Taoist Texts

I'm interested to learn more, particularly of any legends surroundings his later life seclusion....Does anyone know of any good readings on this Zhang Liang? 

 

 Little is known about Zhang Liang's later life, hence his final resting place has been a mystery throughout history.

With all due respect Taoist Texts, and believe me, in your areas of expertise I have a lot of respect for you,

The feeling is mutual

except for the Stoics, Greek Philosophy gave a lot of impetus to esoteric arts of all kinds, especially Platonism and Aristotelianism, though as I think about it, the Stoics were responsible for a lot of development in Astrology, the Philosopher-magician was alive and well. 

I was not aware about such POV, thanks

The case of Epicureans is more complex, I cannot speculate about them, but the influence of Plato and Aristotle and their followers an Western esoteric practices lasts from the Hellenistic period through the late Nineteenth Century. 

I am sure it does but does it last as a mainstream continuity, a deviation, or a lip service? Also, Plato and Aristotle at their core have opposing worldviews, as i vaguely remember.

 

I have posted a great deal on the roots of the Occult Philosophy of the Renaissance Platonist and Magician Cornelius Agrippa in Agrippa subsection of the Esoteric section of TDB.

 

I knew very little of him and will make sure to read your material. Also found his quote which is amusing enough to copy here:

 

 

But of magic I wrote whilst I was very young three large books, which I called Of Occult Philosophy, in which what was then through the curiosity of my youth erroneous, I now being more advised, am willing to have retracted, by this recantation; I formerly spent much time and costs in these vanities.

 

At last I grew so wise as to be able to dissuade others from this destruction. For whosoever do not in the truth, nor in the power of God, but in the deceits of devils, according to the operation of wicked spirits presume to divine and prophesy, and practising through magical vanities, exorcisms, incantions and other demoniacal works and deceits of idolatry, boasting of delusions, and phantasms, presently ceasing, brag that they can do miracles, I say all these shall with Jannes, and Jambres, and Simon Magus, be destinated to the torments of eternal fire.

 

Returning to the topic at hand which is longevity i do not seem to remember that any of the classic magicians was involved with extending the human longevity beyond ordinary. There is a mention that Apollonius of Tyana underwent heavenly assumption.^[13]; and Empedocles  rejuvenating the old; but thats about it. It seems that longevity was not of interest in classical times.

The Epicureans, Stoics, and Daoists have a lot in common: the joy of a simple life, withdrawn from wordly affairs and focused on natural harmony and self awareness. However, the Daoists often speak about longevity--something more or less absent from the other two schools of thought.

Whatever they had in common there is one big difference. The greeks were philosophers while the Daoists were magicians, meaning that the former had to accept their lot while daoists had magical tools at their disposal to change their lot

 

 

And then I re-read Seneca's De Brevitate Vitae, which discusses the shortness of life, as the title suggests, and goes on to conclude that any life is long enough if used properly.

Yeah its what the french call 'Faire bonne mine à mauvais jeu'

I'm still kicking around this idea, so I'm just looking for other opinions: should we be reading the Daoist focus on longevity at least in part metaphorically? Could they on some level also be talking about making the most of life, rather than just supernatural longevity or immortality?

No and no

 she loses jing. And so she ages more quickly now because of me.

 

I feel very bad now. 

Any advice?

Relax you have not done anything, its all in your head. You dont have that kind of power. This is just natural aging, nothing more.

There was one time where I was standing and connecting the energy of my body out through my right arm and I somehow threaded a needle and connected in a really specific way. The result was that my arm felt like it turned to a thick liquid and was stretching and melting longer than the distance to the ground. It felt really heavy but really light to move.

 

I've been trying to get this again for years with no luck. It feels like the right kind of state for internal martial arts. Heavy but light to move (fast and powerful). 

 

Can anyone here do this,

yes. when i ramp up the number of forms I do in a day to 7-8, there is a feeling of liquid mercury traveling along the extremities with a strike

and how do you go about turning it on?

 

What I was thinking about was raising up my spine, expanding the spinal energy to the collarbone, expanding from the center of the collarbone and center of the spine around into my shoulders, and just feeling a connection. I wasn't trying to move my shoulder back into alignment but I noted that it did that itself, not that I realised it was happening at the time.

 

I want to try and get this state in my whole body so I'm willing to try any suggestions.

 

the exact method is secret but its main components are stretches, standing and powering down the mind.

