Taoist Texts
-
Content count
3,899 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
19
Posts posted by Taoist Texts
-
-
Perhaps it was a teacher's textbook (for people like this king, because he wasn't good with studies!)
he took it along to study for all eternity.
-
I think, though I'm not sure, that one can come to an understanding of each separate existing version of the Laozi by studying them closely, as we have been doing.
What I mean is that I don't think there's only one understanding of the TTC, because there's more than one TTC.
i donno. Its like saying that there is more than one physics because there are several editions of the same Physics 101.
-
But what's all this water stuff about? Could someone explain, please?
水之性，不雜則清，莫動則平，鬱閉而不流，亦不能清，天德之象也。
the idea is that every person is endowed with 天德 but becouse it is intangible ZZ uses water as analogy to explain how to develop this 天德.
-
oh its a fantastic text. without it, to understand TTC you would need to pore over quotations from legists, ZZ, confucians in order to build a frame of reference but Wenzi is like teacher's textbook with all answers to problems provided in the back.
In 1973, Chinese archeologists excavated a Han Dynasty tomb near Dingzhou 定州 (or Dingxian 定縣) in Hebei. Its occupant is identified as King Huai 懷王 of Zhongshan (state), who died in 55 BCE. Tomb furnishings included a precious Jade burial suit, jade ornaments, writing tools, and remnants of eight Chinese classic texts, including the Wenzi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzi
In fact, the value of TTC is two-fold A. it is pithy and poetical and B. its incomprehensible (ppl need that). Otherwise if you really really want to know what TTC is about you gotta read Wenzi, of course it is still untranslated.
-
2
-
-
Nothing. Literally nothing, is what we're supposed to do. No caring, no moving, no talking, no thinking. Is this meditation?
Is this the ZZ of the Inner Chapters?
sure its him. and whats wrong with doing nothing?
-
1
-
-
The thing is, unless I'm missing something, the writer makes it no clearer than that. I am quite tired, though. And open to suggestions.
Thats quite true, its a hellishly difficult chpt to translate. Moreover it cant be done without being familiar with the background. This chapter is shorthand, luckily the main concepts of it are unveiled in full here:
《九守》
《道德》
老子曰：釋道而任智者危，棄數而用才者困，故守分循理，失之不憂，得之不喜。成者非所為，得者非所求，入者有受而無取，出者有授而無與，因春而生，因秋而殺，所生不德，所殺不怨，則幾於道矣。
文子問曰：王者得其歡心，為之奈何？
老子曰：若江海即是也，「淡兮無味，用之不既」，先小而後大。「夫欲上人者，必以其言下之，欲先人者，必以其身後之」，天下必效其歡愛，進其仁義，而無苛氣，「居上而民不重，居前而眾不害，天下樂推而不厭。」雖絕國殊俗，蜎飛蠕動，莫不親，無之而不通，無往而不遂，「故為天下貴。」
Lao-zi said: to let go of Dao (autocratic governing) and relying on the experts instead is dangerous; to abandon calculations and employing the technocrats instead is problematic; therefore (the king) should be happy with his natural lot, not saddened by a loss, not gladdened by a gain. Accomplishing without acting, obtaining without seeking, accepting what comes to you without taking, giving up what leaves you without clinging, letting live in spring, executing in autumn, let live without mercy, execute without anger, this is the mechanism of Dao.
Wen-zi asked: how can the king make the hearts of people loyal and loving him?
Lao-zi replied: it is like rivers and sea ‘the water is potable when it has not reach the sea yet’, when it is small and not big. That’s why ‘if you want to rise above people then in speech you should belittle yourself, and if you want to be ahead of people you should place your body behind them’, then the Underheaven will certainly be loyal and loving him, if he promotes humanness and duty, and does not spread harsh qi. Then it will be that ‘the superiors do not burden the people, the leaders do not harm the people, if so the Underheaven will rejoice and not reject the king’. (Let the king in relations) with the outlying states, even if they are like worms and moths, not be close with any, not to make advances to them, nor retain them, not pursue them, in this way he will become the most cherished sovereign in the Underheaven.
-
Well... that's how it's written....
Prove me wrong.
I understand what you are saying. Those are the words in chinese you replace them with words in english and thats that. Which is cool.
Now, with all due respect and ceremony could you paraphrase what it says in operative language? might be interesting;)
-
1
-
-
亦不可㝵而疋 One cannot obtain distance,
不可㝵而利 Not obtaining profit,
亦不可㝵而害 One cannot obtain harm,
不可㝵而貴 Not obtaining riches,
亦不可㝵而戔 One cannot obtain poverty;
古爲天下貴 And one treasures all
seriously what is this? who on earth would need to 'obtain poverty' or distance, or harm? come on.
