Taoist Texts

...all in due course..

《道德經》: 39

昔之得一者：天得一以清；地得一以寧；神得一以靈；谷得一以盈；萬物得一以生；侯王得一以為天下貞。

From containing the One Heaven gets its purity; Earth – its stability; spirits – their numinosity; streams – their fullness; all beings – their lives, the princes and kings – are valued 貴in the Under Heaven.

其致之，but when (the One) leaves those

天無以清，將恐裂；地無以寧，將恐發；神無以靈，將恐歇；谷無以盈，將恐竭；萬物無以生，將恐滅；侯王無以貴高將恐蹶。

The Heaven would not be pure and would rend; the Earth would not be stable and would split; the spirits will not be numinous and would expire; the streams will not be full and would dry out; all beings would not live and would die out; the princes and kings would not be noble and high and would fall.

故貴以賤為本，高以下為基。

But it is known that the valuable is based on the cheap, the high stands on the low.

是以侯王自稱孤、寡、不穀。此非以賤為本耶？非乎？

Therefore (to attract the One) the princes and kings belittle themselves by such self-appellations as ‘I the lonely’, ‘I the orphan’, ‘I the grain-less’. Is this not ‘the cheap as the foundation?

故致數譽無譽。不欲琭琭如玉，珞珞如石。

Therefore the highest fame is no fame. Do not be bright like jade, be like un-hewn stone. (to attract the One).

道德經39

《道德經》: 昔之得一者：天得一以清；地得一以寧；神得一以靈；谷得一以盈；萬物得一以生；侯王得一以為天下貞。其致之，天無以清，將恐裂；地無以寧，將恐發；神無以靈，將恐歇；谷無以盈，將恐竭；萬物無以生，將恐滅；侯王無以貴高將恐蹶。故貴以賤為本，高以下為基。是以侯王自稱孤、寡、不穀。此非以賤為本耶？非乎？故致數譽無譽。不欲琭琭如玉，珞珞如石。

《老子河上公章句·法本》: 昔之得一者：天得一以清，地得一以寧，神得一以靈，谷得一以盈，萬物得一以生，侯王得一以為天下貞。其致之。天無以清將恐裂，地無以寧將恐發，神無以靈將恐歇，谷無以盈將恐竭，萬物無以生將恐滅，侯王無以貴高將恐蹶。故貴以賤為本，高以下為基是以侯王自謂孤、寡、不轂。此非以賤為本邪？非乎！故致數輿無輿，不欲琭琭如玉，珞珞如石。

《馬王堆·老子甲德經》: 昔之得一者：天得一以清；地得□以寧；神得一以霝；浴得一以盈；侯□□□而以為正。其致之也，胃天毌已清將恐□，胃地毌□□將恐□，胃神毌已霝將恐歇，胃浴毌已盈將恐渴，胃侯王毌已貴□□□□□。故必貴而以賤為本，必高矣而以下為基。夫是以侯王自胃□孤寡不穀，此其賤□□與？非□？故致數與無與。是故不欲□□若玉，硌硌□□。

《馬王堆·老子乙德經》: 昔得一者：天得一以清；地得一以寧；神得一以霝；浴得一盈；侯王得一以為天下正。其至也，胃天毌已，清將恐蓮；地毌已寧，將恐發；神毌□□□恐歇；谷毌已□，將渴侯王毌已貴以高將恐蹶。故必貴以賤為本，必高矣而以下為基。夫是以侯王自胃孤、寡、不穀。此其賤之本與？非也。故至數輿無輿。是故不欲祿﹦若玉硌﹦若石。

As far as "materialism".. there are a few discussions on TTB about this, I'm fairly sure: many agree that many ideas expressed in Daoist, Buddhist, and Hindu philosophy can be paralleled with modern science very easily.

That is very likely given that modern science is a religion. But that's beside the point. The point is LZ's main subject - the Dao is easily understandable from the mystical POV. What is it from the materialist POV?

And I don't know what you mean about evolution... how is evolution not purely material?

i recommend this article, very witty.

 

I wanted to see how serious proponents of evolutionary biology would respond to awkward questions.

It was like giving a bobcat a prostate exam. I got everything but answers. They told me I was a crank, implied over and over that I was a Creationist, said that I was an enemy of science (someone who asks for evidence is an enemy of science). They said that I was trying to pull down modern biology (if you ask questions about an aspect of biology, you want to pull down biology). They told me I didn’t know anything (that’s why I was asking questions), and that I was a mere journalist (the validity of a question depends on its source rather than its content).

