Taoist Texts

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Posts posted by Taoist Texts

  1. Posted

    Well, isn't every reasonable POV at least a little conflicted?

     

     

     

     

    It's a manual for a king; but we're commoners.

     

    thats the thing you see, its a matter of self-definition, contrary to the royal 'we',  those who define themselves as 'we' are commoners, those who are 'I' are nobility. Nobility is a long and lonsome road.

     

    曾子曰：「士不可以不弘毅，任重而道遠。仁以為己任，不亦重乎？死而後已，不亦遠乎？」

    The teacher said, "The officer may not be but enduring and firm for his burden is heavy and his course is long. To make humanness his duty - is it not heavy? Only after death does his course stop - is it not long?"

     

     

     

     

    How can I pretend to be a king when, according to the laws of any given nation, I am not free to do as I please, even when it harms nobody else?

     

    Thats no problem since the real life kings are bound by more laws than the subjects. The problem is choosing to be the kingdom of one.

     

    Either way, there are conflicting ideas between chapters.

     

    Is it practice non-interference, or rule quietly (running interference)?

    Is it be self-so and let others be self-so, or govern things with intent?

    Those questions need to be elaborated on to be answered.

    • Like 1

  2. Posted

    In all honesty, I don't, any longer. I have picked and chosen, and I now no longer treat the text as any kind of personal instruction manual. At this point, I believe that it contains both wisdom and folly.

    thats an internally conflicted POV;)

     

    More importantly, I know that many others   do base their behaviour around the LZ.

    Role-playing game - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

     

    A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting

     

    So I find it, at the very least, interesting (and possibly even important) to think about whether or not his ideas are reconcilable with human nature, and with other Taoist ideas.

    yes its fun. In TTC there are two protagonists, the King and the commoners. Their roles are different so one has to pick a persona. Its a manual for the king so it makes sense to play the king without  mixing in the commoners' undertones. 

  3. Posted

    What I mean is, how can I reconcile my need to be free to move and explore and learn and grow (things that life does, things that it is in our nature to do!!) with the manipulative ideas presented in some chapters?

    a reasonable departure point for this discourse would be for you to tell us why u need or want to reconcile your behaviour with that text?

     

    why would a 21st century western man care what LZ said?

    • Like 1

  5. Posted

    I am looking for examples where christian texts(mostly interested in the scriptures about Jesus, both recognized and apocryphal and especially Gnostic and texts written by his disciples that might have still had direct transmission) that appear to be remarkably identical in meaning with Taoist and Buddhist texts on inner achievement.

    My view is that all spiritual masters speak of the same thing and that Jesus was an enlightened person, a Buddha but his teaching were misunderstood and the lineage he tried to create died out. I have this theory that behind what is currently known there were secret teachings given only to his disciples and that transmission has been lost . I will post a few of those examples myself. I am also very interested to see what you guys think of this. 

     

    this is a fun topic to discuss, but for the discussion to be truly productive i would suggest you first posit precise criteria of sameness or divergence, otherwise its gonna be apples and oranges.

  6. Posted · Edited by Taoist Texts

    叔器問：「經世書『水火土石』，石只是金否？」

    曰：「它分天地間物事皆是四：如日月星辰，水火土石，雨風露雷，皆是相配。」

    又問：「金生水，如石中出水，是否？」

    曰：「金是堅凝之物，到這裏堅實後，自拶得水出來。」

     

    《邵子之書》

     

    The student asked: ‘The book of governing’ lists 4 elements as [water, fire, soil, stone], is the ‘stone’ here means ‘metal’ or not?

    The teacher explained: this is a division of all things between the Heaven and Earth into 4 categories, just like [sun, moon, stars, constellations] or [water, fire, soil, stone] or [rain, wind, dew, thunder], these are all matching categories like that.

    The student asked further: when they say ‘metal generates water’ is it  because ‘the spring water flows out of rock formations’?

    The teacher explained: the metal is a solidified and congealed thing, after it  hardens and stiffens like that, its internal pressure squeezes the water out.

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhu_Xi

  7. Posted

    The crux of misunderstanding of this chpt. apparently hinges on ‘mercy’ 慈 [cí] misunderstood as some kind of xtian or ‘western Buddhist’ unconditional love for all, ‘love thy enemy’ which somehow leads to a dualistic (schizophrenic) victory of love/good over evil/enmity.

     

    Agape developed in Christian theology as the love of God or Christ for humankind. In the New Testament, it refers to the covenant love of God for humans, as well as the human reciprocal love for God; the term necessarily extends to the love of one's fellow man.[5].