-
this is why I don't pay attention to Legge translations. Where under heaven did he get "nostrils" from?
nostrils are portals.
-
As per the usual, the official translators had no clue that chpt 16 is a conspectus of concepts and vocabulary elaborated on in another contemporary text:
The Yizhoushu (simplified Chinese: 逸周书; traditional Chinese: 逸周書; pinyin: Yìzhōushū; Wade–Giles: I Chou shu; literally: "Lost Book of Zhou") is a compendium of Chinese historical documents about the Western Zhou period (1046–771 BCE).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yizhoushu
which says
民性歸利，王若欲來天下民，先設其利而民自至，譬之若冬日之陽，夏日之陰，不召而民自來，此謂歸德。五德既明，民乃知常。
The nature of the people is to come back to the profit, if the king wants to make the people of the Earth come to him, he first establishes profitable conditions, so the people come on their own, it can be likened to changes of seasons that come on their own, so when the people come of their own volition is called ‘ a re-establishment of De’. Once the 5 De are bright, it means that the people know morals 常.
So:
道德經16
致虛極，when the resources of the country are exhausted to the limit,
守靜督。preserve peace,
萬物並作，吾以觀復。Watching the evolution of the things I noticed that they are multi-leveled
天物芸芸，各復歸其根。All the things under Heaven have layers, and each layer is based on the common root
歸根曰靜，是謂復命。Which is peace, if there is peace means that Heaven has renewed your mandate to govern
復命曰常，知常曰明。Renovation of the mandate depends on morals of your people, if they have morals then there is a spiritual protection
不知常，妄作凶。No morals, the spirits will create calamity.
知常容，容乃公，公乃王，王乃天，天乃道，道乃久，立身不殆
So the morals of the commoners, rise to the nobility, the morals of the nobility rise to the king, kings morals rise to Heaven, Heaven’s morals rise to Dao, and if this continues long there will be no danger to king’s person.
-
3
-
-
Jumping in without reading any of these 10 pages. Because I'm lazy like that.
至虛恆也 Reach the empty eternal,
獸中篤也 Maintain in honesty;
萬物方作居以頒復也 Life flourishes all around, living in coming and going;
....
Well...not really happy with the first 2 lines -- especially as I'm not sure what's meant in line 2
here is an illustration of the first two lines by the contemporaries
《道應訓》
尹需學禦，三年而無得焉。私自苦痛，常寢想之。中夜，夢受秋駕于師。明日往朝，師望之，謂之曰：「吾非愛道於子也，恐子不可予也。今日教子以秋駕。」尹需反走，北面再拜曰：「臣有天幸，今夕固夢受之。」故老子曰：「致虛極，守靜篤，萬物並作，吾以觀其複也。」
Yǐn-xū have been studying the art of driving a chariot for 3 years but still could not get it. He was pained by that, and keeping it to himself constantly pondered it. One night he saw a dream as if he received a driver of the imperial chariot as a teacher. Morning after he went to the court, teacher saw him and said thusly: “earlier I would not give Dao to you sir, being afraid that you can not take it. Today, I will teach you how to drive the imperial chariot.”
Yin-xu retreated, faced the north and bowed twice saying: “certainly I, the servant received Heavenly blessing in the dream yesterday.”
This is an example of what Lao-zi talks about: ‘with emptiness reaching its limit – let me guard the calm assiduously, if so – the all things will evolve and I will just observe their multitude’.
-
1
-
-
Yes, and this is supported by Chuang Tzu a number of times as I recall.
-
2
-
-
Legge
道德經:致虛極，守靜篤。萬物並作，吾以觀復。夫物芸芸，各復歸其根。歸根曰靜，是謂復命。復命曰常，知常曰明。不知常，妄作凶。知常容，容乃公，公乃王，王乃天，天乃道，道乃久，沒身不殆。 Dao De Jing:(Returning to the root)
The (state of) vacancy should be brought to the utmost degree, and that of stillness guarded with unwearying vigour. All things alike go through their processes of activity, and (then) we see them return (to their original state). When things (in the vegetable world) have displayed their luxuriant growth, we see each of them return to its root. This returning to their root is what we call the state of stillness; and that stillness may be called a reporting that they have fulfilled their appointed end. The report of that fulfilment is the regular, unchanging rule. To know that unchanging rule is to be intelligent; not to know it leads to wild movements and evil issues. The knowledge of that unchanging rule produces a (grand) capacity and forbearance, and that capacity and forbearance lead to a community (of feeling with all things). From this community of feeling comes a kingliness of character; and he who is king-like goes on to be heaven-like. In that likeness to heaven he possesses the Dao. Possessed of the Dao, he endures long; and to the end of his bodily life, is exempt from all danger of decay. -
I wonder if both understandings could be true? That the character meant something about removing evil to some in the Western Zhou, but hunting to others. Because they both seem quite plausible.
