Taoist Texts

 Taoist Text's "explanation" of “四字凝神入气穴” is so far from the mark as to be, to the cultivator hoping to learn what is meant by that line, utterly useless.

Walker;) please note that i provided no explanation at all beyond literal translation of that line. Providing explanation would be teaching publicly and for free, which i do not do.

I'd give Taoist Texts the answer--it's no big secret--

Please do. I promise not criticize it, but we can have a courteous discussion if you wish.

but, well, full cup problem. Best to stay clear of a man running wild with a brimming cup. Stand too close and it's not just him who ends up scalded.

Have no fear Walker, mine is a sippy-cup , spill-proof design, for my consumption only.

 

 

Heh, your words are so empty and knowledge so thin that any true seeker of Dao will see though it.

There must be quite a few of you guys out there. 

I'll say anyway,

Please do! See, we are having a conversation which is both courteous and exciting already;)

Nei Dan Shu is methods to cultivate Dao, not be handed Dao for little efforts. expectations to reach achievement of Xian in short time is not realistic for most - someone could have a very special fate - but rare. There are many obstacles to first overcome and work to do (special methods to correct body's balance, removing the modern stress, tensions, illnesses, unsettled thoughts, correcting polluted ideas and thoughts -cleaning the Heart and so on) to prepare the body for further work on the way (the process) to cultivate Da Dao.

This is strange. You are saying that the method of alchemy can be used for the huge task of achieving immortality, but can not be used to overcome small tasks that you list above. Does that make sense?

Each person has their own unique struggles to overcome, each persons fate being different - and it takes time to correct and find the balance, and stabilise the good result, the preparation work is working on this and it is all part of the way to being able to perform further methods in the Alchemy.

What you say does make sense only if the teacher does not know alchemy himself but rather strings the student on with preparatory qigong, hoping that the dunce will pay long enough, then quit and be replaced by a new one. Its called the 'optimal rate of customer churn'.

You guys are waxing phylosophical, while i am shooting for a practical answer. How many apples in a barrel you should bite before concluding that the whole barrel' gone bad? Shall i drink the sea to the last drop to know that it is salty throu and throu?

oops wrong thread;)

I'm also a student and have been practising Daogong and YXP for almost 1 year, and WLP Juiyangshengong for much less, that is 2 classes per week for over 6 months, and 1 class per week for just under 6 months, 

So, 1 year, no neidan, just qigong. Good, no probs.

 

There is defiantly no sickness developed from the methods, only positive changes in the daily life (opportunity, increased fortune, luck, increased energy in the daily tasks - work - relationships and so on) and in the body (long term health issues correcting, sensitivity of channels and direct sense of activation of channels from methods and it doing positive work in correcting the balance, working with the post-heaven Qi with sense behind it

Excellent. But still qigong, not neidan. No neidan created in 1 year. Well, may be next year.

Taoist Texts, you have only empty words with no basis, there is nothing more to say to you.

Thanks for sharing;)

I think it is general enough as to include all people who is engaged in the practice of neidan irrespective of their lineage.

Hei look my favorite neidanisto! How are you amigo? Yes you are correct. I posit that neidan will make anybody sick in body and mind, in due course.

We know, of course, that he is attacking personally Daode Centre, reaching even the level of "constant" (常) trolling, because many times his attacks has nothing to do with the discussion;

Tsk, tsk, tsk. A little bit angry, a little bit paranoid. Is neidan making you so?

but he is including all lineages and making irresponsible statements like the counselling of fasting without even know what kind of disease was spoken of (btw, I think that Aetherous knows his MTC well and doesn't need neither such counsels nor a false sympathy that only supports his attacks against a school).

MTC? False?

Coming back to the new cycle inaugurated by tao stillness what can be said, (leaving aside the discussion about authenticity) is that the level of attention and caring given to the student is far from what I had experienced before in most schools here. Even being online classes this is not at all an obstacle for the accurate corrections made by the two teachers. So, from the point of view of the commitment and the seriousness of the teachers' teaching, we can say that it is a real school. I hope that this can clarify some of tao stillness' doubts.

Of course, we always have others experiences (subtle ones) but this is better to experience for one self.

Which experiences exactly? Please tell us.

About the methods, well, I am far from being able to analise them but they are good and give you palpable results,  

Like what results exactly? Please feel free to share.

