Taoist Texts

亦不可㝵而疋 One cannot obtain distance,

不可㝵而利 Not obtaining profit,

亦不可㝵而害 One cannot obtain harm,

不可㝵而貴 Not obtaining riches,

亦不可㝵而戔 One cannot obtain poverty;

古爲天下貴 And one treasures all

seriously what is this? who on earth would need to 'obtain poverty' or distance, or harm? come on.

this is why I don't pay attention to Legge translations. Where under heaven did he get "nostrils" from?

 

nostrils are portals.

As per the usual, the official translators had no clue that chpt 16 is a conspectus of concepts and vocabulary elaborated on in another contemporary text:

 

The Yizhoushu (simplified Chinese: 逸周书; traditional Chinese: 逸周書; pinyin: Yìzhōushū; Wade–Giles: I Chou shu; literally: "Lost Book of Zhou") is a compendium of Chinese historical documents about the Western Zhou period (1046–771 BCE).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yizhoushu

 

which says

 

民性歸利，王若欲來天下民，先設其利而民自至，譬之若冬日之陽，夏日之陰，不召而民自來，此謂歸德。五德既明，民乃知常。

 

The nature of the people is to come back to the profit, if the king wants to make the people of the Earth come to him, he first establishes profitable conditions, so the people come on their own, it can be likened to changes of seasons that come on their own, so when the people come of their own volition is called ‘ a re-establishment of De’. Once the 5 De are bright, it means that the people know morals 常.

 

So:

 

道德經16

 

致虛極，when the resources of the country are exhausted to the limit,

守靜督。preserve peace,

萬物並作，吾以觀復。Watching the evolution of the things I noticed that they are multi-leveled

天物芸芸，各復歸其根。All the things under Heaven have layers, and each layer is based on the common root

歸根曰靜，是謂復命。Which is peace, if there is peace means that Heaven has renewed your mandate to govern

復命曰常，知常曰明。Renovation of the mandate depends on morals of your people, if they have morals then there is a spiritual protection

不知常，妄作凶。No morals, the spirits will create calamity.

知常容，容乃公，公乃王，王乃天，天乃道，道乃久，立身不殆

So the morals of the commoners, rise to the nobility, the morals of the nobility rise to the king, kings morals rise to Heaven, Heaven’s morals rise to Dao, and if this continues long there will be no danger to king’s person.

Jumping in without reading any of these 10 pages. Because I'm lazy like that.

 

 

至虛恆也 Reach the empty eternal,

獸中篤也 Maintain in honesty;

萬物方作居以頒復也 Life flourishes all around, living in coming and going;

....

 

Well...not really happy with the first 2 lines -- especially as I'm not sure what's meant in line 2

here is an illustration of the first two lines by the contemporaries

 

《淮南子 - Huainanzi》

 

《道應訓》

 

尹需學禦，三年而無得焉。私自苦痛，常寢想之。中夜，夢受秋駕于師。明日往朝，師望之，謂之曰：「吾非愛道於子也，恐子不可予也。今日教子以秋駕。」尹需反走，北面再拜曰：「臣有天幸，今夕固夢受之。」故老子曰：「致虛極，守靜篤，萬物並作，吾以觀其複也。」

 

 

Yǐn-xū have been studying the art of driving a chariot for 3 years but still could not get it. He was pained by that, and keeping it to himself constantly pondered it. One night he saw a dream as if he received a driver of the imperial chariot as a teacher. Morning after he went to the court, teacher saw him and said thusly: “earlier I would not give Dao to you sir, being afraid that you can not take it. Today, I will teach you how to drive the imperial chariot.”

Yin-xu retreated, faced the north and bowed twice saying: “certainly I, the servant received Heavenly blessing in the dream yesterday.”

This is an example of what Lao-zi talks about: ‘with emptiness reaching its limit – let me guard the calm assiduously, if so – the all things will evolve and I will just observe their multitude’.

Yes, and this is supported by Chuang Tzu a number of times as I recall.

