Taoist Texts
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Hey, thanks for the link! So this must be the 66 posture form?
yes it is, your welcome anytime.
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For refrence, the yellow captions appear at the following times:
0:01 - I think this is the name of the form, possibly also the name of the performer, Master Lu Gui-Yao.
These captions from left to right: Lu's standard performance, someone named Pan Hai-rong, 'starting posture 起式， name of a participating student, full name of the style 華嶽心意六合八法 huá yuè xīn yì liù hé bā fǎ
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“Well...so we can be fairly sure that it means know...protect... but I still can't figure out how one might translate the 3 lines of ch.28 to mean anything particularly useful...?”
Yes those are totally useless in their current shape, largely because the subject of the sentence is not specified, but its gonna get worse before it gets better.
Lets pick one of the more strange expressions 為天下式 ‘become/make Underheaven’s model’ and discover that it occurs also in 22: 是以聖人抱一為天下式 ‘the sage embraces One, becomes/makes Underheaven’s model’.
Still not much sense but at least there is the subject, the sage. Now, looking at the Mawangdui variants of 22 we see something weird: instead of model 式shi it has a governor 為天下牧 mu. To become a governor makes more sense than to become a model, or a valley or a creek.
Emboldened by this we make a search on 天下牧 governors in Underheaven, returning two passages from The Book of Han http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Han
《漢書 - Han Shu》
12 王莽傳中:
天下牧守皆以前有翟義、趙明等領州郡，懷忠孝，封牧為男，守為附城。又封舊恩戴崇、金涉、箕閎、楊並等子皆為男。
In Underheaven, the Governors and the Protectors … being loyal and filial…granted governorship they were made into Lords, granted Protector-ship they were enfeoffed with fiefs.
37 多刻天下牧守印章，備置公卿百官。
There were many seals carved for Governors and Protectors of Underheaven, there were appointments of Dukes , Ministers, and the Hundred Officials.
Comparing this with the text of received 28, we do find the same and related keywords there
道德經28
知其雄，守 Protectors其雌，為天下Underheaven谿。為天下谿，常德不離，復歸於嬰兒。
知其白，守Protectors其黑，為天下式。為天下式 Governors of Underheaven，常德不忒，復歸於無極。
知其榮，守Protectors其辱，為天下Underheaven谷。為天下谷，常德乃足，復歸於樸。
樸散則為器 officials，聖人用之，則為官長top officialdom，故大制governing structure不割。
Enough to hint that this passage is about building up a hierarchy of state officials in a checked and balanced way, since it includes the pairs of opposites male-female, black-white, fame-shame. Coming back to the equation ‘know+protect’ we can expand it now as
know (white) + Protectors ( black) = Governors for the Underheaven.
The last unknown is 知zhi (know). Could it be a title as well? Of course it can.
E.g. 知州Pinyin: zhī zhōu senior provincial government official in dynastic China
If so what would the general import of the whole passage be? Probably it means something like:
Check and balance the top officials, promote those with unswerving De, bring the whole country to the state of uncarved block or a newborn (which are without internal strife), then out of that uncarved block select the new officials as needed and the whole grand system of governing will be safe.
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Another passage that contains formula ‘know 知 +protect守=governing’ is found in
《荀子 - Xunzi》[Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)]
Xunzi ([ɕy̌ntsì]; Chinese: 荀子; Wade–Giles: Hsün Tzu, c. 310 – c. 235 BC, alt. c. 314 – c. 217 B.C.)[1] was a Chinese Confucian philosopher who lived during the Warring States period and contributed to one of the Hundred Schools of Thought. Xunzi believed man's inborn tendencies need to be curbed through education and ritual, counter to Mencius's view that man is innately good. He believed that ethical norms had been invented to rectify mankind.
Educated in the state of Qi, Xunzi was associated with the Confucian school, but his philosophy has a pragmatic flavour compared to Confucian optimism. Some scholars attribute it to the divisive times.[2]
Xunzi was one of the most sophisticated thinkers of his time, and was the teacher of Li Si and Han Fei Zi.
(a charming ruist anecdote)
《宥坐》
孔子觀於魯桓公之廟，有欹器焉，孔子問於守廟者曰：「此為何器？」
守廟者曰：「此蓋為宥坐之器，」
孔子曰：「吾聞宥坐之器者，虛則欹，中則正，滿則覆。」
孔子顧謂弟子曰：「注水焉。」弟子挹水而注之。
中而正，滿而覆，虛而欹，孔子喟然而歎曰：「吁！惡有滿而不覆者哉！」
子路曰：「敢問持滿有道乎？」
孔子曰：「聰明聖知，守之以愚；功被天下，守之以讓；勇力撫世，守之以怯，富有四海，守之以謙：此所謂挹而損之之道也。」
Confucius, on a tour of Lu’s temple, saw a ‘reclining vessel’, and asked the keeper: what for is this vessel?