     

    It is wrong to understand TTC in this way.

     

    In the Chinese reality the mercy is a formulaic behavior of a parent towards his children, hence the standard formula ‘merciful father or mother’. This behavior by extension was attributed to an exemplary king merciful to his subjects, thus assuring the survival of the nation and the dynasty. E g:

     

     

    季康子問：「使民敬、忠以勸，如之何？」子曰：「臨之以莊則敬，孝慈則忠，舉善而教不能，則勸。」

    Wei Zheng:  

    Ji Kang asked how to cause the people to reverence their ruler, to be faithful to him, and to go on to nerve themselves to virtue. The Master said, "Let him preside over them with gravity; then they will reverence him. Let him be filial and kind to all; then they will be faithful to him. Let him advance the good and teach the incompetent; then they will eagerly seek to be virtuous."

     

    :     

    孟子曰：「規矩，方員之至也；聖人，人倫之至也。欲為君盡君道，欲為臣盡臣道，二者皆法堯舜而已矣。不以舜之所以事堯事君，不敬其君者也；不以堯之所以治民治民，賊其民者也。孔子曰：『道二：仁與不仁而已矣。』暴其民甚，則身弒國亡；不甚，則身危國削。名之曰『幽厲』，雖孝子慈孫，百世不能改也。《詩》云『殷鑒不遠，在夏后之世』，此之謂也。」

    Li Lou I:      

    Mencius said, 'The compass and square produce perfect circles and squares. By the sages, the human relations are perfectly exhibited. He who as a sovereign would perfectly discharge the duties of a sovereign, and he who as a minister would perfectly discharge the duties of a minister, have only to imitate - the one Yao, and the other Shun. He who does not serve his sovereign as Shun served Yao, does not respect his sovereign; and he who does not rule his people as Yao ruled his, injures his people. Confucius said, "There are but two courses, which can be pursued, that of virtue and its opposite." A ruler who carries the oppression of his people to the highest pitch, will himself be slain, and his kingdom will perish. If one stop short of the highest pitch, his life will notwithstanding be in danger, and his kingdom will be weakened. He will be styled "The Dark," or "The Cruel," and though he may have filial sons and affectionate grandsons, they will not be able in a hundred generations to change the designation. This is what is intended in the words of the Book of Poetry, "The beacon of Yin is not remote, It is in the time of the (last) sovereign of Xia."'

     

    祭義:    

    先王之所以治天下者五：貴有德，貴貴，貴老，敬長，慈幼。此五者，先王之所以定天下也。貴有德，何為也？為其近於道也。貴貴，為其近於君也。貴老，為其近於親也。敬長，為其近於兄也。慈幼，為其近於子也。

    Ji Yi:     

    There were five things by means of which the ancient kings secured the good government of the whole kingdom - the honour which they paid to the virtuous; to the noble; and to the old; the reverence which they showed to the aged; and their kindness to the young. It was by these five things that they maintained the stability of the kingdom. Why did they give honour to the virtuous? Because of their approximation to the course of duty. They did so to the noble because of their approximation to the position of the ruler; and to the old because of their approximation to that of parents. They showed reverence to the aged, because of their approximation to the position of elder brothers; and kindness to the young, because of their approximation to the position of sons.

     

    子曰：「立愛自親始，教民睦也。立教自長始，教民順也。教以慈睦，而民貴有親；教以敬長，而民貴用命。孝以事親，順以聽命，錯諸天下，無所不行。」

    Ji Yi:     

    The Master said, 'The laying the foundation of (all) love in the love of parents teaches people concord. The laying the foundation of (all) reverence in the reverence of elders teaches the people obedience. When taught loving harmony, the people set the (proper) value on their parents; when taught to reverence their superiors, the people set the (Proper) value in obeying the orders given to them. Filial piety in the service of parents, and obedience in the discharge of orders can be displayed throughout the kingdom, and they will everywhere take effect.

    • Like 2

  8. Posted

    And I would question the use of "mercy" as well but you did use compassion in the last line as well as include it in your comments.

     

     

    Both yours and Crow's are nice.

    to find out just how much nice are those perhaps these learned gentlemen could be asked for an example.

    ....

     

    However, love will triumph in battle and be impregnable in defense.

    Heaven sides with those who possess unconditional love and protects them.

     

    .....

     

     

    huh?

  10. Posted

    This appears to be the approach where I train. We are taught the Secret of the Golden Flower concept of turning the light of the mind around, to focus inward at the lower dan tien.  