Legge

 

道德經: 致虛極，守靜篤。萬物並作，吾以觀復。夫物芸芸，各復歸其根。歸根曰靜，是謂復命。復命曰常，知常曰明。不知常，妄作凶。知常容，容乃公，公乃王，王乃天，天乃道，道乃久，沒身不殆。 Dao De Jing: (Returning to the root)
The (state of) vacancy should be brought to the utmost degree, and that of stillness guarded with unwearying vigour. All things alike go through their processes of activity, and (then) we see them return (to their original state). When things (in the vegetable world) have displayed their luxuriant growth, we see each of them return to its root. This returning to their root is what we call the state of stillness; and that stillness may be called a reporting that they have fulfilled their appointed end. The report of that fulfilment is the regular, unchanging rule. To know that unchanging rule is to be intelligent; not to know it leads to wild movements and evil issues. The knowledge of that unchanging rule produces a (grand) capacity and forbearance, and that capacity and forbearance lead to a community (of feeling with all things). From this community of feeling comes a kingliness of character; and he who is king-like goes on to be heaven-like. In that likeness to heaven he possesses the Dao. Possessed of the Dao, he endures long; and to the end of his bodily life, is exempt from all danger of decay.

I wonder if both understandings could be true? That the character meant something about removing evil to some in the Western Zhou, but hunting to others. Because they both seem quite plausible.

I think it was Keightley

http://ieas.berkeley.edu/faculty/keightley.html

 

who in one of his articles pointed to identical terminology for hunting, warfare and punitive expeditions in Shang.

Well, leaving out the king bit, because I think most of us agree that it was put in out of necessity rather than desire..

“Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else.”

― George Orwell, 1984

Each time I transalte this one it comes out different.

here is today's version.

 

 

61白雲朝頂上。甘露灑須彌。

 

the white clouds move toward the peak

the sweet syrup must be overflowing

 

 

Hi SB, thanks for your translation. What do these 2 lines mean thou?

I'm at the point where I consider things such as enlightenment, calm abiding, etc. as state attainments and not really attached to them anymore. I am satisfied with my current ability to find bliss and happiness without formal meditative techniques. In short I am a happy guy and not inclined to persevere due to this fact.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDls5C4a_kU

Have a fun trip!

in the meantime...


有物混成，先天地生。There is a thing formed from chaos, born before Heaven-and-Earth.
寂兮寥兮，獨立而不改，周行而不殆，可以為天下母。
Utterly silent, utterly rarified, self-sufficient and immutable, it circulates without end, due to that it can serve as the matrix of Under Heaven.
吾不知其名，字之曰道，強為之名曰大。
We do not know its name, call it Dao, tenuously name it the great.
大曰逝，逝曰遠，遠曰反。
This greatness first expands near, then expands far, then circulates back.
故道大，天大，地大，王亦大。
Thus the greatness of Dao first creates the greatness of the Heaven, then the greatness of the Earth and that of the king.
域中有四大(夫)，而王居其一焉。
Although in a state there are also Four Great Ministers but the king is unique, residing separately as One (with Dao).
謂王者人靈之主，萬物系其興亡也。
For king is called the master, the numinous man, all things depend on him for life or death.
人法地，地法天，天法道，道法自然。
When it is so then the people will obey Earth (and the king), Earth will obey Heaven, Heaven will obey Dao, and Dao will obey naturalness.

You're surely not suggesting I never ask questions?

no i was impugning those 'official' translators, not you, you know whose books are on the shelf in any barns&nobles, right next to the self-help section;)

My GD translation

 

大曰筮 A greatness we can only guess at,

筮曰遠 To have to guess, it surely goes far,

I totally dig these 2 lines

Then there was

 

"国中又四大 This realm has four Greats,

而王居一安 And the King is one;"

 

I don't think "central 中" would be used only to say "this." It seems to continue talking about "returning" to the center.

 

 

国中又四大 At the center of the nation are also the Four Greats

而王居一安 Where the king dwells居 in oneness一 and tranquility安

 

 

This is always translated "and the king is one." Why???