The keeper said: it’s a vessel to be on the right hand side of the king for remonstration.
Confucius, said: I have heard about the remonstration vessel, when empty it reclines, when half-full it is upright, when full it upturns.
Then he ordered his students: pour water in it.
The students ladled water and poured herein.
Indeed, when empty it reclined, when half-full it was upright, when full it upturned.
Confucius sighing in admiration said: Ah! To be full and not to upturn!
Zi-lu asked: dare I ask about Dao of preserving fullness?
Confucius said: being wise and knowledgeable – protect it with stupidity; deserving the Underheaven – protect it with yielding; being brave to conquer the world – protect it with timidity; rich to own the four seas – protect it with respectfulness. This would be called the Dao of ‘advance and retreat’.
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You DO realize just how rude that is right? I have no idea what your point is. Am I supposed to guess ,or is the intent to just make sure I cant follow along?
I am sure Dusty meant no offense whatsoever. His question was directed at me, please dont feel bad Stosh.
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I am not quite sure. Its been a while since we researched 52, I think we let it only half finished
http://thedaobums.com/topic/19524-ttc-study-chapter-52-of-the-tao-teh-ching/?p=599087
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The puzzling feature of this chapter is a equation repeated 3 times with different variables, and always resulting in effective governing of the country:
知其雄，守其雌，為天下谿。
知其白，守其黑，為天下式。
知其榮，守其辱，為天下谷。
..and usually nonsensically translated along the lines of
know the male + hold on to the female, = be the ravine of the country.
know the pure + hold on to the soiled, = be the valley of the country.
know the white + hold on to the black, = be the model for the country.In Chinese the functions in the equation are 知其 (zhi qi) to know something and 守其 (shou qi) to guard, to hold, to observe something; while variables are the 3 pairs of metaphorical terms of discourse.
I suggest that by the time TTC was written down its meaning was forgotten and muddled (perhaps intentionally), with scribes and unqualified teachers substituting the political discourse terms of male-female, black-white, fame-shame, for what was there initially, now preserved in a fairly obscure tract of
please note the components of the equation below
《斷訟》
2 斷訟:
夫制法之意，若為藩籬溝壍以有防矣，擇禽獸之尤可數犯者，而加深厚焉。今姦宄雖眾，然其原少；君事雖繁，然其守約。知其原少姦易塞，見其守約政易治。塞其原則姦宄絕，施其術則遠近治。
The meaning of laws is to serve as a palisade and a ditch against the vassals to obstruct them; it is a hunting net for the prosecuted criminals so the laws must be made deep and thick. Nowadays, the internal and the external criminals although are numerous, but they at one time were initially little in number; the duties of the king although are numerous, but they all can be reduced to an always observed essence.
So by knowing the initial littleness, and by observing the essence – governing is easy. Plug the initial source and the criminals will discontinue; implement this technique and both far and near will be governed.
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Again, it is a compare/contrast between dualities. Suggest that we don't hold a positiion that we will constantly be tested on.
Like the hobo said, "Leave me alone. I'm happy being a hobo."
Yes thats the thing, thanks for an example for what i am struggling with here. You can recommend to someone 'work hard, play hard'. But to say 'know playing hard yet hold to working hard' is just adding unnecessary words; while 'know your white yet hold to your black' does not make sense at all. I dont understand what the words 'know' and 'hold' are for here.
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Chapter 28
When you know the male yet hold on to the female,
When you know the pure yet hold on to the soiled,
When you know the white yet hold on to the black,
Questions?
My question would be - whats the deal with this 'know this hold that' construction?
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《尹文子 - Yin Wen Zi》The School of Names 大道下: 老子曰：「民不畏死，如何以死懼之。」凡民之不畏死，由刑罰過。刑罰過，則民不賴其生；生無所賴，視君之威末如也。刑罰中，則民畏死；畏死，由生之可樂也。知生之可樂，故可以死懼之，此人君之所宜執，臣下之所宜慎。 Lao-zi said: when people are not scared of capital punishment, what use is threatening them with it? Normally, people are not scared of capital punishment because the prosecution of it is misapplied (to the innocent). The prosecution being misapplied, people do not care for their livelihood. The livelihood being not cared for, the king’s might becomes powerless. However, when the prosecution is on target, then the people become scared of capital punishment; being scared of it, they gladly care for their livelihood. Since they enjoy their livelihood, the capital punishment becomes a valid threat to them. Thusly, the people and the king become cooperative, and the ministers exercise caution.