     

    How long you have been doing that so far?

  12. Posted

    Hey ;)

     

    i tried it out. its very cool. The features i would add is to have the whole text on one page as an option ; and to have the chinese text alongside or at least separate of the english, it adds genuine flavor even for those who dont read chinese. Also the search returns only one chapter instead of all occurences. And what about audio? All in all good job thanks.

    • Like 2

  16. Posted

    It's been said they are not secret, just you need to get off your lazy ass and see for yourself - you can get proof yourself.

     

    I find it remarkable that this dynamic duo has been working this forum for quite some time already, without producing a single customer for themselves. My esteem for human intelligence went up another notch.

  17. Posted

    And what makes you think you can disprove the teachings of an ancient lineage that is willing to show you immortals in the flesh if you're willing to trust them enough to go see them?

     

    Bluemind

     

    so have you signed up and gone to see them ?

    • Like 2

  19. Posted

    But the so-called "real" Neidan school - what do they do?

     

    1) resort to half-sentence misquote lies about other Neidan teachings.

     

    2) have no proof that their school has any kind of spiritual (insert proper Neidan word here) skills. (i.e. how about post photos of luxuriant hair on their masters heads?). haha.

     

    3) steep themselves in pedantic tautological propaganda that are classic mind-control techniques

     

    4) resort to cheap ad hominems when exposed of the above

     

    5) sit on the internet all day attacking the so-called 1000s of fake schools.

     

    Still Neidan.

  20. Posted

     

    I am interested if anyone has expert knowledge of the religion practiced in this period. I am particularly keen to look at how Buddhism emerged in the social context of

     

    The main feature of the social context in those time was an emergence of an independent human consciousness stripped of the supporting social framework of tribal social structure and tribal vedic religion. Being forced to function on its own without the assurance of traditional ethics was putting an enormous pressure on the individual while alive, and at the same time caused the individual to suffer the anticipated fear of disintegration at death.

     

    Hence the new teachings (called to life by the fall of the earlier civilisations) sprung across the all strata of hindu society

     

     

     

    Apart from the Vedic Brahmins, Buddha's lifetime coincided with the flourishing of other influentialsramana schools of thoughts like Ājīvika, Cārvāka, Jain, and Ajñana. It was also the age of influential thinkers like Mahāvīra, Pūraṇa Kassapa , Makkhali Gosāla, Ajita Kesakambalī, Pakudha Kaccāyana, and Sañjaya Belaṭṭhaputta, whose viewpoints Buddha most certainly must have been acquainted with and influenced by.[8][9][note 7] There is also evidence to suggest that the two masters, Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta, were indeed historical figures and they most probably taught Buddha two different forms of meditative techniques.[10]

     

    By the nature of the hindu society these were varna (or caste) schools, each vying with brahmanism and asserting the superiority of its caste teachings over the brahmanism. In particular krishnaism and buddhism became the religious ideologies of the kshatriya caste.

     

    jqnzer.jpg

     

     

     

     

    http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/collections/journals/bot/pdf/bot_07_01_03.pdf

     

     

    Historical background:

    Ancient history refers to the time period beginning with the first records in writing, approximately 3600 BCE. It ends with the fall of several significant empires, such as the Western Roman Empire in the Mediterranean, the Han Dynasty in China, and the Gupta Empire in India, collectively around 500 CE.

    The Bronze Age is the time period in which humans around the world began to use bronze as a major metal in tools. It is generally accepted as starting around 3600 BCE and ending with the advent of iron in 1000 BCE.

    The Iron Age is often called Antiquity or the Classical Era, but these periods more commonly refer to only one region. It begins around 1000 BCE with the widespread use of ironin tools. It is often accepted to end at approximately 500 CE, with the fall of the aforementioned major civilizations.

  22. Posted

    The iVC was Vedic civilization. The faulty history that they are not is a combination of British imperialist propaganda and ignorance on part of specifically max muller who dated the rg Veda based on the premise that the world was created around 4000 BCE.

    apparently he was right on the money cause accepted dates now are

     

     

    The Rigveda's core is accepted to date to the late Bronze Age, making it one of the few examples with an unbroken tradition. Its composition is usually dated to roughly between c.1500-1200 BCE.[4][5][6][note 3] Philological estimates tend to date the bulk of the text to the second half of the second millennium.[note 4] Being composed in an early Indo-Aryanlanguage, the hymns must post-date the Indo-Iranian separation, dated to roughly 2000 BC.[35] A reasonable date close to that of the composition of the core of the Rigveda is that of the Indo-Aryan Mitanni documents of c. 1400 BC.[36] Other evidence also points to a composition close to 1400 BC.[37][38]