 

Why leave out 安 tranquility???

 

When 居 dwelling is used in the Dao De Jing it's pretty much always referring to dwelling in a state of being. So when we have "dwelling oneness tranquility" why, for the love of mercy, does everyone just omit such a doctrinally important word from the sentence???

 

I need to go center myself in the Four Greats again and find my inner sovereign. This is driving me to no end..

excellent questions, people never ask questions nowadays. no questioning - no understanding. This is a very diffucult passage, I dare say. Previous translations have no continuity, they just string togeter 4-5 weird statements with no rhyme nor reason.

Exactly what 'state' ?

apparently wiki says Zhou

 

 

According to traditional accounts, Laozi was a scholar who worked as the Keeper of the Archives for the royal court of Zhou.^[23]

 

 

later on it would become any state that would accept his followers (Huang-Lao school) armed with TTC, going from court to court, like Confucious or Mo did.

 

 

 

一曰慈，二曰儉，三曰不敢為天下先。

First is mercy, second reservation, third – not daring to become the dominant state in Under Heaven.

 

This makes me think of the evolution that came from the re-interpretions mentioned above... which became: Heaven, Earth, Man.

 

 

Could be; it seems that 'the 3 gems' in politics was a placeholder formula for the 3 principles that make a country strong with a content that differed accourding to the school:

 

like this:

 

Han Fei's interpretation of Legalism stressed that the autocrat will be able to achieve the ultimate ends of Legalist philosophy of firm control over the state with the mastering of three concepts: his position of power (勢, Shì); certain techniques (術, Shù), and laws (法, Fǎ) as described in his classic work, the Han Feizi (book).

 

or this:

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E4%B8%89%E5%AF%B6

 

夫劍產于越，珠產于江漢，玉產于昆山，此三寶者

 

swords, pearls, jade

 

文王曰：「敢問三寶？」

太公曰：「大農、大工，大商，謂之三寶

 

large agriculture, workforce, trade

I won't say that that meaning isn't there... but I don't know if it's quite as overt as all that...?

They say that the literature of those times came from a broiling milieu of social engineers, wizards, strategists, warriors for hire who were traveling from a court to a royal court seeking grants, implementation and a worthy sovereign. The texts like TTC were composed for the prince to read, understand and implement, so they had to be practical, precise and overt. To wit:

 

 

Han Feizi, Wade-Giles romanization Han Fei-tzu (Chinese: “Master Han Fei”) (born c. 280, China—died 233 bce, China), the greatest of China’s Legalist philosophers. His essays on autocratic government so impressed King Zheng of Qin that the future emperor adopted their principles after seizing power in 221 bce.

A member of the ruling family of Han, one of the weaker of the warring states that were in conflict during the 5th–3rd centuries bce, he studied under the Confucian philosopher Xunzi but deserted him to follow another school of thought more germane to the conditions accompanying the collapse of the feudal system in his time. Finding that his advice to the ruler of his native state went unheeded, he put his ideas into writing.

 

If the author would write with a Taoist attitude in mind 'oh this cryptic book of mine means anything you want it to mean Your Highness', he would have been kicked out in a a jiff.

道德經67

《道德經》:
天下皆謂我道大，似不肖。
Every (warring state in) Under Heaven proclaims territorial expansion as its strategy (Dao), which seems not clever.
夫唯大，故似不肖。若肖久矣。其細也夫！
It is the expansion, that makes it not clever. For when such cleverness goes on long – it becomes knavery.
我有三寶，持而保之。
My (state), on the other hand have 3 gems (different from those of the other states), to those 3 we will hold fast.
一曰慈，二曰儉，三曰不敢為天下先。
First is mercy, second reservation, third – not daring to become the dominant state in Under Heaven.
慈故能勇；儉故能廣；不敢為天下先，故能成器長。
Mercy to my people will make brave warriors out of them; reservation will allow us to build a reserve of war chariots; not daring to become the dominant state in Under Heaven will allow my state to complete its projects and to last.
今舍慈且勇；舍儉且廣；舍後且先；死矣！
The others abandon mercy yet want bravery from their army; abandon economy yet want to build chariots; abandon the rear yet want to become the dominant state - are bound to perish.
夫慈以戰則勝，以守則固。天將救之，以慈衛之。
(But my state) will gain victory in war due to mercy, and then will hold firm (to the territory). (After that) the Heaven will protect our gains, and it will stay secure due to the mercy (our ruler shows to his people).