This passage explains the first para. of chpt. 74, normally translated as:
The second para.
deals with the notion of wuwei. The Great Carpenter and the Great Executioner are actual titles for the heads of department of construction and department of prosecution within the king’s government. According to wuwei the king should never become personally involved in day-to-day governing activities, so LZ reminds the king that to become personally involved in prosecution (and execution) is as dangerous as working on a construction site with an ax in hand. Accidents will happen.
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That was intended to be provocative. A bit more than I really believe.
But generally, if I have a technique that improves well-being, why am I keeping it secret?
To make my enemies jealous? Why do I have enemies?
Because I enjoy having a secret all to myself? Why should I?
Because I don't believe others should benefit from my expertise?
you are close. 'others' will not benefit. 'one in a million of others' might.
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I see a paradox in this... if one were really a teacher of Great Dao, wouldn't they have the insight into the person coming to learn and thus know who to teach and not to teach?
Yes they will. This is how it went for a certain Uncle Qi:
路过仙留镇，闻有齐丈人者，乃成道之人；丈人亦与龛谷老人同学道于梁仙人。丈人少读诗书，秉性鲁纯，未得梁仙人实惠，因其老实志诚，梁仙人曾将丈人托于樊、徐二翁，令其指点。其后樊老人西游，丈人听徐公指教，同住汉南十余年，磨炼百般，受尽无数苦楚，终无所得，知其法缘未至，遂离汉南，赴甘肃访人。
苦尽甜来，兰州阿干镇，得遇喇嘛余丈人。余丈人系西宁沙唐川人，曾为喇嘛僧；转生七世，未迷本来，得遇异人，授以性命大道，遂了其事。此时余丈人俗妆游戏，齐丈人亦不识。余丈人猛呼齐丈人曰：「尔是甚人？所作甚事？」
齐丈人曰：「出家人乞化。」
余丈人又问曰：「止是乞化，到底还有别事否？」
齐丈人曰：「还求出家事务，非止乞化而已。」
余丈人曰：「既是如此，可脱道衣扮俗人，随吾去。」
齐丈人始知为异人。遂更换衣冠跟随，游西宁、凉州、甘州、肃州，二年而得事。于此余丈人深隐，不知所终。
(张阳志《素朴师云游记》)
there is a certain Uncle Qi there who have accomplished Dao; and that Qi and Kan-gu studied Dao under same saint Liang. Qi have not read many books, and was quite dumb by nature, so he could not make use of Liang’s teachings, but due to his honesty and sincerity, saint Liang ordered two older students Fang and Xu to give guidance to Qi. After Fan have left for the west, Qi studied under Xu, and resided with him for more than 10 years, he practiced studiously in a hundreds of ways, took any possible hardship, yet could not obtain anything. From this he understood that it is not his karma yet, so he left Hannan, and went to Gansu on a visit.
As they say ‘the bitterness ended, the sweetness have come’ for him, when in Lanzhou, city of Agan, he met a lama (a Tibetan monk) Yu. Elder Yu was from Xīníng, at one point in the past he was a lama monk, then he reincarnated after 7 generations without losing his essential personality, and have met an unusual person, from whom he obtained the great Dao of Xing-Ming, upon which he completed his work (reached sainthood). At that time elder Yu amused himself living under a mundane guise, so he was not recognized by Qi either.
Yu however, startled Qi with questioning: who are you? On what business?
Qi replied: I left home (became a monk), beg food here.
Yu asked again: and if not begging, would there be something for you to do or not?
Qi answered: what is there for a monk to do? Just to beg and that’s it.
Elder Yu said: well, if so, then you can shed your Taoist clothes, dress like a layman and come with me.
Qi, beginning to understand that this is an unusual man, changed his clothes and went traveling with Yu to Xining, Liangzhou, Ganzhou, Suzhou and finished understanding the alchemical work in 2 years. After that Yu went into hiding and it is not known where he ended up.
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I think it grows out of the Xenophobia of the ancient cultures... from that day until today, the derision of the 'foreigner' is still strong among chinese.
Yes thats true. Its a two way street though, the laowais themselves actively reject the true knowledge in favor of simulacra.
I think when applied to such things as 'practices', it becomes like a 'best kept secret' which gives one a leg up over a competing group.
True again, especially in medicine and martial arts.
When applied to more esoteric practices, I think their idea grows stronger as it is a link to the spirits and as such, they are guardians of that teaching, method, way. It is not meant for everyone and only through some proper transmission/teaching/method will it be properly done.
And your perspective?
Here things become complicated. Leaving aside the small arts and crafts like rituals and magic, where the above reasons apply; and turning to the teaching of the Great Dao we encounter a paradox.