There are smokers into their 90s... so False.

 

There are always outliers.   I study data for a living.  

 

Lies, damn lies, and Statistics... 

 

We can discuss without falling into some generalizations... I know some may be unavoidable. 

Good, i love data. As you know the only reason to study data is to predict. And prediction is impossible without generalization.

Yet, an ordinary  individual in a society is forbidden to make generalizations about other individuals. Unless the generalizations are government-approved. 'Smoking is bad', 'Vaccines are good', 

Why?

The answer is power. To make a generalization it is to gain power over the generalized. To the detriment of the incumbent powers that be. Since we live in a zero-sum game. To forbid generalization is one of the ways to stay in power.

I'm still practicing and haven't been sick since I started. I've had many positive feelings from practicing though, some of them quite incredible.

 

I'm skeptical, of course I am. The claims are insane, immortality. But the people from this school, their rational personalities, the teacher's astounding intuitive ability to appeal to the needs of each student, the steadiness and calm focus possessed by exactly all of them (I went to a seminar in St. Petersburg), the spontaneous movement practice, and again the other feelings; I can't help but stay with it to see where it all leads.

 

Thats the key word here.

diet, exercise, and Chinese medicine. Once I'm back to 100% health, which might take half a year, I'll be able to test some of the other things and see what the true cause was.

Half a year! This sounds like something very serious, wish u to get well soon. In my experience the only cure that is extremely safe and produces  wondrous results is fasting , give it a try if you will.

It is an interesting topic. When we can generalise and when we can not (or allowed not)? 'All smokers are damaging their health by smoking cigarettes'. True or false?

  I did notice with shengong that it seemed to have a pretty powerful and deep effect on the manifestations of the Water element in TCM, although I barely practiced it for a few days prior to experiencing a strange illness (which most likely originated from other things happening at the time), and so have quit since then.

 

My view on the school is that it's best for people who enjoy the training. For everyone else, there is a plethora of other schools which may be more fitting to the individual, and you shouldn't be made to feel like you're missing out on anything. I think it's only because the students and instructors of that school are so impressed with their results, that they want to help others find a good way. But there are other good schools.

Neidan pracices make people sick. Internet seminar peddlers are scammers. Nothing surprising about that. What does not cease to amaze me is how people try to rationalize away having been had, even after becoming literally sick.

 

  Who paid him thirty pieces of silver?  

hehehe;)

It's hard enough to find someone that teaches proper Neidan as it is today, if we end up having lot's of unserious teachers will finding a serious teacher become even harder?

The western neidan is a  cottage industry driven by two factors: availability of western 'teachers' and the greed of the seminar goers for health and longevity.

There are no big barriers to entry to become a neidan teacher, that is, a teacher of rejuvenation, health and immortality . The qualifications needed are less than those for a used car salesman. 

All you need to do is to memorize some verbiage and not be dead yet. Oh, yeah, also a website is a must.

Western Neidan= teachers+health/longevity. That's the formula.

But you see,  it turns out that for 200 years already Liu Huayang was saying that no teacher is necessary or even desirable, while  王常月 Wang Changyue  (?-1680)  

especially objected to refining the Material Essence and Vital Breath to get rid of one's illness and prolong bodily life,

So the true neidan has no need of a teacher, and does not provide neither health nor longevity.

Ooops!

Therefore,  i would say the wester neidan, which is a health fad, is not on the rise anymore. When these 2 truths come out, the fad will pass soon.

Kuang Changxiu’s short essay Xiantian qigong is a fun read. It’s been on my coffee table for the last couple months. It’s a great little neidan how-to manual, and one of the few counter examples to the notion that neidan can’t be learnt from books. 

Absolutely.

Liu Huayang, the founder of the neidan as we know it, says that neidan can and should be learned from his book.

this one is oldie but goodie

 Or you'd like to recall how you did translate qixue as "Qi Lair". 
 

"Lao Zi with a sword dispels cheaters and tricksters":

"An angry maniac with a shiv tries to stab Lao-zi"

Look at that poor old Lao-zi running for his life. Run, Lao-zi! Run like the wind!