But they didn’t answer the questions. They ducked and dodged and evaded.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2005/03/fred-reed/skeptic-of-darwinism/

Can you point me towards rectifying or aligning this passage with any passage of the TTC?

Sure,

here is your god

道沖而用之或不盈。淵兮似萬物之宗。挫其銳，解其紛，和其光，同其塵。湛兮似或存。吾不知誰之子，象帝之先 4

here is your ghosts and spirits

昔之得一者：天得一以清；地得一以寧；神得一以靈；谷得一以盈；萬物得一以生；侯王得一以為天下貞。其致之，天無以清，將恐裂；地無以寧，將恐發；神無以靈，將恐歇；谷無以盈，將恐竭；萬物無以生，將恐滅；侯王無以貴高將恐蹶。故貴以賤為本，高以下為基。是以侯王自稱孤、寡、不穀。此非以賤為本耶？非乎？故致數譽無譽。不欲琭琭如玉，珞珞如石。 39

治大國若烹小鮮。以道蒞天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神，其神不傷人；非其神不傷人，聖人亦不傷人。夫兩不相傷，故德交歸焉。60

and most importantly Dao. Its ironic that materialists / atheists embrace Dao so eagerly, becouse it is the most prominently anti-materialist concept one can find. Kinda like evolution but even more so.

We know that a number of Greek and Roman philosophers were either atheist or agnostic.

This is interesting, not to argue but who?

It depends on what you believe LZ is: is it a unique stand-alone book, or part and parcel of the contemporary cultural multiverse. If its the former then nothing is provable and LZ could be about anything that pleases the gentle reader; if its the latter then LZ is a pragmatic theist as was everybody till maybe 100 years ago.

 

 

You know, the meaning of the term 神明(shen ming) had been bothering me for sometime. Finally, I have discovered a best translation which is "the gods/deities."

 

 

Yes naturally they are gods but of a special kind. The author is creating an ideological foundation for teh centralised empire that was formed under Han again after the initial but failed try of Qin.

So these bright gods are the imperial depersonalised and centralised gods as opposed to local tangible gods of grain altars, rivers and mountains of folk religion.

I am always bemused by suchlike vague inquiries 'I am looking for a teacher', ' I am looking for a true practitioner'. A teacher of what? A true practitioner of what exactly?

2 精誠 Jingcheng The sincerity of the essence

精誠: 2

老子曰：天設日月，列星辰，張四時，調陰陽。日以暴之，夜以息之，風以乾之，雨露以濡之。其生物也，莫見其所養而萬物長；其殺物也，莫見其所喪而萬物亡。此謂神明。是故聖人象之，其起福也，不見其所以而福起；其除禍也，不見其所由而禍除。稽之不得，察之不虛，日計不足，歲計有餘，寂然無聲，一言而大動天下，是以天心動化者也。故精誠內形，氣動於天，景星見，黃龍下，鳳皇至，醴泉出，嘉穀生，河不滿溢，海不波涌；逆天暴物，即日月薄蝕，五星失行，四時相乘，晝明宵光，山崩川涸，冬雷夏霜。天之與人，有以相通，故國之沮亡也，天文變，世或亂，虹蜺見，萬物有以相連，精氣有以相薄，故神明之事，不可以智巧為也，不可以強力致也。故大人與天地合德，與日月合明，與鬼神合靈，與四時合信，懷天心，抱地氣，執沖含和，不下堂而行四海，變易習俗，民化遷善，若生諸己，能以神化者也。

Lao-zi said: the Heaven sets up sun and moon, puts in order the constellations, extends the 4 seasons, regulates the yin-yang. The day is for exposure, the night is for rest, wind is for dryness, rain is for wetness.

Thus things are born, nobody sees how they are being nourished yet they grow’; thus things are killed, nobody sees how they are being ruined yet they perish. All of it is done by the bright spirits.

That is imitated by the sages, who raise blessings, nobody sees how yet blessings arise; who remove calamities, nobody sees how yet calamities are removed.

Not based on observation of the omens or signs, nor by calendrical calculation, but rather by preserving silence – one word (of the sages at the right moment) greatly moves the Under Heaven, because it comes out of Heavenly heart.

Because the sages have fine sincerity inside, their qi moves in sync with Heaven, auspicious stars are seen, yellow dragons descend, phoenixes arrive, sweet springs well up, bountiful crops grow, rivers do not overflow, sea-storms do not surge. If not so, then Heaven will harm things, the sun and moon will eclipse, 5 stars will lose way, four seasons will overlap, the daylight will shine at night, mountains will fall and rivers will dry, there will be thunder in winter and frost in summer.