"敲破尊鼎，损毁家当"

 

The very original meaning, if we want to use that, was to break a ritual Ding (or household ornament generally).

So, perhaps a sense of extreme misfortune? Like breaking a mirror?

 

4. 敗道 [bai4dao4], adj., one who fails in discipline to become Taoist immortal.

 

 

yes thats an extreme misfortune, that

 

 

 

Not about what they want. About what's best.

John F. Kennedy — 'Victory has a hundred fathers and defeat is an orphan.[News conference, April 21 1961]'

 

 

seems 'best ' is an orphan too;). best for whom?

Hi HE;)

敗failure.

note that 從事 is a compound character meaning "attending to." It's perhaps intentionally less strong than "ruling over."

this is an excellent note. Yes it is an euphemism, much in the same vein as a military expedition to vanquish a neigbouring tribe, to sacrifice the prisoners was called 'pacifying' in those times.

I would just add that 敗failure is a derivative sense. its original meaning was specifically 'to defeat' or 'a defeat'


(1) To fail, usu. 失敗：事情，計劃失敗了.
(2) (AC) to defeat: 敗秦師 defeated the [qin2] army;
(modn.) 把敵打敗 defeat the enemy, also 擊敗.
(3) To break (alliance, treaty 敗盟，敗約).
(4) To spoil (good name of family 敗家風). Adj. (1) Defeated: 敗兵，敗軍 defeated troops;
打敗仗 defeated in battle;
敗不成軍 army is completely routed.
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/

 

the all myriad things are assisted (in returning to) their nature. In this way they do not fail, no?

Hmmm..i dont know, did they want to return to their nature? Have they been asked what they want? Is their nature to be used and discarded as that of the straw dogs? If yes then they have not fail for sure.

 

Interesting, you guys.

 

Practicality. Is it useful (to me)?

It coulld have been in your CO days;)

So, the "more Taoist" way is perhaps less realistic?

 

To me, yes, i always poke gentle fun at modern taoists, but even by the time TTC was first written down sometime before 300 BC it has lost its practicall meaning becoming a sacred text whose meaning ranges from abstract philosophy to intenal alchemy to self-cultivation. Its existence in many variants hints that it was not properly understood, being twisted to suit a scribe's world view.

 

 

 

Can this part in the GD be interpreted in such a manner, though?

 

聖人谷不谷 -- referring to the sage himself, and not the people, not wanting to desire

Thats certainly how the scribe undertstood it, but I think the scribe omitted the reference to the people becouse it made no sense to him . Same with the next line 學不學 where the reference to the populace is retained but is still read as a reference to the sage not the populace.

 

Now when i see 'not to teach' and 'populace' in the same sentence i can not but recall Confucious'

 

泰伯:

子曰：「民可使由之，不可使知之。」Tai Bo:

The Master said, "The people may be made to follow a path of action, but they may not be made to understand it."

 

 

 

so i infer that 'not teaching' referes to the people, and project that on the preceding line as well.

Ah..well..

 

聖人谷不谷 The wise man desires not to desire,

不貴難㝵之貨 And does not covet rare things;

學不學 Learns not to learn,

復眾之所過 And returns to the beginning;

 

Practically (and linguistically), does this make sense?

 

Learn not to learn / undo one's learning / not hold onto ideas, and one goes back (mentally) to the beginning, whence everyone else has come (but no longer resides) -- i.e. like a newborn, no preconceptions

Well yes it does make sense. A very metaphorical, Taoist, benign sense.

