Taoist Texts

So, on one hand we have minor methods which prolong life and cure disease. They are said to be bad.

On the other hand we have great Tao (neidan?) which is said to be good.

And yet...

Lu asked: "What is the Great Tao?"
Chung said:"The Great Tao has no form and no name. It asks no questions and gives no answers. It is so large that it has no boundaries; it is so small that nothing can fit inside it. You cannot follow it even if you have heard about it; you cannot attain it even if you tried to practice it."

 

(Zhong Li Chuan Dao Ji tr. E Wong) 吕曰：“所谓大道者，何也？”

 

钟曰：“大道无形、无名、无问、无应其大无外，其小无内。莫可得而知也，莫可得而行也！” 　　  

"You cannot follow it even if you have heard about it; you cannot attain it even if you tried to practice it."

Thats what i call honesty in advertising!

How does one know whether they are on a side path? Or on the direct path?

 

Moving towards or away from the Tao?

It is very simple: if the path is what the regular people want then it is a false path.

If the path is what the regular people dislike then its a true path.

The original:

This is the passage  in a much less shoddy translation by Madame Wong
 

 

 
Lu asked: "Why is it so difficult to know about the Tao and practice its teachings?"
 
Chung said: "It is because many people think that there are quick and easy ways to attain the Tao. They teach one another, nor knowing that all their lives they have been practicing incorrectly. With time these erroneous methods became established, and the real teachings of the Tao are forgotten.
 
Abstaining from meat, abstaining from grains, absorbing the vapors of fog and dew, swallowing saliva, living in isolation, meditating in ch'an (zen) stillness, maintaining silence, visualizing the deities, gathering yin energy, regulating breath, being celibate, stopping thinking, abstaining from physical labor, opening the cavity on top of the head, drawing in the testicles, studying the scriptures, tempering the body, slowing the breath, massaging, circulating the breath, gathering generative energy from a partner, helping the poor, cultivating the self, doing charitable works, living in the mountains, taming the mind, facing the wall, chanting the scriptures, absorbing the essences of the sun and the moon, and inhaling the vapors of the sky and the earth—these are just some of the techniques that people think will help them create the cinnabar pill of immortality. 
 
Hoping to be liberated from mundane existence, they force the body into unnatural postures and end up injuring themselves. They try to conserve generative energy by stopping the leakage of seminal fluid but do not know that these methods can make them immune only to common diseases. They think that if they can breathe like an infant and if they can stop thinking, they can cultivate the mind. They focus on retaining the breath within and try to build the fortress by reversing the flow of the Yellow River, not knowing that these techniques are only minor ways of lengthening the life span. As for sitting like a withered tree and making the mind as still as cold ashes—these are but minor techniques of focusing the spirit. 
 
Many practitioners past and present are ignorant of the correct methods of cultivation. How can their bodies be transmuted if they are stuck in the belief that they can cultivate the medicine by swallowing saliva? How can they hold on to the elixir if they are convinced that they can realize the pill the elixir if they are convinced that they can realize the pill by gathering the breath? How can the true copulation take place if they think that the liver is the dragon and the lungs are the tiger? How can they replenish the life force if they equate k'an with lead and li with mercury? They think that the yellow sprouts will grow if they apply fire and water in the four seasons. They also think that they will realize the great medicine if they hold on to the intention. Ignorant of the yearly and monthly cycles of changes, they do the wrong things at the wrong time. They do not know how to use the five elements to build the foundation and they have only vague ideas about the workings of the three existences. 
 
Like inexperienced gardeners rummaging through branches and leaves, they confuse fellow practitioners and mislead future generations of students. When the teachings are distorted, people will be distanced from the Tao. As a result, false methods will proliferate. The popular ones will be practiced widely and will eventually be accepted as truth. In my opinion the false teachers are to blame. They have taken information gathered through hearsay and gossip and have taught it to generations of unknowing students. In doing so, their actions have condemned their followers to suffering in the realm of the dead. This is very frightening indeed. The sages have always wanted to reveal the teachings of the Tao, but people throw away the opportunities to learn. In refusing to believe in the workings of Heaven and in valuing their wealth more than their life, they have doomed themselves to the realm of ghosts."
 

 

The author admits that the minor methods do have excellent health-enhancing and life-prolonging benefits.
 
 

Guys, I didn't read the whole thread, just the first page. But the tone of the translation is a bit off in my opinion. I don't think the Chinese "旁门小法" should be translated as "false methods of minor schools". Literally, the Chinese reads, "side doors [and] minor methods". Zhong Liquan goes on to say that these methods are effective at curing illness, nourishing life, quieting the mind and achieving other results.

