Taoist Texts

I can agree that such an experience might not be the ultimate, but I don't know if one could call it an illusion entirely either. I didn't want to put too much of my own personal experience into this question to keep it more neutral and based on generalities, but I had such an experience in the past which prompted me to devote my life to these matters. And yet I am no sage, no Buddha, not enlightened, not liberated, etc., indeed I have plenty of faults and struggle to attain self-mastery.

I can totally relate to this because I had a few life-changing mystical experiences too. Nothing special, like a spirit entering my body-mind, experiencing sainthood etc. Of course to me it was more real than a brick wall.

That said, on reality vs. illusion, the experience I had was so powerful (the most meaningful thing to occur in my life) and so real that I've often described it to friends in the past like it was as if everything could be called into question, even obvious truths like 2+2=4, but never the truth and reality of this experience, which had a seal of certitude to it that is quite beyond description. So if it was illusion, then I could only conclude that all is illusion, which indeed does seem to be the position held by some traditions or figures.

 

If it were my lone experience that would be one thing, but it seems that many others have had descriptively identical experiences, and furthermore after the experience suddenly metaphysical or sacred texts suddenly made sense. So it seems there is a commonality involved here. Furthermore it involved conceptions or experiences that I was previously unaware even existed or were possible, namely the experience of timelessness/changelessness and transcendence of space, etc.

 

That said, again I remain an unenlightened mortal with plenty of faults and weaknesses and don't see myself as much more either. So is there any explanation for these experiences other than it was all a grand illusion? If it was illusion, does it lose its meaningfulness or importance? If all is illusion, doesn't even things like beauty or sacred scriptures or the teachings of the sages and all else also lose their meaning? 

 

I know one shouldn't be overly attached to experiences, however grand, and in general I am not, but my main confusion lies on how to understand it.

People rarely become buddhas overnight. If such an experience prompted me to study and to practice, if i am making progress slowly but surely, if i know the way to get to the ultimate that i glimpsed from afar, then it is a real experience. If i am stuck, then i either don't know the way, or don't have the strength for the way. or it was an illusion. 

Today, most scientists agree that all vertebrate animals — mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians and fish — are, to varying degrees, sentient.A rich and varied collection of research has made the evidence impossible to dismiss.

But this perspective wasn't always popular.

Historically, for example, sea-life rarely made it into humanity's realm of concern when it came to the ability to suffer. But meticulousexperiments performed on trout a decade ago essentially have laid to rest the common view that a fish cannot feel pain. There now is also scientific support for sentience in at least some invertebrates. In research by Canadian biologist Jennifer Mather and colleagues, octopuses show curiosity, play and personality.

http://www.livescience.com/49093-animals-have-feelings.html

And in a study led by Robert Elwood at Queens University Belfast, prawns spent more time grooming and rubbing a pinched antenna, unless they received a follow-up application of local anesthetic.

Err..what?

I suppose what confuses me is how one could have a glimpse at the ultimate as is reported by these mystical experiences people have had and yet remain mere mortals or unenlightened, non-liberated, subject to fear and delusion, still able to commit moral faults, etc.

easy. The thing is it was not the ultimate, at all but a mere illusion. maybe a spectacular illusion, but still..

just FYI

http://thedaobums.com/topic/21714-chuang-tzu-chapter-5-section-e/page-2

, "The quick fish drift and dart freely -- this is the joy of (being a) fish." 

so..do they dart just for joy or there is a biological purpose behind darting?

and does it mean that ZZ thought that fish have any other emotions? or just joy?

But then, some people read more into a story than is actually there.  

yes.

Any guess why do they do that?

When Zhuangzi claimed to know about the happiness of fish, he did not claim to be able to feel the exact same feeling. He was just saying: I feel perfect by rambling around, 

no he does not say anything like that. well, if words do have any meaning, he does not.

The intention was to bring some amount of sanity into the blind trust that millions (like in india) place in their teachers, even worshiping some of them as gods.

May be they are gods, what do we know?