For Heaven and people are in communication: (for, example) when an established kingdom is about to fall, there are Heavenly omens, the world comes to disorder, rainbows are seen, all things are in strife, the fine qi depletes – all of these are doings of bright spirits. These changes can not be caused by human cunning nor force.

Therefore (the only optimal way) is for the great men to join the De of Heaven and Earth, to join brightness of sun and moon, to join the numinosity of ghosts and spirits, to join the regularity of 4 seasons, to have the Heavenly heart in their bosoms, to embrace the earthly qi, to hold to the middle and to contain harmony, not exiting the palace travel between the 4 seas, to change the customs, to convert people onto the good ways, if so, when the allotted life span is over – they can become spirits themselves.

And that's as close to reincarnation that Chuang Tzu ever got. But this really is not reincarnation, it is simply recycling.

could be. recycling of what?

edit: by the way, you know.. I'm not set on it being 'merging', but am trying to defend the position as much as I can. I am pretty set on it not being about reincarnation, but if there's strong evidence to the contrary, I'll witness it...

ZZ be my witness

子犁往問之曰：「叱！避！無怛化！」倚其戶與之語曰：「偉哉造物！又將奚以汝為？將奚以汝適？以汝為鼠肝乎？以汝為蟲臂乎？」子來曰：「父母於子，東西南北，唯命之從。陰陽於人，不翅於父母，彼近吾死而我不聽，我則悍矣，彼何罪焉！夫大塊載我以形，勞我以生，佚我以老，息我以死。故善吾生者，乃所以善吾死也。今之大冶鑄金，金踊躍曰『我且必為鏌鋣』，大冶必以為不祥之金。今一犯人之形，而曰『人耳人耳』

Then, leaning against the door, he said (to the dying man), 'Great indeed is the Creator! What will He now make you to become? Where will He take you to? Will He make you the liver of a rat, or the arm of an insect? Zi-lai replied, 'Wherever a parent tells a son to go, east, west, south, or north, he simply follows the command. The Yin and Yang are more to a man than his parents are. If they are hastening my death, and I do not quietly submit to them, I shall be obstinate and rebellious. There is the great Mass (of nature);-- I find the support of my body in it; my life is spent in toil on it; my old age seeks ease on it; at death I find rest on it: what has made my life a good will make my death also a good. Here now is a great founder, casting his metal. If the metal were to leap up (in the pot), and say, "I must be made into a (sword like the) Mo-ye," the great founder would be sure to regard it as uncanny. So, again, when a form is being fashioned in the mould of the womb, if it were to say, "I must become a man; I must become a man,"

There must be a difference between Zhuang Zhou and a butterfly...

 

This is called the merging of things.

 

 

 

What does it mean to you?

There is a contradiction there. Are things different or are they mixed/merged?

merge (mûrj)

Zhuang Zi was merged with the butterfly; and the butterfly was merged with ZZ. ZZ is the butterfly and the butterfly is ZZ. Hence, there is no separation between human and other things because they were all merged together.

i just looked around. no we are not.

《道原》

老子曰：夫事生者應變而動，變生於時，無常之行。故「道可道，非常道也，名可名，非常名也。」書者言之所生也，言出於智，智者不知，非常道也；名可名，非藏書者也。「多聞數窮，不如守中」，「絕學無憂」，「絕聖棄智，民利百倍」。人生而靜，天之性也；感物而動，性之害也；物至而應，智之動也；智與物接，而好憎生焉；好憎成形，而智怵於外，不能反己，而天理滅矣。

是故聖人不以人易天，外與物化而內不夫情，故通於道者，反於清靜，空於物者，終於無為。以恬養智，以漠合神，即乎無垠，循天者與道遊也，隨人者與俗交也；故聖人不以事滑天，不以欲亂情，不謀而當，不言而信，不慮而得，不為而成。是以處上而民不重，居前而人不害，天下歸之，姦邪畏之，以其無爭於萬物也，故莫敢與之爭。

The origin of Dao

Lao-zi said: those who serve the living react to changes and act, since life changes with seasons – the conduct is not constant. Therefore [The Dao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Dao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.]

The scribe’s are those who produce words, once the words become accepted wisdom, the wise ones stop knowing, which is not the constant Dao. The name that can be named is not in the archives. [much hearing – much poorness, better to guard center], [stop learning – no sadness], [stop sage-hood, reject wisdom - people benefit hundredfold].

People born are quiet with Heavenly nature, they react to things and move, the nature is harmed; things come, they react, the wisdom becomes unstable; the wisdom joins with things - love and hatred appear; love and hatred encrust, the wisdom is enticed outside, can not go back and the Heavenly principle is extinguished.