Thats all true

The problem, as Zhong Liquan puts it, is that over time people started mistakenly believing that these methods lead to achieving the great Dao. But they don't. 

This is a bit unclear. This mistaken belief is a problem for whom exactly? Why  in practical terms is such a mistake a problem for these individuals? How many are them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH4bmi1AIG8

 

Hi all,

 

Good interview here.. he says that there is a tradition that says if a lay person becomes an arahant they have to become a monastic within 7 days or they will die.

 

Can anyone shed any light on this?  

 

Cheers,

Edward

I havent watch the tape so i cant be sure what he said but, in Buddhism its not "to become a monastic within 7 days or they will die."

What was meant initially in Buddhism that an arahant is a lay person who gained some visceral realization of buddhism.

Now he is faced with 3 choices.

If he dies in that condition he will go to nirvana.

If he keeps living the lay life he will lose it.

If he wants to preserve his realization he must join a monastery. 

"If a layman attains arahant-ship, only two destinations await him; either he must enter the Order that very day or else he must attain parinibbàna"

Milindapanha III.19

"You say that if a layman attains arahantship he must either enter the Order that very day or die and attainparinibbàna. Yet if he is unable to find a robe and bowl and preceptor then that exalted condition of arahantship is a waste, for destruction of life is involved in it."

"The fault does not lie with arahantship but with the state of a layman, because it is too weak to support arahantship. Just as, O king, although food protects the life of beings it will take away the life of one whose digestion is weak; so too, if a layman attains arahantship he must, because of the weakness of that condition, enter the Order that very day or die."

Milindapanha III.62

The Milindapanha, which is almost as old as the [rest of (Burmese ed.)] Pali Canon above implies that lay people do/did attain enlightenment. It is just that they all ordained or died within 7 days or less.

Dear all,

 

initiation in lineage and reciving transsmision of particular text is KEY.There is nothing from reading or reciting if you dont have oral instructions and explanation of the text,not to mention energetic connection with Past Masters from initiatic chain of the school which is egregore.

 

All the best,

 

Ormus

That must be correct in the true secret school that you are the student of.

But there was an old monk in whose school it was different. His name is Liu Huayang, he is one of the founders of the Wulupai school and he tells this story below:

 

SIX QUESTIONS FROM CULTIVATED TALENT LI SIBAI, WITH THE GIVEN NAME OF YUDAO AND THE NICKNAME OF QIONGYU, FROM JIEYI

 

For the first question, he asked, "Previously, I, your disciple, did not trust in Buddhism at all. I heard the words of Zhuxi that called Buddhism empty talk. Because of this I rejected it and did not grasp it.

 

 

Previously, a friend, Meng Di, had presented me a book by you, master.

 

At first I did not want to see it. Later, I forced myself to look at it, and then realized that it had genuine effectiveness.

 

With a trusting heart and without suspicion, I practised and maintained it for half a month, and fortunately I obtained the gleaming arrival of the True Seed.

 

Inside my body, I became aware of the eight meridians evenly opening up. One evening, the illness I formerly had was cured. Now I have attained Sarira. I am truly fortunate. 

 

(Huimingjing by Liu Huayang. Transl. J. Nicholson)

See? A guy got a book by chance without any kind of initiation, oral instructions or kabuki theater. He did not even want to look at it at first. Then he decided to read it and by practicing what he read, he obtained the first highest accomplishment in neidan, the Sarira. Then he comes to see the author of this book for the first time in his life, thanks him for it, the author fully believes him and retells his story for us.

Again,  no teacher, no oral explanation, no energetic connection with Past Masters ,no initiatic chain  and no egregore.

Just reading and practicing 'With a trusting heart and without suspicion". Simple is not it?

Dear Taoist text,

 

I like also to see untranslated part of the text to have context about Wai Dan.

Luckily that will set you back only US5.36 This text have been masterfully translated years ago by a real Chinese and a real Taoist. Her name is Wong. Madam Eva Wong.

Thanks. I'll try to find a place in my book buget for this one.

Maybe you wanna read whats available of it on google books first?

Should I assume that a lot of what I'm looking for is inside the Chuci ?

I think so but what is that you are looking for?

If it is parallels between Chici and Parmenides, then we have established already that they both

- perceive the human values as false and go on a marital journey to marry with the Heavenly truths

- meet goddesses with strikingly resembling names

It is unclear at this stage what were their aspirations on their return. Change the world to the better? Become the sole bearers of the aforementioned? 

Are those texts the only of that kind ?

Chuci is a unique text in the chinese tradition. So yes if that was your question.

Or should I investigate this anthology as a whole ?

You mean the Chuci? If you wanna go deeper than the paralells above, then yes.