The OP.-"This teacher is a multi millionaire, (just like how Rajneesh was in the 1960s in USA)."- doesn't seem like (although I am NOT A BUDDHIST.!.0)( buddhist forum and everything..) a valid argument for touting them as fake!!! A cultivated teacher/master of ANYTHING mystical/spiritual (with Siddhis/powers) would, to me, have, or be able to have any amount of dollars they like, without any egoic attachment to it whatsoever.... 

How did it happen for him to have it? Did he win a lottery or something?

The text is about all sorts of things. One can argue that any given chapter necessarily involves Dao and De, whether they are mentioned explicitly or not, but one might also argue that people tend to focus on these terms too much simply because they are considered to be the 'titular' words.

 

 

 

Oh, it's obviously about 'Dao'. But it's not only about 'Dao'.

I am a big fan of analytics so I applaud your approach. But I feel that if you go over those 80+ chapters and identifying the unique keyword for the subject matter of of that chapter, compiled such a list and analyzed that, it would have been so much more fruitful.

The text is not a rambling essay on De and what it means; the majority of chapters make no mention of it at all. Even Dao is not the focal point of over half of the chapters. 38 chapters contain no occurrence of either Dao or De. 

Does it mean that these chapters are not about D & D? If so what they are about?

While ignorance about true global poverty, life expectancy, and family planning are no doubt a source of some of these wrong-headed comparisons, one doesn’t need to be the world’s biggest cynic to recognize that the US is only compared to a selective list of countries because doing so offers a biased view of the United States that makes it looks like an especially crime-ridden place.

But, we are never allowed to compare the US to middle income countries like Uruguay, Russia, or Mexico because that would show that the US is actually a remarkably safe place in global terms on top of having many more legally owned guns than those countries.

Nevertheless, we’ve all heard it too many times to count: gun laws in the United States are “insane” because countries like Sweden and Luxembourg have far more restrictive gun laws and are much safer because of it. The US has the highest murder rate in the “developed world” — presumably because of its lax guns laws —we are told again and again.

Few people who repeat this mantra have any standard in their heads of what exactly is the “developed” world. They just repeat the phrase because they have learned to do so.

They never acknowledge that when factors beyond per capita GDP are considered, it makes little sense to claim Sweden should be compared to the US, but not Argentina.  Such assertions ignore immense differences in culture, size, politics, history, demographics, or ethnic diversity. Comparisons with mono-ethnic Asian countries like Japan and Korea make even less sense.

Why not use the UN’s human development index instead? That would seem to make at least as much sense if we’re devoted to looking at “developed countries.”

So, let’s do that. Here we see that the OECD’s list contains Turkey, Bulgaria, Mexico, and Chile. So, if we’re honest with ourselves, that must mean that other countries with similar human development rankings are also suitable for comparisons to the US.

Well, Turkey and Mexico have HDI numbers at .75. So, let’s include other countries with HDI numbers either similar or higher. That means we should include The Bahamas, Argentina, Costa Rica, Cuba, Panama, Uruguay, Venezuela, Russia, Lithuania, Belarus, Estonia, and Latvia.

You can see where this is going. If we include countries that have HDI numbers similar to — or at least as high as — OECD members Turkey and Mexico, we find that the picture for the United States murder rate looks very different (correctly using murder rates and not gun-deaths rates):

But, to me, Confusius saw value in Dao... in the way he interpreted its role on mankind

Hehe, it might come as surprise to some but for the later religious-alchemical taoists such as Liu Yi-ming  it was a given, that Confucious  was an accomplished internal alchemist, his Analects being a coded alchemical manual.

From what I understand, exercise also utilizes chi (post-natal maybe?). I need to keep my body fit because I have need to pass an annual military test, also partially to keep myself healthy. My exercises include going to the gym to do some bodyweight exercises like pushups, pullups, etc.  

 

How do you balance it with attainments in internal cultivation, or are they really not compatible? 