On one hand the teachers of Great Dao in theory are supposed to selflessly save all leaving beings through their methods; on the other hand they are secretive about these methods. Why?
First of all there are the fake teachers - they are secretive in order to extract as much money as possible from students before being exposed as fakes.
Secondly, the true teachers convey the methods through use of metaphors which may seem like secrecy but is really not. Its a teaching device to induce realization.
And thirdly, there really are no secrets. The texts are extremely detailed, clear and numerous. Its just almost no one is destined to read them. Its the old rule in action: Students are therefore as many as hair on a cow's skin, but those who achieved immortaliy as rare as a unicorn's (qilin 麒麟) horn.
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1. We'd have to now define 'secret'. It seems so much has opened since ancient times... and there was a reason for it being secret. We see this in other chinese culture of Taiji and Daoism... what got kept as secret vs what was allowed to be filtered out. To much has filtered out over time...
But I would maybe say this was something originally (selectively and secretly) transmitted master-disciple and usually requires a teacher/master/spirit.
I do enjoy this theme of secrets. What do you think was the reason for secrecy? What did these secrets were?
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You really want to go there?
Too many threads here... but here is one:
http://thedaobums.com/topic/32635-which-is-which-qigong-neigong-waidan-neidan/
Thanks. In truth neidan is a misnomer, pretty much like 'daoism' is but here is what the folks mean by 'neidan' even though they cant put it into so many words, so lets do it for them:
For a practice to be neidan or internal alchemy it must include:
1. a secret method - otherwise it would not be a definable practice
2. only ingredients internal to human bodymind - otherwise it would not be internal or NEI
3. transformation and transcendence (immortality and ascendance to Heaven) - otherwise it would not be alchemy.
Now normally when ppl say that LZ is neidan they point to the authority of Heshanggong who allegedly commented LZ as such.
The "Heshang Gong Version" is named after the legendary Heshang Gong (河上公 "Riverside Sage") who supposedly lived during the reign (202–157 BC) of Emperor Wen of Han. This commentary (tr. Erkes 1950) has a preface written by Ge Xuan (葛玄, 164–244 AD), granduncle of Ge Hong, and scholarship dates this version to around the 3rd century AD.
However it immediately fails the criterion no. 2 when it recomends ' to inhale the primal qi through nose and mouth' 鼻口呼噏喘息，當綿綿微妙，若可存，復若無有. Reliance on external ingredients makes it not neidan.
Also the neidanists use the cryptic phrase 'a body outside of the body' 外其身而身存 as a proof that HSG was concerned with creation of a yang-body or a spirit-body. Except there is no such phrase. The relevant passage DDJ 7 is normally translated as
No yang-bodies there. And thats exactly how HSG paraphrases this passage: 'yeld to people, put them first , put yourself last, that's good for you' 是以聖人後其身，先人而後己也
In other words, it contains no transformation nor ascendence - therefore it is not alchemy. What it is, is a common sense longevity manual, devoid of any secret methods, on par with any modern self-help book. Dont worry, breath calmer , keep your 'tude humbler, live longer.
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I am sorry but what exactly is neidan?
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Neidan makes peeps angry.
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Guys..my friends.. if you're intent on humouring him, would you mind doing it in a new topic?
I'm happy to go off-topic every now and then, but this is beyond that... he's trying to stifle discussion of any sort...
I concur, lets petition Dawei to split this into a new topic titled 'LZ as a neidan manual' or whatev
I never tire of hearing neidanists' key argument in favor of that. It goes like this:
The neidanist: LZ is neidan!
I: Because...?
The neidanist: BECAUSE ANYTHING COULD BE A METAPHOR FOR NEIDAN, YOU FOOL!
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Tao Te Ching is strict neidan text.
ah that explaines it. we all remember neidan.
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"Is the carrot the cause of the chicken soup
Or is it the chicken
Or is it the broth
Or is it the cook?"
i would say its a mild disorder and will pass with age. Grandiose type: delusion of inflated worth, power, knowledge, identity . we all need help from time to time.
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2. back up your ideas with real explanations (rather than "I can't explain because you're too stupid/ignorant to get it")
as a total aside normally for me that would be a reasonable explanation. I am all of the above. Just saying.
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You just reflected your own state of ignorance as the people who being manipulated, entanglement actual brings true answer. Think about it well.
Saoshan please do not take it personally but what you say does not make any sense. Sorry again.
[TTC Study] Chapter 28 of the Tao Teh Ching
in Daodejing
Posted
I was meaning to read her research for some time, thanks for that
I did not know that. i will take that into account when finding out where these ravines and creeks came from
defo, totally