I think it was Keightley
http://ieas.berkeley.edu/faculty/keightley.html
who in one of his articles pointed to identical terminology for hunting, warfare and punitive expeditions in Shang.
-
1
-
-
Well, leaving out the king bit, because I think most of us agree that it was put in out of necessity rather than desire..
“Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else.”
-
1
-
-
Each time I transalte this one it comes out different.
here is today's version.
61白雲朝頂上。甘露灑須彌。
the white clouds move toward the peak
the sweet syrup must be overflowing
Hi SB, thanks for your translation. What do these 2 lines mean thou?
-
I'm at the point where I consider things such as enlightenment, calm abiding, etc. as state attainments and not really attached to them anymore. I am satisfied with my current ability to find bliss and happiness without formal meditative techniques. In short I am a happy guy and not inclined to persevere due to this fact.
-
2
-
-
Have a fun trip!
in the meantime...
有物混成，先天地生。There is a thing formed from chaos, born before Heaven-and-Earth.
寂兮寥兮，獨立而不改，周行而不殆，可以為天下母。
Utterly silent, utterly rarified, self-sufficient and immutable, it circulates without end, due to that it can serve as the matrix of Under Heaven.
吾不知其名，字之曰道，強為之名曰大。
We do not know its name, call it Dao, tenuously name it the great.
大曰逝，逝曰遠，遠曰反。
This greatness first expands near, then expands far, then circulates back.
故道大，天大，地大，王亦大。
Thus the greatness of Dao first creates the greatness of the Heaven, then the greatness of the Earth and that of the king.
域中有四大(夫)，而王居其一焉。
Although in a state there are also Four Great Ministers but the king is unique, residing separately as One (with Dao).
謂王者人靈之主，萬物系其興亡也。
For king is called the master, the numinous man, all things depend on him for life or death.
人法地，地法天，天法道，道法自然。
When it is so then the people will obey Earth (and the king), Earth will obey Heaven, Heaven will obey Dao, and Dao will obey naturalness.-
3
-
-
You're surely not suggesting I never ask questions?
no i was impugning those 'official' translators, not you, you know whose books are on the shelf in any barns&nobles, right next to the self-help section;)
-
1
-
-
My GD translation
大曰筮 A greatness we can only guess at,
筮曰遠 To have to guess, it surely goes far,
I totally dig these 2 lines
-
Then there was
"国中又四大 This realm has four Greats,
而王居一安 And the King is one;"
I don't think "central 中" would be used only to say "this." It seems to continue talking about "returning" to the center.
国中又四大 At the center of the nation are also the Four Greats
而王居一安 Where the king dwells居 in oneness一 and tranquility安
This is always translated "and the king is one." Why???
Why leave out 安 tranquility???
When 居 dwelling is used in the Dao De Jing it's pretty much always referring to dwelling in a state of being. So when we have "dwelling oneness tranquility" why, for the love of mercy, does everyone just omit such a doctrinally important word from the sentence???
I need to go center myself in the Four Greats again and find my inner sovereign. This is driving me to no end..
excellent questions, people never ask questions nowadays. no questioning - no understanding. This is a very diffucult passage, I dare say. Previous translations have no continuity, they just string togeter 4-5 weird statements with no rhyme nor reason.
-
1
-
-
Exactly what 'state' ?
apparently wiki says Zhou
later on it would become any state that would accept his followers (Huang-Lao school) armed with TTC, going from court to court, like Confucious or Mo did.
一曰慈，二曰儉，三曰不敢為天下先。
First is mercy, second reservation, third – not daring to become the dominant state in Under Heaven.
This makes me think of the evolution that came from the re-interpretions mentioned above... which became: Heaven, Earth, Man.
Could be; it seems that 'the 3 gems' in politics was a placeholder formula for the 3 principles that make a country strong with a content that differed accourding to the school:
like this:
Han Fei's interpretation of Legalism stressed that the autocrat will be able to achieve the ultimate ends of Legalist philosophy of firm control over the state with the mastering of three concepts: his position of power (勢, Shì); certain techniques (術, Shù), and laws (法, Fǎ) as described in his classic work, the Han Feizi (book).
or this:
http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E4%B8%89%E5%AF%B6
夫劍產于越，珠產于江漢，玉產于昆山，此三寶者
swords, pearls, jade
文王曰：「敢問三寶？」
太公曰：「大農、大工，大商，謂之三寶
large agriculture, workforce, trade
-
1
-
-
I won't say that that meaning isn't there... but I don't know if it's quite as overt as all that...?