I never said it was easy but it does require celibacy at minimum. Paypal may disagree. Btw ur founder is very clear in his huiming ching the end of leakage refers to no ejaculation. There's an image showing that in the book. 

Of course there is. The characters are very straightforward and easily verifiable by anyone 

之路   漏盡

The Path...End of Leakage

The pipe represents genitals that is why it is drawn not on the back or on the top of the head.

But here is the catch. Lets say I sell seminars for eternal life and make a disclosure: 'this stuff only works if you abstain from sex forever'. How many seminars i will sell? Thats right, zero. This picture is not a good poster for seminars thats for sure;)

 

The maidens gently persuade Justice, guardian of these gates, to open them so that Parmenides himself may pass through to the abode within. Parmenides thus describes how the goddess who dwells there welcomed him upon his arrival:

And the goddess received me kindly, and in her hand she took/ my right hand, and she spoke and addressed me thus:/ “O young man, accompanied by immortal charioteers/ and mares who bear you as you arrive at our abode,/ welcome, since a fate by no means ill sent you ahead to travel/ this way (for surely it is far from the track of humans),/ but

Right and Justice.”

(Fr. 1.22–28a)

 

The hrst reference to contemporary philosophical issues in the Li sao appears in the names of the spirit who descends at the beginning of the poem: Zhengze  or True Principle and Lingjun or Numinous Equity or Spirit Fair-share. These refer to moral principle and moral practice respectively. 

 

One of the burning questions in fourth- and third-century BCE China was where do valid moral principles come from—are they an inborn tendency or do we acquire them from outside? 

This work is very interesting, but I think that we must not miss this statement by the author itself:

 

Chens immediate lineage was a fiction, and

even that one of his two masters was a fiction. Chen invented these patriarchs and

master to boost his authority within the marketplace of daos, and he could only get

away with this because Quanzhen Daoism was not well known within his core area of

operation. Chens invented patriarchs and master are mythical echoes of other figures

from his tradition.  

 

 

SPREADING THE DAO, MANAGING MASTERSHIP,

AND PERFORMING SALVATION:

THE LIFE AND ALCHEMICAL TEACHINGS OF CHEN ZHIXU

Wm. Clarke Hudson p. 42

hehe...there is no historical master-student transmission for any longer than 2-3 generations. Anything longer gets lost in the mist of times. Anyone who claims an unbroken  transmission from the beginning of times by known and officially appointed individuals would be lying.

 

Southern Lineage, which places at its origins Zhang Boduan, the author of the Wuzhen pian (Awakening to Reality). The lineage is formed by him and four other masters:

● Zhang Boduan (Zhang Ziyang, 987?-1082) 

● Shi Tai (Shi Xinglin, ?-1158) 

● Xue Daoguang (Xue Zixian, 1078?-1191) 

● Chen Nan (Chen Niwan, ?-1213) 

● Bai Yuchan (Bai Haiqiong, 1194-1229?)

 

It is now usually accepted that Nanzong was not a "lineage" in the common sense of the term, and that the sequence of its masters was established at a later time, apparently by Bai Yuchan himself in the early 13th century.

 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/nanzong_beizong.html

This is where we come back to the crucial
importance of Parmenides. Traditionally Parmenides is
referred to as the founder of Western logic and the
father of rationalism. But what he states, so logically, is
that all movement is an illusion along with all change,
colour, birth and death—and he puts this very logical
teaching into the mouth of a goddess whom he encoun-
tered, as a priest of Apollo, on an ecstatic journey into
another world.

In other words, Western logic began by
denying all of the beliefs that we hold most dear and
undermining the reality of what we consider most rea-
sonable and real. You find exactly the same situation in
the history of Buddhist logic; and frankly, the Buddha's
discovery of the five great truths about desire and suf-
fering strikes me as a perfect example of real logic. In
fact I would go so far as to state that true logic has its
origins in mystical experience and demands a funda-
mentally religious point of view.

It is something infinitely more than that strange compromise called ratio-
nality. One only has to think of Socrates, who pushed
his reasoning with people and their beliefs so hard that
eventually the Athenians killed him. Nowadays he is
taught in universities, discussed and written about by
countless scholars.

But if Socrates himself was to walk
into a university today, I doubt whether he would last
very long. People generally want the ideas, not the reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kingsley_(scholar)

As I was reading for the first time the Cantong Qi, I was impressed by the images of a chariot, associated with circular mouvement, and going down. I should have noted the place of that passage precisely, anyway I'm sure it's in there.

 

I got intrigued, because I seemed to fit another chariot image I know very well from the greek Parmenides' poem (500BC).