 But it depends on one's school or individual practice.

hehe;) genau.

 

 

Stretches are useful, but to say that strength in IMA is based on it is an exaggeration

劲由于筋

 

Power (chin 勁) comes from the tendons

My only concern is the prerequisites.

 

What do people suggest I do as prerequisites to circle walking? I'm usually there an hour before to do Zhan Zhuang and San Ti. What else should I work on? Should I do straight line walking an hour before?

Its a very good question.

 

The first prereq would be to figure out what is the point of walking? Or ZZ and ST?

 

Second would be to know that internal MA are direct opposite of the external.

 

And third would be to do stretches (very carefully). Strength in IMA is based on stretching.

A few questions I've been wondering about for a while now,

 

1) How do I go about training to sleep in a cross-legged position, half-lotus or full lotus position?

http://www.theminimalists.com/drew/

 judging by your attitude I'd say the same would apply to you.

may be;). You see i was under the impression that the OP refers to starting after 50. I pointed out that majority of people would not have the energy for that.

 

Then the gentlemen chimed in with their stories of success about how they started well before 50. Its great but not relevant to OP.

I trust that you are speaking for yourself and not others.

hehe;) good for you i guess;)

Really  surprised me that no  one was interested in this topic.  Perhaps no one is over 50 here : .... During youth,  mind would rather contemplate  intoxicants  and sex :-)  

yes but after 50 the body and mind are probably  enfeebled past the point of no return.

So id like to discuss the Taoist path to spiritual immortality vs reincarnating and aquiring wisdom and experience from many lifetimes.

 

I think that death is part of life and reincarnation brings wisdom and growth and is a path to spiritual evolution.

 

 

“Nakhasikha Sutta”

“Bhikkhus, those who depart from the human realm, those will be reborn as humans or devas can be compared to the few grains of sand that I pickup on my fingernail. Those who are reborn in the lower four realms are exceedingly many, compared to the sand on this great Earth”.

 

{lowest four realms: niraya (hell), asura, animal, and peta realms. Of those four, only the animal realm is visible to us. They are collectively called the apayas.}

Problem:

 

Someone has extreme, excruciating period pains. They vary in degree but more often than not, the pain/discomfort so intense that it causes vomiting & shaking, and the sufferer is bed-ridden for at least some of the day (and night). 

 

spleen and liver are the organs that transform food into blood, as such, they are subject to pressure on both ends, the digestive system and the blood circulation system. When these two organs are out of sync  at the time of the menses, the blood backs up in them causing pains. Vomiting is the symptom of internal poisoning by the excess blood. The traditional remedy for that were leeches and bloodletting, nowadays women in Brazil donate blood for the same purpose. If this solution is unpractical, then i would suggest relieving the stress on these two organs from the other end, by fasting 3-4 days before the period, perhaps with laxatives.

which,  when applied the magic of excel reveal a mysterious numerology of 

 

First Character Count of First 任 5 淳 3 無 3 玄 3 虛 3 儉 2 守 2 歸 2 為 2 益 2 知 2 顯 2 養 2

 

Second Character Count of Second 德 12 用 6 道 4 為 3 元 2 化 2 己 2 欲 2 武 2 風 2

While not exactly a keyword, but somebody who was known for his insubordination and his levitation skills  took the trouble of titling the chapters.

 

道经 
　　1. 体道 
　　2. 养身 
　　3. 安民 
　　4. 无源 
　　5. 虚用 
　　6. 成象 
　　7. 韬光 
　　8. 易性 
　　9. 运夷 
　　10. 能为 
　　11. 无用 
　　12. 检欲 
　　13. 厌耻 
　　14. 赞玄 
　　15. 显德 
　　16. 归根 
　　17. 淳风 
　　18. 俗薄 
　　19. 还淳 
　　20. 异俗 
　　21. 虚心 
　　22. 益谦 
　　23. 虚无 
　　24. 苦恩 
　　25. 象元 
　　26. 重德 
　　27. 巧用 
　　28. 反朴 
　　29. 无为 
　　30. 俭武 
　　31. 偃武 
　　32. 圣德 
　　33. 辩德 
　　34. 任成 
　　35. 仁德 
　　36. 微明 
　　37. 为政 