They say that the literature of those times came from a broiling milieu of social engineers, wizards, strategists, warriors for hire who were traveling from a court to a royal court seeking grants, implementation and a worthy sovereign. The texts like TTC were composed for the prince to read, understand and implement, so they had to be practical, precise and overt. To wit:
Han Feizi, Wade-Giles romanization Han Fei-tzu (Chinese: “Master Han Fei”) (born c. 280, China—died 233 bce, China), the greatest of China’s Legalist philosophers. His essays on autocratic government so impressed King Zheng of Qin that the future emperor adopted their principles after seizing power in 221 bce.
A member of the ruling family of Han, one of the weaker of the warring states that were in conflict during the 5th–3rd centuries bce, he studied under the Confucian philosopher Xunzi but deserted him to follow another school of thought more germane to the conditions accompanying the collapse of the feudal system in his time. Finding that his advice to the ruler of his native state went unheeded, he put his ideas into writing.
If the author would write with a Taoist attitude in mind 'oh this cryptic book of mine means anything you want it to mean Your Highness', he would have been kicked out in a a jiff.
-
道德經67
《道德經》:
天下皆謂我道大，似不肖。
Every (warring state in) Under Heaven proclaims territorial expansion as its strategy (Dao), which seems not clever.
夫唯大，故似不肖。若肖久矣。其細也夫！
It is the expansion, that makes it not clever. For when such cleverness goes on long – it becomes knavery.
我有三寶，持而保之。
My (state), on the other hand have 3 gems (different from those of the other states), to those 3 we will hold fast.
一曰慈，二曰儉，三曰不敢為天下先。
First is mercy, second reservation, third – not daring to become the dominant state in Under Heaven.
慈故能勇；儉故能廣；不敢為天下先，故能成器長。
Mercy to my people will make brave warriors out of them; reservation will allow us to build a reserve of war chariots; not daring to become the dominant state in Under Heaven will allow my state to complete its projects and to last.
今舍慈且勇；舍儉且廣；舍後且先；死矣！
The others abandon mercy yet want bravery from their army; abandon economy yet want to build chariots; abandon the rear yet want to become the dominant state - are bound to perish.
夫慈以戰則勝，以守則固。天將救之，以慈衛之。
(But my state) will gain victory in war due to mercy, and then will hold firm (to the territory). (After that) the Heaven will protect our gains, and it will stay secure due to the mercy (our ruler shows to his people).-
2
-
[TTC Study] Chapter 56 of the Tao Teh Ching
in Daodejing
Posted
yes bits and pieces of it
《文子 - Wenzi》
《文子》 [Also known as: 《通玄真經》]
《上禮》
老子曰：為禮者雕琢人性，矯拂其情，目雖欲之禁以度，心雖樂之節以禮，趣翔周旋，屈節卑拜，肉凝而不食，酒徵而不飲，外束其形，內愁其德，鉗陰陽之和而迫性命之情，故終身為哀人。何則？不本其所以欲，而禁其所欲，不原其所以樂，而防其所樂，是猶圈獸而不塞其垣，禁其野心，決江河之流而壅之以手，故曰：開其兌，濟其事，終身不救。
Lao-zi said: to use ritual to polish people’s nature, to straighten their emotions, means to ban the desire of the eye using propriety, to regulate the joy of the heart with ritual. If it develops it will lead to flattery and false humbleness, it will be like storing meat – and not eating it, like filtering wine – and not drinking it, the body will be bound from outside, the virtue will be stifled on the inside, the harmony of yin and yang will like in pincers and passions of Xing-Ming will be strained, so this will be one ruined person his whole life. How so? Because to forbid him desires and joys it will be like putting a wild beast into a cage with transparent walls, constraining his wild heart would be like stopping the flow of a river with the palm of your heart. That is why (TTC) says: ‘close your senses, stop your affairs, then your entire life there will be no saving you’.
and for the good mesure on the same chapter
《淮南子 - Huainanzi》 [Western Han (206 BC - 9)]In the choice of a wife, don't be led away by the senses.—After the death of the queen of Ch‛i, the King desired to choose a queen-consort from the concubines. The matter still pending, he took counsel with the ministerial body. Duke Hsueh, wishing to fall in with the purpose of the King, sent a present of ten ear-rings of which one pair was most beautiful. One morning, later, p. 131 he enquired of the servitors which of the maids had the beautiful pair and advised the king to make her his consort. (He thus wished to curry favour with the king and the new queen). The king of Ch‛i was most delighted and heaped honours on Duke Hsueh. Thus when the master's desires are revealed to the servant, a handle is given the servant to control the master. Just as Lao Tzu says: (Chap. 52.)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/tgl/tgl5.htm