 

It's hard to explain that in a few words. But basically it's the Chariot of The Sun, and you are invited to  it by Godesses who lead the way and drive the Chariot. And they are describded in a language that clearly alludes to the fact that you are marrying them.

The closest chiniese parallel to Parmenides jorney is the Nine Songs, where the narrator is meeting goddesses along his way

"Nine Songs" from the Songs of Chu, the performer narrates a wedding journey with him in a chariot drawn by two dragons.^[3]

As to alchemy the imagery there is not of a chariot but rather of a wheel or a waterwheel, albeit also connected with the sun's rotations. later on this imagery of a wheel was infrequently conflated with buddhist imagery of deer and goat carts but the original and mainstream concept was still that of a wheel.

Dear Damdao;)

as usual it is very hard to understand what you are actually trying to say but thats all good. But do I appreciate the parable of the sufi 

  It reminds me the story written by Idries Shah (under the pen name of Rafael Lefort) in which a seeker after truth goes to a sufi for initiation and the sufi ask the seeker if he is ready to abandon the world and to live a life of raw food and roots, the seeker nodded, and the sufi disappointed told the seeker: do you believe that the cathedrals, the medical improvements, etc. were possible thanks to eating roots people? 

However i think that you got the punchline wrong 

I think it goes like this:

The sufi ask the seeker if he is ready to abandon the world and to live a life of raw food and roots,

the seeker nodded,

and the sufi disappointed told the seeker: do you believe that the atom bomb, the millions killed in the world wars, the ecocides etc. were possible thanks to eating roots people? 

Yeah,   people   know that they can  burn  jing  and  qi  to refine  the  Dan of immortality ('不死丹'),  yet seldom do they  know that they can  also add  anxiety, fear , jealousy ..etc as fuel into oven.

normally trolls don't complain after throwing shit to others. You're miserably trying to express all your negativism towards Neidan schools, but you never provide any argument. You lie and troll. So take your pudding back to your face, keep calm and don't cry.

 

Speaking about the topic, you provided one fantasy story and really think it's an Argument? I told you about Nanzong, but trolls are blind and deaf, all they want is to express their P-p-p-personality. Just to cry then, "ad hominem, I'm under attack"     

to wit.

Well I dont think that taoist immortality is understood I havent seen an actual accurate description of it on here.

Jinlian who is your teacher? Thanx

I don't believe in physical immortality.  Can't find role models.

the interesting question is : IF you would find a role model for it, and  would believe in it, would that believing be a good thing?

Troll cave's ...... So naive ....So a forum anonymous s...... But trolls ..... What do you cultivate, TT? Corn? Pop-corn? Cannabis? ))) You're so boring. Eat your pudding, troll.

normally ad hominem insults are the last resort of the losing party. with neidanists its different - its their first resort.

Living a life of celibacy is far from  ,  or has nothing to  do with , making  you into  an immortal of any kind ;  it is even far from giving you a healthy  life if you can't  ' sublimate'  that   accumulated  jing into qi ,  or directly into shen ; in fact , celibacy can be worse than a life with  marriage.

 

People always mix up many things :

That is true. But in this particular case they mix up 2 things. Namely, the necessary condition and the sufficient condition.

Both celibacy and retention are necessary for alchemy to succeed. It is proven by the stories i posted above, and by the fact that a serious cultivator is traditionally even called '出家‘ (he who left the family).

These two are not sufficient but necessary. The seminar sellers employ a disingenuous subterfuge claiming that if these conditions are not sufficient therefore they are not necessary either. It is an obvious logical fallacy.

However, the seminar buyers tend to believe it. Why? Because they are not serious cultivators, they are role-players, who like to eat their pudding and to have it too. Good luck with that,

you're not here just to troll

uuuh name calling

this piece is obviously very poorly translated, both from Chinese and into english.

 

 

17. Symptoms disappearance.

 

A symptom (from Greek σύμπτωμα, "accident, misfortune, that which befalls", from συμπίπτω, "I befall", from συν- "together, with" and πίπτω, "I fall") is a departure from normal function or feeling which is noticed by a patient, reflecting the presence of an unusual state, or of a disease.Symptom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

very confusing.

Opening text of the tread in excellent and belong to Zhong Pai(central school) but it is used among some Quanzhen also and we see in Wu Liu Pai.

 

My opinion is that there is only one way of Nei Dan as this is the case of Wai Dan.Both methods are secret and have writen and oral instructions and you need transsmision from Master in lineage.

 

On the other hand I think we cant speak of only one method in Alchemy because there is also Wai Dan which is used as Way Of Immortality as Master Ge Hong clrealy show.

Dear Ormus,

perhaps you have not noticed that the text you like so much is directly contradicting what you and (Ge Hong) are saying about waidan. The text says all and any waidan is false.