　德经 
　　38. 论德 
　　39. 法本 
　　40. 去用 
　　41. 同异 
　　42. 道化 
　　43. 徧用 
　　44. 立戒 
　　45. 洪德 
　　46. 俭欲 
　　47. 鉴远 
　　48. 忘知 
　　49. 任德 
　　50. 贵生 
　　51. 养德 
　　52. 归元 
　　53. 益证 
　　54. 修观 
　　55. 玄符 
　　56. 玄德 
　　57. 淳风 
　　58. 顺化 
　　59. 守道 
　　60. 居位 
　　61. 谦德 
　　62. 为道 
　　63. 恩始 
　　64. 守微 
　　65. 淳德 
　　66. 后己 
　　67. 三宝 
　　68. 配天 
　　69. 玄用 
　　70. 知难 
　　71. 知病 
　　72. 爱己 
　　73. 任为 
　　74. 制惑 
　　75. 贪损 
　　76. 戒强 
　　77. 天道 
　　78. 任信 
　　79. 任契 
　　80. 独立 
　　81. 显质 

. We asked our friend if he thought the brother could be lying about Max to discredit him, but our friend said the brother was telling the story like it was a funny and interesting thing, not a bad thing. He was telling it because he thought it was something the students would enjoy.

 

A fairly well known teacher once boasted that he brings human body parts home from a morgue  to study TCM. He boasted about it publicly on an open internet forum.

 

Though they’ve also said quite often that masters don’t have to love within the common constraints of morality, because they are so in tune with the will of God. The weird thing was, our friend says that he was the only want to seem disturbed by this story at all. Maybe this is some kind of more common practice than I realize?

His students ooh-ed and aah-ed in response, and asked thoughtful questions, without anyone vomiting in their mouths a little.

 

The thing is that "western taoism" (which of course is no taoism at all) sells powers. Only evil people sell powers or buy powers. On the upside there are no powers. All they trade in is just  one big evil fantasy.

@Taoist Texts: What was the sect of swordsmen-alchemists you mentioned called? I would like to know a little more about them.

Here you go:

 

 

 

 

The other commentary attached to the  text—attributed  to  Luo  Gongyuan 羅公遠 (ca. 655‑758)—indicates that the nature of the weapon, and the powers it possesses and bestows upon one who wields it, varies  greatly according to the rank and caliber of the Immortal in question:

 

1) Heavenly  Stalwarts  (tianxia 天俠) are originally Heav‑ enly Immortals  who have  been bestowed a sword  by the  Su‑ preme Thearch (Shangdi 上帝).

 

2) Immortal Knights  (xianxia 仙俠) [are those who] after  cultivating the practices for the heavenly ascension of the Per‑ fected, further refine the qi to forge a sword. 

 

3) Holy  Stalwarts  (lingxia 靈俠) [are those who after] al‑  ready having become Earthly Immortals, dwell in a mountain  as its protector. Once they have refined their sword and dagger  to completion, they become able to instantly dispatch the fly‑  ing sword to any location within 10,000 li, as soon as they hear  of any injustice.

 

4) Wind  Stalwarts  (fengxia 風俠) are also Earthly Immor‑ tals. In refining the  sword  and dagger, they practice  only in‑ termittently and do not reach the ultimate efficacy. When they hear  of injustice, they can arrive instantly with body and  sword wherever  wind  can penetrate (they cannot penetrate  solid surfaces).

 

5) Water Stalwarts (shuixia 水俠) are originally Water Im‑ mortals (shuixian 水仙).49 When the refining  [of the  sword]  is completed, they are called Water Stalwarts. They cannot fly if  there is no water.

 

6) Fire  Stalwarts (huoxia  火俠). When they practice  this, they naturally are set on fire.  This  is  also known as  The  Samadhi of Fiery Radiance. Once they have completed the re‑  fining of the sword and dagger, and when the body is about to  fly, they require a ball of Transformation Fire, on which to ride upon to come and go. Thus they are called Fire Stalwarts.

 

7) Air Stalwarts  (qixia  氣俠) [are those  who  have]  only  learned to stabilize the  breath. Thereby  with the essence and  efflorescence they refine the  sword. When the  sword is  com‑ plete it is like air. [because they] wield [this] while coming and  going, they are called Air Stalwarts.

 

8) Ghost Stalwarts (guixia 鬼俠). People cannot see their  form. They had  originally cultivated [the  way of] the  Spirit Immortal (shenxian 神仙). They have a water and ink form, and  a water and ink sword. In exiting, entering, coming and going,  they are no different from air.