That is why the sages do not join people betraying Heaven; outside they change with things with no mature passions inside; that is why they reach Dao, return to calmness, empty of things and never acting. They nourish wisdom in quiescence, join spirits in equanimity, achieve the limitless, follow Heaven and travel Dao; but following people means joining the mundane.

That is why the sages in services do not cheat Heaven, and do not disturb passions with desires, (due to that) they do not scheme but get, do no speak but are trusted, do not think but obtain, do not act but complete. That is why they get on top but populace is not oppressed, they get in front but people are not harmed, the Under Heaven gathers round them, the vice is scared away, they do not straggle with all things so none dares to straggle with them.

 

This is called the merging of things.

 

 

What does it mean to you?

depends on what you mean by merging of things.

I need to hear a good, old-fashioned bio-physical explanation of what it is and what I must do to express it. Something like, "flex your this to make that happen."

That is very aptly put.

Therefore, I should be able to, at the very least, conceive of how their techniques are performed.

Yes, you should be able to. If those who make their living from it being secret tell you. But they will lose their livelihood if they do. So they wont.

Han Feizi also doesn't necessarily agree with you. (The following translation is mostly WK Liao's, but the blue part is improved by me, I think): O

yeah....i know... IMHO the commenters can not be trusted, like i said there was a paradigm shift cutting off the meaning. Just look at that paragraph in HFZ - there is a distinct feeling that the author is creating

to suit his ends.

Yes. Good.

 

 

 

Proving? From the same search page, just below:

 

蒼蒼之天，莫知其極

The blue sky, none knows its extent / limit

my point was that limit here means some kind of a spatial border, which your quote bears out. The Heaven is limitless above, the mother of all empires is limitless below, a match that will last long.

Proceeding to explore the unfamiliar nomenclature in the middle of the chain, we will look at the logic of 蚤服=>重積德. Why an early (easy, peaceful) victory should lead to accretion of De? Simply because war is a bad thing and ending it early saves lives, consequently increasing one’s moral capital

兵者，凶器也。爭者，逆德也

http://ctext.org/school-of-the-military?searchu=%E5%BE%B7&page=4#n43521

‘fighting is contrary to De’

Further, lets look at the quote

神莫知其極。昭知天下，通於四極。

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E8%8E%AB%E7%9F%A5%E5%85%B6%E6%A5%B5#n48525

proving that ‘the limit’ in question means the borders of the state, therefore the objective of a ruler desiring to establish a longevous dynasty is to expand his empire limitlessly to the four seas, ‘from sea to shining sea’.

The next moot expression is ‘the mother of the state’ 有國之母 not attested elsewhere, however, there is a formula

陛下父事天，母事地，

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%A4%A9%E6%AF%8D&page=2#n66989

‘the emperor makes Heaven into his father, and the Earth his mother’, which means that the mother of the state is the whole wide Earth, upon the entirety of which the emperor has to establish his domain

The last 3 links of the logical chain summarize the desired results:

長久=>深根固柢=>長生久視

Longevous and lasting 長久 is actually a contraction of a popular formula Heaven is longevous, Earth is lasting 天長地久 meaning that the dynasty will live as long as these two, if Heaven is properly served and the entire Earth conquered. In that case the state will be strong as in

禮者，所以固國家，定社稷，使君無失其民者也

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%9B%BA%E5%9B%BD#n53533

the sacrifices make the state strong, the altars of grain and Earth stable, so the ruler would not lose his people.

Lastly, the expression 長生久視 ‘long life and lasting vision’ was never intended for an individual but meant rather the long life of the dynasty and its state. ‘The lasting vision’ here has long baffled sinologists unable to explain what does it mean exactly. Turns out it meant the combined gaze of the emperor and the Heaven on their subjects as above: 明視 spiritual gaze.

I don't disagree...but my translation takes one character in particular from the Guodian that I believe is different:

 

服 replaced with 穫 / 获

 

Though it actually looks like the character in the GD has a left-hand 彳 component

thats actually pretty good because an early harvest of own crops would mean the ability to wage wars on the neighnours as was the wont of archaic agricultural societies.

