'd forgotten about this!

 

TT... in the other thread you said I had my interpretation backwards: looks like it's the same disagreement 4 months later!

 

We could go back and forth all day, and in the end there's no way to prove who 其 is referring to -- the ruler or the ruled. So I don't have much hope that we'll come to an agreement...

 

I'll just point out a couple of thoughts I've had since last time we discussed this:

He is clearly talking about, again, ruling the masses. By suggesting that one should 使 cause the people to stop fighting over rare things and stealing from each other, he is suggesting interfering. By suggesting that a ruler does anything at all -- by even acknowledging that there is a ruler -- he is acknowledging that some interference will occur.

 

Why, in the middle, would he suddenly start talking about feeding himself and weakening his own ambition? And then, right after that, talk yet again about 使民無知無欲 causing the people to have no knowledge and no desire

 

Also, to wei wuwei can be interpreted as to force non-forcing, or enact non-action

Your's is a correct approach - analysing this statement as a three part essay, yet you start with a wrong assumption reading an actor into the first part. There is no 'one should' there.

1. 不尚賢，使民不爭；不貴難得之貨，使民不為盜；不見可欲，使心不亂。

2. 是以聖人之治，虛其心，實其腹，弱其志，強其骨。

3. 常使民無知無欲。使夫¹知者不敢為也。為無為，則無不治。

(1) is a statement of a fact of human nature: no cunning - no strife; no valuables - no thieving; no desirbles - no trouble.

(2) is how to make it so

(3) is the result 常使 'if constantly so' Remember the constant Dao in chpt 1? 為無為 act without action, lead by example. Or as Kongzi- said to the king above

季康子問政於孔子曰：「如殺無道，以就有道，何如？」孔子對曰：「子為政，焉用殺？子欲善，而民善矣.

Ji Kang asked Confucius about government, saying, "What do you say to killing the unprincipled for the good of the principled?" Confucius replied, "Sir, in carrying on your government, why should you use killing at all? Let your evinced desires be for what is good, and the people will be good.

... your translation suggests the Way; it starts with the ruler.

Excellent Dawei, excellent indeed. Yes it does.

or as Kong-zi, the ever true taoist says:

季康子問政於孔子曰：「如殺無道，以就有道，何如？」孔子對曰：「子為政，焉用殺？子欲善，而民善矣。君子之德風，小人之德草。草上之風，必偃。

You want to be good, and the people will be good. King's De is wind and the peoples De is grass. Wind on the grass - the grass will bend with it.