Taoist Texts

Hey Dusty

 

do you belive in ghosts?

 

Yep. A little carry-over of the older Shamanistic traditions in that chapter. That always rubbed me wrong but I have learned to not take it too seriously anymore.

 

this is taken with beer

 

60

道德經:

治大國若烹小鮮。以道蒞天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神，其神不傷人；非其神不傷人，聖人亦不傷人。夫兩不相傷，故德交歸焉。 Dao De Jing:

(Occupying the throne)
Governing a great state is like cooking small fish.
Let the kingdom be governed according to the Dao, and the manes of the departed will not manifest their spiritual energy. It is not that those manes have not that spiritual energy, but it will not be employed to hurt men. It is not that it could not hurt men, but neither does the ruling sage hurt them.
When these two do not injuriously affect each other, their good influences converge in the virtue (of the Dao).

 

道德經60

《道德經》: 治大國若烹小鮮。以道蒞天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神，其神不傷人；非其神不傷人，聖人亦不傷人。夫兩不相傷，故德交歸焉。 《老子河上公章句·居位》: 治大國者若烹小鮮。以道蒞天下，其鬼不神。非其鬼不神，其神不傷人。非其神不傷人，聖人亦不傷。夫兩不相傷，故德交歸焉。 《馬王堆·老子甲德經》: □□□□□□□□□□天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神也，其神不傷人也；非其申不傷人也，聖人亦弗傷□。□□不相□，□德交歸焉。 《馬王堆·老子乙德經》: 治大國若亨小鮮。以道立天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神也，其神不傷人也；非其神不傷人也，□□□弗傷也。夫兩□相傷，故德交歸焉。

I'd note that in the TTC, there isn't a single suggestion for people to worship, sacrifice, be obedient, etc,

 

That very well could be true but what about chpt 60?

 

60

道德經:

治大國若烹小鮮。以道蒞天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神，其神不傷人；非其神不傷人，聖人亦不傷人。夫兩不相傷，故德交歸焉。 Dao De Jing:

(Occupying the throne)

Governing a great state is like cooking small fish.

Let the kingdom be governed according to the Dao, and the manes of the departed will not manifest their spiritual energy. It is not that those manes have not that spiritual energy, but it will not be employed to hurt men. It is not that it could not hurt men, but neither does the ruling sage hurt them.

When these two do not injuriously affect each other, their good influences converge in the virtue (of the Dao).

It is what you want from it but can't be limited by what you or others think it is.

 

Wishful thinking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

There've been plenty of teachers (even in the last few decades) who are *extremely* advanced mystically and misbehave otherwise,

 

may be thats the other way around. Could it be that they were not advanced mystically but rather mistycally challenged?

hobo,

 

Care to enlighten me how you have come upon this realization?

 

Hi;) oh i just read stuff

 

 

Or Is your word eternally right?

Normally yes, since i am a professional on these matters.

 

Why would Chinese Astrology base your sign on your birth year, rather than your 'inception' year?

 

pls check these links out for starters

 

 

http://characters.cultural-china.com/talk22.html

 

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/36461-how-do-you-calculate-your-age/

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_age_reckoning

Hi there,

 

I'm wondering if someone can provide me to some references or give me their direct experience of the following:

 

- Zhu You Shu 祝由術 : also known as "chinese hypnosis". How might this have been done in ancient times? Are there passages describing methodologies in the Huang Di Nei Jing, other medical canons or pieces of Taoist literature?

 

http://baike.baidu.com/view/326375.htm

Hi Gmp, I was wandering how the plumbing and sewage works at yr place? Thanks

i dont understand this passage. what is its point besides a trivial observation that jeopardising own life is not smart?

the slave boy how it happened: well, he had a bundle of writing slips and was reading a book.

 

this hints at a remarkable literacy ratio for those times. heck for any times

This is one of the few times I actually wish I could read Chinese, and especially the Characters of Lao Tzu's time.

make like a vicar and enjoy it vicariously

無死地 -- "there is no place of death". 無 never means "should", does it?

 

of course not bu the whole bit reads to that effect

 

蓋聞善攝生者，陸行不遇兕虎，入軍不被甲兵；兕無所投其角，虎無所措其爪，兵無所容其刃。

 

夫何故？why do these bad things above do not happen to them?