This chapter is a logical chain of reasoning, albeit with unobvious logical connection between the links

治人事天莫若嗇。In governing people and serving heavens there is nothing like good harvesting

夫唯嗇，是謂早服；good harvesting means early victory 蚤服

早服謂之重積德；early victory means accumulation of De

重積德則無不克；accumulated De means invincibility

無不克則莫知其極；invincibility means no limit

莫知其極，可以有國；no limit means getting the country

有國之母，可以長久；getting the country’ mother means longevity

是謂深根固柢，longevity means deep roots strong base

長生久視之道。 deep roots strong base means Dao of long life eternal vision

To simplify it further

治人事天=>嗇/穑=>蚤服=>重積德=>無不克=>莫知其極=>有國=>有國之母=>長久=>深根固柢=>長生久視

General connection of ‘managing people, serving Heaven’ with invincibility, De and ‘having the state’ is broadly discussed in

《大戴禮記 - Da Dai Li Ji》

[Han (206 BC - 220)]

少閒:

乃有商履代興。商履循禮法，以觀天子，天子不說，則嫌於死。成湯卒受天命，不忍天下粒食之民刈戮，不得以疾死，故乃放移夏桀，散亡其佐。乃遷姒姓于杞。發厥明德，順民天心嗇地，作物配天，制典慈民。咸合諸侯，作八政，命於總章。服禹功以脩舜緒，為副于天。粒食之民昭然明視，民明教，通于四海，海之外肅慎、北發、渠搜、氐、羌來服

When planning the sacrifices – observe Heaven, Heaven does not speak - catastrophe is suspected. Tang, the first ruler of the Shang dynasty received Heavenly mandate, would not tolerate the grain-eaters being exterminated…. displaced Jie of Xia* …deployed his spiritual De, settled the obedient people in harvest lands 穡地 according to Heaven’s heart, matched crops 作物 with Heaven’s will, … the grain-eaters (peasants) saw his spiritual eye 明視 on them …. to the four seas and beyond, all the barbarians submitted.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jie_of_Xia

Jie with a halberd, representing oppression, and sitting on two ladies

Watson's done a much better job of keeping it readable, if not necessarily always 100% accurate.

He he;) what does parable of the fishes say in his translation?

well, since the inquiring minds want to know...

道德經12

《道德經》: 五色令人目盲；五音令人耳聾；五味令人口爽；馳騁田獵，令人心發狂；難得之貨，令人行妨。是以聖人為腹不為目，故去彼取此。

《老子河上公章句·檢欲》: 五色令人目盲；五音令人耳聾；五味令人口爽；馳騁畋獵，令人心發狂，難得之貨，令人行妨。是以聖人為腹，不為目，故去彼取此。

《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 五色使人目明；馳騁田臘，使人□□□；難得之貨，使人之行方；五味使人之口爽；五音使人之耳聾。是以聲人之治也，為腹不□□，故去罷耳此。

《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 色使人目盲；馳騁田臘，使人心發狂；難得之貨，○使人之行仿；五味使人之口爽；五音使人之耳□。是以聖人之治也，為腹而不為目，故去彼而取此。

This is a fairly straightforward passage but again with a specific meaning, forgotten by the time it was written down.

Luckily this meaning was preserved in just one locus

陛下以使者為腹心，而使者以從事為耳目

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E7%82%BA%E8%85%B9&page=2#n74907

 

the emperor makes his ambassadors into his belly and heart, and the ambassadors use their clerks as eyes and ears.

Whatever that means, it has something to do with the chain of command, whereas the decision makers and the informants are on separate rungs thereof.

So the meaning of the chapter is that the sages should be kept by the emperor or self-limit themselves to staying within the seat of the government, getting info from officials on the perimeter. Otherwise the sages will be as dazzled by the info as the sensory organs of the people in the preamble sentence, making the sages unable to govern effectively.

In other words sages should 去彼 stay away from what is far 取此 and keep to themselves. Qù bǐ qǔ cǐ appears to be a proverb describing a self evidently optimal behavior in those times.

they seem to be 2 different individuals in the same generation, with the same surname

（1）李涵虚——周道山、吴天秩、李道山、李道育、银道源等；

（2）吴天秩——柯葆真、汪东亭、柯载书、李云岚、周俊夫等；银道源－－张义尚（1910－2000）

（3）柯葆真——柯兆平（子）、孙吉甫；汪东亭——魏尧（则之）、汪臻卿（子）、徐颂尧（海印子）、蔡潜谷等；

（4）魏尧——陈孟；徐颂尧——李仲强、陈宗涛、徐竹茂、施菊英、李廷光、胡澄阳等；蔡潜谷——陈毓照（天乐）、朱彩娟（天真）等；附录：徐颂尧－－李仲强－－吴君确－－马炳文（合阳）、马寿俊（谷阳）〔台湾一派〕

http://hi.baidu.com/gaifo110/item/49086b8ce1444550840fab19

yes, but only partially. You see, TTC is a practical manual and as such should contain instructions in a basic three part format

1. Premise/Problem 2 Instruction 3 Results. What you offer is a description, while i believe that there is an instruction in there.