 

 

To me, the reality looks way darker:

 

《群書治要•德經》:

為者敗之，執者失之，those who act get vanquished, those who cling - lose

聖人無為故無敗，the sages do not act and therefore do not get vanquished

民之從事，常於幾成而敗之，In ruling over the commoners, (the rulers) always wait till (insurgency) come to a head before vanquishing it,

慎終如始，則無敗事，but if (the ruler) would take same care in the beginning (of the uprising) as he did at the maturity of it – then he would vanquish it with non-action

是以聖人 therefore the sages (make) the commoners

欲不欲，不貴難得之貨，what is desirable – not to desire, so (masses) do not value the hard to get goods,

學不學，復衆人之所過，what is teachable – not to learn, to check (復) the transgressions of masses

以輔萬物之自然，而不敢為焉。 in these way all things are guided naturally never daring to act up.

Funny story:

 

 

孔子不聽，顏回為御，子貢為右，往見盜跖。盜跖乃方休卒徒太山之陽，膾人肝而餔之。孔子下車而前，見謁者曰：「魯人孔丘，聞將軍高義，敬再拜謁者。」謁者入通，盜跖聞之大怒，目如明星，髮上指冠，曰：「此夫魯國之巧偽人孔丘非邪？為我告之：『爾作言造語，妄稱文、武，冠枝木之冠，帶死牛之脅，多辭繆說，不耕而食，不織而衣，搖脣鼓舌，擅生是非，以迷天下之主，使天下學士不反其本，妄作孝弟而儌倖於封侯富貴者也。子之罪大極重，疾走歸！不然，我將以子肝益晝餔之膳。』」 Confucius, however, did not attend to this advice. With Yan Hui as his charioteer, and Zi-gong seated on the right, he went to see Dao Zhi, whom he found with his followers halted on the south of Tai-shan, and mincing men's livers, which he gave them to eat. Confucius alighted from his carriage, and went forward, till he saw the usher, to whom he said, 'I, Kong Qiu of Lu, have heard of the general's lofty righteousness,' bowing twice respectfully to the man as he said so. The usher went in and announced the visitor. But when Dao Zhi heard of the arrival, he flew into a great rage; his eyes became like blazing stars, and his hair rose up and touched his cap. 'Is not this fellow,' said he, 'Kong Qiu, that artful hypocrite of Lu? Tell him from me, "You invent speeches and babble away, appealing without ground to (the examples of) Wen and Wu. The ornaments on your cap are as many as the branches of a tree, and your girdle is (a piece of skin) from the ribs of a dead ox, The more you talk, the more nonsense you utter. You get your food without (the labour of) ploughing, and your clothes without (that of) weaving. You wag your lips and make your tongue a drum-stick. You arbitrarily decide what is right and what is wrong, thereby leading astray the princes throughout the kingdom, and making its learned scholars not occupy their thoughts with their proper business. You recklessly set up your filial piety and fraternal duty, and curry favour with the feudal princes, the wealthy and the noble. Your offence is great; your crime is very heavy. Take yourself off home at once. If you do not do so, I will take your liver, and add it to the provision for to-day's food."'

From the Guodian A7 (slips 10-13)

I don't think there's anything particularly contentious here.

 

contention stems only from inquiring what does it actually mean in practical terms.

.. I still want to suggest that they might have been less inclined to believe ideas about a big woman creating nobles and commoners separately out of clay...

 

May be. But Lao-zi did apparently did believe in Di being an intermediate creator.

 

道德經:

道沖而用之或不盈。淵兮似萬物之宗。挫其銳，解其紛，和其光，同其塵。湛兮似或存。吾不知誰之子，象帝之先。

Dao De Jing:

(The fountainless)

The Dao is (like) the emptiness of a vessel; and in our employment of it we must be on our guard against all fulness. How deep and unfathomable it is, as if it were the Honoured Ancestor of all things! We should blunt our sharp points, and unravel the complications of things; we should attemper our brightness, and bring ourselves into agreement with the obscurity of others. How pure and still the Dao is, as if it would ever so continue! I do not know whose son it is. It might appear to have been before God.

http://ctext.org/dao-de-jing