以because 其 they 無are not 死地 in deathlands。

 

sorry about that, i was to terse for my own good;)

1. 人之生，動之死地

-- 死地 occurs twice in the chapter, but you seem to brush past the mention of "death" in the first instance?

 

Good point. Lets compare editions

 

 

《道德經》: 出生入死。生之徒，十有三；死之徒，十有三；人之生，動之死地，十有三。夫何故？以其生，生之厚。蓋聞善攝生者，陸行不遇兕虎，入軍不被甲兵；兕無所投其角，虎無所措其爪，兵無所容其刃。夫何故？以其無死地。

《老子河上公章句·貴生》: 出生入死。生之徒十有三，死之徒死十有三，人之生，動之死地十有三。夫何故，以其求生之厚。蓋以聞善攝生者，路行不遇兕虎，入軍不披甲兵，兕無投其角，虎無所措爪，兵無所容其刃。夫何故，以其無死地。

《馬王堆·老子甲德經》: □生□□□□□□有□□□徒，十有三；而民生生，動皆之死地之十有三。夫何故也？以其生生也。蓋□□執生者，陵行不□矢虎，入軍不被甲兵；矢無所投其角，虎無所昔其蚤，兵無所容□□。□何故也？以其無死地焉。

《馬王堆·老子乙德經》: □生入死。生之□□□□□之徒，十又三；而民生生，僮皆之死地之十有三。□何故也？以其生生。蓋聞善執生者，陵行不辟兕虎，入軍不被兵；革兕無□□□□□□□□其蚤兵□□□□□□□□也？以其無□□□。

 

 

so MWD specifically has 而民生生 the commoners that multiply 動皆 all are active (動) in the lands of death 之死地之十有三 and constitute the last 1/3 rd.

However,

 

徒 means follower or believer, right? How does that fit with the working population theory?

 

sure, as a noun, but its core meaning is 'to go on foot' as per zdic

 

● 徒

tú ㄊㄨˊ

　1. 步行：～步。～涉。

　2. 空：～手。

　3. 白白地：～然。～劳无益。

　4. 只；仅仅：家～四壁。

　5. 从事学习的人：～弟。～工。学～。师～。

　6. 同一派系或信仰同一宗教的人：信～。教～。党～。

　7. 人（多指坏人）：匪～。暴～。赌～。叛～。

　8. 剥夺犯人自由的刑法：～刑。

so 1/3rd goes from birth onward etc , so TTC makes the same age analysis as the modern graph below

Don't ask me. I new here.

You and me both. These people just lazily substitute chinese words for english ones and call it translating.

 

thirteen messengers here they come

 

The chinese believe its the inception moment that counts. E.g. what time of day and the year season the embryo is incepted, the birthday not so much.

And, in the first half, the numbers don't add up. In your translation there is only 90% accounted for. In Henricks' translation he talks about thirteen companions of life and death.

 

thats true. to highlight my point that this chapt is about demographics i used percentages (fractions of 100), which the chinese did not have at that time. They used tenths instead. When a a ten had to be split three ways there would always be an odd one, corresponding to a statistical error. Any measurement or a count is always an approximation. The entire population would never be fully accounted for what with robbers, good for nothings, AWOLers and fantasy taoists, thats the remaining 10% for you so TTC is just being realistic here

 

 

In Henricks' translation he talks about thirteen companions of life and death.

 

who s that and where are they now?

道德經50

 

《道德經》: 出生入死。The balance of births and deaths in a state

生之徒，十有三；死之徒，十有三；人之生，動之死地，十有三。On average out of 100% of the population, 30% are just born, 30% are nearing death; and 30% are of productive age.

夫何故？以其生，生之厚。How can the productive age population be multiplied?

蓋聞善攝生者，To enlarge this population stratum

陸行不遇兕虎，入軍不被甲兵；兕無所投其角，虎無所措其爪，兵無所容其刃。

it should be kept safe from wild animals and war.

夫何故？以其無死地。

Or in other words, it should not be placed in the ‘lands of death’. (places of danger).

 

 

Basically this is about husbanding the population by the king. The best way to do it is to keep it out of danger, then it will multiply on its own. Its that simple.

 

Of course later on this was made to be about some fantasy taoists being good at managing own vitality to the point of becoming impermeable to sharp objects. Right.