  23. Posted

    Zhuangzi: - Fa (return) Ming (destiny)

     

    聖人達綢繆，周盡一體矣，而不知其然，性也。復命搖作而以天為師，人則從而命之也。憂乎知而所行恆無幾時，其有止也若之何？

     

     

    Tr. Burton

    The sage penetrates bafflement and complication, rounding all into a single body, yet he does not know why - it is his inborn nature. He returns to fate

     

     

     

    This relevant quote kindly provided by Dawei is yet another example of how the ancient Chinese concepts are mistranslated and misunderstood, even by the alleged experts, so the below analysis is for your, oh you merry gentlemen, good pleasure.

     

    Fate is defined as:

     

    Destiny or Fate is a predetermined course of events

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destiny

     

    Example: ‘I wanted to have a tuna sandwich but there was only ham left in the fridge, so it was my unavoidable fate to have ham sandwich” . That makes sense.

     

    Now, if I say ‘it was my fate to have ham but I went ahead and had tuna anyway’ that would be an erroneous and meaningless usage of the word fate, rendering the overall statement meaningless.

     

    Either you can not deviate from fate and consequently can not return to it, OR, there is no fate in any meaningful sense of the word (which makes “returning to it” meaningless as well).

     

    Therefore ‘returning to fate’ is a meaningless statement, arising from a literal (mis)translation. But what does 復命 fù-mìng mean in reality?

     

    Turns out it is a technical bureaucratic term in ancient China:

     

    复命

    fù mìnɡ

    [report on completion of mission]

    http://cidian.xpcha.com/7a4gd6q5sn2.html

     

    Or, more precisely it is to ‘return the mandate’ as in ‘the emperor hands his minister a specific mandate (an order written on silk) to accomplish a certain mission. On accomplishing it, the minister reports back and hands the mandate back to the emperor’

     

    In proto-Taoist lore this term ‘to return the mandate’ came to be used in a sense of ‘rejecting the external impulses (orders)’. However this expression is far from being a part of the key terminology, since it is used exactly once in ZZ and exactly once in TTC, which is absolutely insufficient to establish a frame of references

     

    《道德經 - Dao De Jing》歸根曰靜，是謂復命。復命曰常

     

    TTC ‘Return to the root is calm, it is called ‘rejecting the orders’, it is constancy’

     

    Think about it for a moment: if you take 復命 to be ‘returning to fate’ meaning ‘starting obeying fate again’ how that would be calm or constancy? It makes no sense. Doing (again) whatever fate orders you to do is no calm nor constancy.

    On the other hand, if I receive orders but choose and am able to reject them, then I will stay in calm. That makes sense.

     

    Same with ZZ

     

    《莊子 - Zhuangzi》復命搖作而以天為師，人則從而命之也。

     

    ZZ. “(the sage) rejects orders and act with only Heaven as his teacher (meaning that he is spontaneous just as Heaven is, not obeying anyone’s orders) but the commoners follow the fate’. This makes sense, the official translation above – does not.

     

    Therefore 復命 does not mean ‘return to fate’. It means the exact opposite ‘reject fate’

     

    In conclusion, I would like to summarize a take-away lesson from this analysis: “when you ponder an expert opinion on a concept in an ancient text, please be aware that there is an excellent chance of said opinion be the exact opposite of what the text meant to say”.

     

    thatsalllogo.gif

    • Like 2

  24. Posted

     

    From what I understand, Liu Yiming is saying transforming one's post-celestial, destiny granted by heaven ming into pre-celestial, breath of tao ming, may be accomplished by resting upon the direction of one's destiny and applying the operation of generation within it, this generation within the conquest of destiny

     

    Thats a fine understanding.

     

    All I have to add is that (1) Liu as any other alchemical author must be read and translated with clear understanding of alchemy in mind. Until the reader is not clear on alchemy he has no chance of getting what Liu is really saying.

     

    (2) The issue of destiny is practical for a practitioner thats why I raised it in the "neidan" thread. It was considered a derailment because folks do not realise that by practicing without destiny they are going to hurt themselves. The truer the teacher and the method, the more true qi they are getting - the stronger is the hurt.

     

     

    this chart by Mantak Chia's pinponts the bodily damage according to emotions displayed in patient's words. No need to see a person face to face to know that he has derailed because he was born a train but fancied himself to be a plane.

     

    nagative.jpg

    • Like 3