 

9) Sword‑Encountering  Stalwarts  (yujianxia  遇劍俠) are  those who, having come upon a precious sword, can transform and appear at will in the East and West.50

 

 

 

 

“Do Immortals Kill?: The Controversy Surrounding Lü Dongbin.” Journal of Daoist Studies, vol. 1 (2008), pp. 28-66. 

• STEPHEN ESKILDSEN, PROF. DR.

 

•  

I somehow doubt with a religious tradition spanning anywhere from 2000-5000 years or more (depending on how you view the origins of Daoism) with such varied currents that the answer can be this simple. One glaring example otherwise would be the Yellow Turban movement which was related to the Tianshi Dao and based around the Taiping jing that certainly engaged in warfare, and I believe Zhang Lu, supposed grandson of Zhang Daoling, killed a rival in order to establish his theocratic Daoist state in Sichuan during the Three Kingdoms period.

That is certainly a valid argument, which boils down what is real daoism and what is its folk ofshoot.

 

1600 years after the 'daoist' Taiping above, there was another Taiping, this time around a Christian one.

 

After reading a pamphlet he received a year before from a Protestant Christian missionary, Hong claimed that his illness was a vision to the effect that he was the younger brother of Jesus, who was sent to rid China of the "devils", including the corrupt Qing government and Confucian teachings. He felt that it was his duty to spread his interpretation of Christianity and overthrow the Qing dynasty. One of Hong's associates, Yang Xiuqing, who was formerly a firewood merchant from Guangxi, claimed to be able to act as the voice of God.^[8] Issachar Jacox Roberts, an American Baptist missionary, became a teacher and adviser to Hong.^[9]

In 1843, Hong and his associates founded the God Worshipping Society, a heterodox Christian sect, and used it to spread their ideas and attract followers. The sect increased its power initially by suppressing groups of bandits and pirates in southern China in the late 1840s. However, over time, persecution by Qing authorities caused the movement to evolve into a guerrilla rebellion and subsequently a widespread civil war.

 

IMHO, they both were not really Christian or Taoists, but its a matter of personal preference.

 

While I am sure that Daoism, like all sophisticated religious and philosophical traditions, prefers and emphasizes peace and non-violence, I somehow doubt that they had absolutely no connection with any martial, warrior, or heroic traditions and viewed all of them with aversion and disgust always.

 

As far as I know, the DDJ is also against weapons and war, but it also states that when their use is unavoidable that the best way is use them with detachment (rather than hatred or anger) and to not celebrate victory.

Right. There are a lot of martial flavor on the surface of and around Taoism: martial arts, wrathful gods, martial magic, there was even a sect of swordsmen-alchemists at one point. But these are peripherals.

 

过府穿州，路见不平报人雠。腾身屋上走，暗里取人首，只说是豪气贯斗牛，谁知道行同盗寇。真修行，惟知自补咎。劝学人你把这侠客事务一笔勾。

 

There are those who go through provinces and cross the counties, seeing unfairness on their way they respond to peoples’ complaints. They soar up bodily and run on the rooftops, in stealth cutting of a wrongdoer’s head, and call it a heroic spirit in action, which transcends to the Pole Star and Altair.  Little they know that their conduct is the same as banditry. The true cultivation is but knowing thyself and mending own faults. I advise students to take this wandering knights’ business and scratch it out by one stroke of a pen.

 

(Liu Yi-ming)

.... but I also can't imagine that he would have felt quite that strongly about it...

 

its because he is a master of understatement.

 

.....and the swordsmen all killed themselves in their own rooms.

 

THE END

 

 

WoW!  You get mean when you get serious.

Hehe, check out the merry ending of this story by ZZ.

What is the relationship between Daoism and the warrior ideal?

none.

. However, does anyone know how historic Daoism, such as Huang-Lao, Tianshi, Shangqing, Lingbao, and Quanzhen viewed the position of the warrior and the hero?

With aversion, disgust and sadness.

 

 

And what about the sword of the common man?' asked the king (once more).

 

(Zhuangzi) replied, 'The sword of the common man (is wielded by) those who have their hair in a tangle, with whiskers projecting out; who wear slouching caps with coarse and unornamented tassels, and have their coats cut short behind; who have staring eyes, and talk (only) about the hazards (of their game). They hit at one another before you.