The hilarity aside, the meaning of this chapter is long forgotten and can not be reconstructed based on the text and its variations alone. The thing is, this chapter represents a counter argument to what the Confucians were positing at that time:

 

徐子以告夷子。夷子曰：「儒者之道，古之人『若保赤子』，

The disciple Xu informed Yi of these remarks. Yi said, 'Even according to the principles of the learned, we find that the ancients acted towards the people "as if they were watching over an infant."

 

王曰：「嗚呼！封，有敘時，乃大明服，惟民其敕懋和。若有疾，惟民其畢棄咎。若保赤子，

Announcement to the Prince...:

The king says, 'Oh! Feng, there must be the orderly regulation (of this matter). When you show a great discrimination, subduing (men's hearts), the people will admonish one another, and strive to be obedient. (Deal firmly yet tenderly with evil), as if it were a disease in your own person, and the people will entirely put away their faults;. (Deal with them) as if you were protecting your own infants

 

大學:

所謂治國必先齊其家者，其家不可教而能教人者，無之。故君子不出家而成教於國：孝者，所以事君也；弟者，所以事長也；慈者，所以使眾也。《康誥》曰：「如保赤子」，

 

Da Xue:

What is meant by "In order rightly to govern the state, it is necessary first to regulate the family," is this: It is not possible for one to teach others, while he cannot teach his own family. Therefore, the ruler, without going beyond his family, completes the lessons for the state. There is filial piety - therewith the sovereign should be served. There is fraternal submission - therewith elders and superiors should be served. There is kindness - therewith the multitude should be treated. In the Announcement to Kang, it is said, "Act as if you were watching over an infant."

 

Etc.

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E8%B5%A4%E5%AD%90

 

so the argument of the Confucians was that you have deal with the populace as if it was a newborn high-maintenance infant. This was countered by Huang-lao to the tune of ‘ the infant is the most healthy and vibrant creature on the Earth, he is safe on his own’ so likening the populace to an infant means that there is no need to actively manage it or to make it grow up. If the populace ever grows up it will be against Dao and the state will be short-lived.

 

Due to the fragmentary nature of TTC the meaning of the ‘infant’ and its role in the dispute was soon forgotten and the chapter mistaken for some kind of nonsensical self-cultivation advice. Which of course brings us back full circle to the hilarity.

《下德》

 

老子曰：身處江海之上，心在魏闕之下，即重生，重生即輕利矣。猶不能自勝即從之，神無所害也，不能自勝而強不從，是謂重傷，重傷之人無壽類矣。故曰：{知和曰常，知常曰明，益生曰祥，心使氣曰強，}是謂玄同，用其光，復歸其明。

 

{Parallel to TTC 55}

 

Lao-zi said: “the body is by the rivers and the sea, the heart is at the court of Wei” means to lead a double life, and to lead a double life means to neglect your own profit. If you can not overcome your desire to go (to the court) – then go so your spirit is not harmed; but if you can not overcome your desire to go and yet would not go – that would be called a double injury, those who have double injury are not longevous. Therefore it is said: {capability of harmony is constancy, benefiting life is a good omen, command the qi with heart is strength} all of it is called the Dark Unity, its usable brightness comes from returning to the bright spirits.

My apologies if you felt that I was referring to you with that post. You'll note that I said anyone claiming to have the correct translation is a liar

 

The Chinese here says "open (qi) dui,

assist (qi) affairs,

济（济）jì

 

⒈渡，过河：同船～水。同舟共～。

 

⒉帮助，援救：接～。救～。～穷扶贫。

 

⒊有利，补益：万民以～。

 

⒋成：夫～大事必以人为本。

OK. And I understand the water analogy as it applies in the Laozi (e.g. ch.8, 15), but..

 

How can something be both?

 

 

Both unmixed, clear, level, and allowed to flow (so it doesn't become stagnant). How can something flow and not mix?

 

水之性，不雜則清，莫動則平，鬱閉而不流，亦不能清，天德之象也。

 

the idea is that your Heavenly virtue is like a stream of water in the nature. Unless somebody or something will put (mix) some dirt in it - its gonna stay clean; unless this stream is disturbed - its gonna stay peaceful and level; and if this stream is blocked then it will become green with aglae (not clear). So all you need to do with your viirtue is not to dirty it and not to force it. Basically do nothing with it;)

how would you feel about a sub-forum for Wenzi for a room where you can lead a translation?

hmmm, thanks....sure why the heck not?