Historically there was a direct line of succession in Longmen with the head of it for each generation as follows:

历任宗师

• 第一代 赵道坚
• 第二代 张德纯
• 第三代 陈通微
• 第四代 周玄朴
• 第五代分张静定和沈静圆两支传播
  • 张静定 沈静圆
  • 赵真嵩 卫真定
  • 王常月 沈常敬

To say that Longmen has no concept of the "head of the Dragon Gate Tradition" is quite untrue historically. Thats what 宗师 is.

Well Leth i see we are back at square one. I failed but enjoyed our conversation immensely;) Thank you

 "Taoist Master Wang Liping, head of the Dragon Gate Tradition." Deeper in your page, we see the claim, "Wang Liping was chosen by three masters of the Dragon Gate Tradition to become the 18th heir and holder of the lineage."

 

Your biography says you are fluent in Chinese, so how do you not realize that there is no "head of the Dragon Gate Tradition"? There is no Dragon Gate "pope," most certainly not a layman-pope,  

Walker , would you care to explain what this list is and who are all these people? Thanks;)

• 第一代 赵道坚
• 第二代 张德纯
• 第三代 陈通微
• 第四代 周玄朴
• 第五代分张静定和沈静圆两支传播
  • 张静定 沈静圆
  • 赵真嵩 卫真定
  • 王常月 沈常敬

 

 

If people other than the insatiably argumentative Taoist Texts  

As much as I am not a big fan of Wang's, Walker's accusations are unfair:

 prompting the new availability of purported teachers and teachings, at the end of the day, I think the best advice I got early in my attraction to Daoism remains the best possible advice I could give any enthusiast today: learn classical Chinese. Even though the Dao, obviously, is not limited by national boundaries or human language,

But both below and above you just say that it is. The cultural context is defined by the national boundaries and language. And your neidan colleague says that classical chinese is of no help whatsoever. You guys might wanna compare notes.

it is damn hard to understand Daoism if one is divorced from its cultural context by not being able to live around Chinese lineage holders. The older generation's role is to explain the teachings; fill in blanks and resolve the confusion left by reading and talking to others; transmit methods; and lead by example. If you don't have access to such teachers, and you don't take the time to learn Chinese (you say you don't have time to learn a language, and yet you think you have time to seek Dao? Which do you think will take more time and effort? Will the smaller task not improve the chances of success at the greater?), how can you hope to tell if these English books and websites are genuine or downright fraudulent, or perhaps a mix of wheat and chaff? On what can you rely other than your "intuition" and luck?

No other instrument except intuition and common sense are  available for that. How do you know if those chinese linage holders of yours are not frauds? Lots of dupes lived around Rajneesh and his rolls-royces for a long time too, none the wiser, but speaking the same language.

To give an example of what I mean:

 

Mr. Brine, on the front page of your website, in big letters, we see, "Taoist Master Wang Liping, head of the Dragon Gate Tradition." Deeper in your page, we see the claim, "Wang Liping was chosen by three masters of the Dragon Gate Tradition to become the 18th heir and holder of the lineage."

 

Your biography says you are fluent in Chinese, so how do you not realize that there is no "head of the Dragon Gate Tradition"? There is no Dragon Gate "pope," most certainly not a layman-pope, and there are/were probably hundreds of monks and nuns in the 18th generation, some of whom are/were quite highly achieved.

And? If there is no pope then any one can say that he is the pope in terms of mystical knowledge. Its his word against your opinion. And frankly, Wang is a recognized chinese teacher, while you are not. His words trump yours.

Also the Dragon Gate is not an organization, and Wang never claimed to be its leader. Lineage holder means that he has knowledge, thats all.

There are also plenty of Dragon Gate monks and nuns who have not even heard of Wang, and others who only have a vague impression of having heard the name of this fellow! I am speaking on the basis of conversations I've had with monks and nuns at many monasteries--people who've devoted their entire lives to Daoism, some living in such penury that they don't know when they'll get their next chance to take a shower and sleep literally on bunk beds in closets with a piece of cloth for a door! If he's the "head" of the Dragon Gate sect, then for these devotees to not even know who Wang is like a Jesuit priest never even having heard of the pope or a Gelug lama never having heard of the Dalai Lama... patently ridiculous!

You deliberately fudge the issue. Wang never says that all DG monks report to him or obey him, as in your misplaced analogy monks and priests do towards their leader.