If there are any real internal attainments there is no need to worry about damaging those with external exercise. These two are synergistic. The more you wear out your body externally, the more your internal will grow so one is in fact beneficial to the other.

Examples?

Or is everything we do to our bodies, being an inevitable result of the natural order of things and ultimately satisfying for us as individuals, perfectly natural and acceptable? Am I not free to do with myself as I see fit?

 

Cutting hair? Clipping nails? Tattoos? Piercings? Implants? Cosmetic surgery?

 

Do you draw a line?

The correct question would be: what are the consequences? The real world ones. I would say draw the line where the bad consequences start. 

 

身體髮膚，受之父母，不敢毀傷

孝至始也

 

We are given our body, skin and hair from our parents; which we ought not to damage.

This idea is the quintessence of filial duty.

 

The Classic of Filial Piety

 

 

 

I remember a guy on the train to Beijing a couple of years ago who, on seeing one of my tattoos, told me confidently that getting tattooed or pierced or otherwise 'damaging' one's body -- the body one's parents were kind enough to bestow upon us -- was wrong, and disrespectful to one's parents. He may well have been referring to the above text.

. (Chinese readers may note where the transcriber made a spelling mistake).

  (Led).

right here

 - oh Taoist Texts, I love your vague illusions to a greater knowledge of Daoist practices 

 

You speak with the youthful confidence of someone in their 20's. But your understanding is that of someone with decades of study.

the road was long, the burden was heavy

SO - (not to prejudice you with your age) DO TELL US - HOW OLD ARE YOU???? 

53 

It's not only that we are aware of the energy that is flowing there. Something else is happening, either the energy flow is different or other energy is flowing or something of the sorts. I am quite unsure of what exactly but i do belive something different happens.

It does indeed. Good hunch.

It is as if my eyeballs and totally full of Qi 

http://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/hypertension.htm

Any suggestions from the more worldly members of the forum? I'll be mostly in Florence 

while in florence make sure to dine here 

http://www.bucalapi.com/menu-eng.htm

and order this

"bistecca alla fiorentina"

 

I  mentioned that whether a way can initialize qi , and  what quality of    it  being initialized  , is one of the  criteria to judge how good that way is .

Very good. Now this is concrete. Not that i agree but this is a precise criterion. Thank you.

Yeah. Never should we  replace the existing mind  by another mind ,  in whatever forms it is  . All minds are the enemies of the primordial qi .

May be. Or may be 借人心复道心 /take human mind - remake it into dao-mind/.

Things like neidan might have specific methods - the key is usually just to focus/rest the mind on the breath and breathe from the lower abdomen. Over time changes unfold, and here one needs to adapt according to the principles found in the classics. One must be careful to go far enough, but not too far, knowing when to rest, when to arouse, at every step. And one needs to discover how to do this naturally, for at some point the momentum of the merging energies will want to continue cycling on its own, if only one is able to get the thinking mind to merge with it rather than getting in the way of it. 

Thats what i am talking about. This is specific and precise. Thank you for that.

My final thought is this: Everyone is where they are because that is where they belong.  That is their present destiny.  In this way, we cannot really judge 'low vs middle vs top'.  We can only say, this is where they are.   

Very good. Ppl do not understand that there are no difference in methods. There is just one method under different guises. What makes the difference is the student. Either he has it or he does not.

The teachings are everywhere. They are encoded in us, and in nature. We simply become distracted by the surface of things and allow our creations to cover up the heart of things.

 

The teachings are simple, and are found explicitly stated in many places,

Well, yes, i totally agree that the three of you gents have a unique insight and desire to communicate it to us. What i would like to note is that your communication is rather inconcrete.

Say, you tell us that there is the method in DDJ but would not tell what and how-to exactly is it; Walker here would tell that the highest method is unappreciated enough but when asked to be specific - Walker walks away; if we ask Xorcist why exactly 'counting' is low while 'mind on nowhere' is a high method, he will likely to answer in generalities if at all.

So you guys have an insight, desire to share it with us - thats great. I just wish you be more specific;).