 

Above, the sword slashes through the neck; and below, it scoops out the liver and lungs. This is the sword of the common man. (The users of it) are not different from fighting cocks; any morning their lives are brought to an end; they are of no use in the affairs of the state. Your Majesty occupies the seat of the Son of Heaven, and that you should be so fond of the swordsmanship of such common men, is unworthy, as I venture to think, of your Majesty.'

 

《說劍 - Delight in the Sword-fight》

According to Wai-Lim Yip, writing in the preface of Chinese Poetry…..

 

 When Heidegger warns us that any dialogue using Indo-European languages to discuss the spirit of East-Asian poetry will risk destroying the possibility of accurately saying what the dialogue is about, he is sensing the danger of language as a "dwelling," trapping experience within a privileged subjectivity.'

How does Heidegger know? There is no asian language fluency on his resume. And why is it repeated by someone who makes a living from being a cultural compradore?

 

 

 

  Until we disarm the tyrannical framing functions of the English language, the natural self in its fullest sentience cannot be released to maximum expressivity.

 

  new ambience whereby I can stage Chinese poetry according to its original operative dynamics rather than tailoring it to fit the Western procrustean bed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wai-lim_Yip

 

I can understand that english is lifelong torture for a chinese man who moved to an english speaking milieu at 26. But there is no need to project it on the rest of us please.

I can agree that such an experience might not be the ultimate, but I don't know if one could call it an illusion entirely either. I didn't want to put too much of my own personal experience into this question to keep it more neutral and based on generalities, but I had such an experience in the past which prompted me to devote my life to these matters. And yet I am no sage, no Buddha, not enlightened, not liberated, etc., indeed I have plenty of faults and struggle to attain self-mastery.

I can totally relate to this because I had a few life-changing mystical experiences too. Nothing special, like a spirit entering my body-mind, experiencing sainthood etc. Of course to me it was more real than a brick wall.

That said, on reality vs. illusion, the experience I had was so powerful (the most meaningful thing to occur in my life) and so real that I've often described it to friends in the past like it was as if everything could be called into question, even obvious truths like 2+2=4, but never the truth and reality of this experience, which had a seal of certitude to it that is quite beyond description. So if it was illusion, then I could only conclude that all is illusion, which indeed does seem to be the position held by some traditions or figures.

 

If it were my lone experience that would be one thing, but it seems that many others have had descriptively identical experiences, and furthermore after the experience suddenly metaphysical or sacred texts suddenly made sense. So it seems there is a commonality involved here. Furthermore it involved conceptions or experiences that I was previously unaware even existed or were possible, namely the experience of timelessness/changelessness and transcendence of space, etc.

 

That said, again I remain an unenlightened mortal with plenty of faults and weaknesses and don't see myself as much more either. So is there any explanation for these experiences other than it was all a grand illusion? If it was illusion, does it lose its meaningfulness or importance? If all is illusion, doesn't even things like beauty or sacred scriptures or the teachings of the sages and all else also lose their meaning? 

 

I know one shouldn't be overly attached to experiences, however grand, and in general I am not, but my main confusion lies on how to understand it.

 

People rarely become buddhas overnight. If such an experience prompted me to study and to practice, if i am making progress slowly but surely, if i know the way to get to the ultimate that i glimpsed from afar, then it is a real experience. If i am stuck, then i either don't know the way, or don't have the strength for the way. or it was an illusion. 

Today, most scientists agree that all vertebrate animals — mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians and fish — are, to varying degrees, sentient.A rich and varied collection of research has made the evidence impossible to dismiss.

But this perspective wasn't always popular.

Historically, for example, sea-life rarely made it into humanity's realm of concern when it came to the ability to suffer. But meticulousexperiments performed on trout a decade ago essentially have laid to rest the common view that a fish cannot feel pain. There now is also scientific support for sentience in at least some invertebrates. In research by Canadian biologist Jennifer Mather and colleagues, octopuses show curiosity, play and personality.

http://www.livescience.com/49093-animals-have-feelings.html

 

And in a study led by Robert Elwood at Queens University Belfast, prawns spent more time grooming and rubbing a pinched antenna, unless they received a follow-up application of local anesthetic.

 

Err..what?

I suppose what confuses me is how one could have a glimpse at the ultimate as is reported by these mystical experiences people have had and yet remain mere mortals or unenlightened, non-liberated, subject to fear and delusion, still able to commit moral faults, etc.

easy. The thing is it was not the ultimate, at all but a mere illusion. maybe a spectacular illusion, but still..