I have seen this false claim in the writings of so many students of Wang Liping on the internet that I can't help but wonder if it is Wang himself who propagates the illusion. Then again, maybe it is a mistake made and passed on by those who don't read Chinese and haven't spent time around Daoists, like with the game telephone. Why the notion splashes across the front page of a website associated with an practitioner-academic who is responsible for translating Daoist Canon texts baffles me. 

I think you and opendao are attacking Wang because you both sell seminars and he is your competition. Is it a fair assumption on my part?

This kind of problem is not just superficial. For example, if would-be internal alchemists buy a in a book in English that apparently was prepared by students of Wang's, Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu, they will be buying a book that suffers from omissions of important material in the translated text! If a book claiming to present practical instructions omits information, what becomes of the people who use it as an instruction manual?

Nothing bad will befall them;) The book in question is a hodge-podge collection of various, tersely described methods. Leaving out some, for whatever reason is not gonna affect students. Besides you guys always say that books are useless anyway. That is germane to you language study advice too. If books are useless what use is the language?

Now, does Wang possess and pass on true transmission? Does he have great accomplishments? I have no idea and don't care to speculate. For all I know he is a profoundly achieved adept and is busy transmitting invaluable teachings to students around the globe. Be that as it may, there is still a very real and easily identifiable problem with misinformation that follows this man.

How about all the other neidan peddlers out there? Why pick on Wang? Because he is the most successful of them?

The questions I propose to people spending their money on Amazon:

 

If Wang's teachings suffer from this deeply troubling problem, what about the books and websites of others?

Oh theirs are plain horrible so again, why pick on on Wang? Judged against  the whole neidan market  he is the golden standard.

If Westerners never learn how to refer to the classics that have stood the test of centuries and milennia, how many will actually benefit from these new books and websites?

no, no, no;) The classics are useless without a teacher, remember your motto?

 Caveat cultivator. (Forgive my Latin, dear Jesuits, I know it sucks   )

Your logic has some room for improvement too.

No, molecules can not be said to be tangiable becase they are tangiable in large quantities  

 I myself was in these shoes and I practiced methods from books and I trained with suspicious teachers, and only now I understand how i was wrong with that approach

This basically says ' i was wrong every time before therefore i am right now'.

That does not at all explain why the future exists as a construct yet is not part of reality.

Because constructs are not real?

Leth we started here

How are we things?

 

And how is Dao not a thing if we are things?

Then we found out that we do not know what things are. Perhaps by now you do and agree that humans are things?

Ontology is not something put between reality and our minds, it is the study of existance and reality. I do not insert it, it is merely a description of what it is we are doing when we study or discuss the subject of existance and reality.

 

It is a field of study which have arisen because we have inquires about existance and reality, and thus must figure out what it means to exist, or what it means to be real. And as it turns out this is a very complex subject, because our language uses the word exist in many different ways and it can become unclear what is meant with existance unless we specify which form of existance we are talking about.

so why dont we specify and do away with it?

Ontological objects are such things that exists as independent objects in reality, and not such things that we have made up mental constructs of to be objects in our mind.

yes. it is crystal clear. what seems to be the problem?

And the cup is a common object often used to demonstrate that our conceptions of objects does not translate to ontological objects even if they can be said to be real, that is that the demarcation of the cup as a distinct object is not ontologicall but just a mental construct because we define the object by it's function to us and not by any sort of ontological demarcation. Thus we differentiate between physical objects and ontological objects.

 

This is a convinent distiction if we are to talk about destinctions between reality as it is and how our minds percieve reality.

See there is your problem. You constantly bring back mind objects into the reality. Why? The cup is real  and its attributes do not exist independently of it. thats all there is to know for our purposes.

Or are you to say that reality is only made up of what we percive it to be. Is reality then not subjective?

Absolutely. It is.

The problem with this is that if we define this to be reality then it really loses it's function. It makes little sense to talk about reality as something external and we might just talk about it as reality. We might instead just use words such as I think, or for me it is. But this ofcourse is problematic becase we do communicate with other beings, and if we are to asume they are in fact not only figments of our own mind then there must exists something external, something we might call real, and it must be have some form of fundamental objective aspect.

No, no problem becouse the rest of the humanity shares our subjective reality.

How can it be a construct without also being a reality?

Simple. The human mind has a miraculous power to think up new  constructs out of external stimuli. Its called consciousness.

It is my opinion that studying Daoist works without an understanding of polysemy is bound to lead to misconceptions.

I donno about that;)