Taoist Texts

Could be, but thats a small issue. Important thing is that we, after 3000 years have reconstituted the original. Now we can answer the million dollar question: religion or not?

Being that the 非其鬼 is exactly the same in both texts, we'd do well to translate it in the same way. The Confucius translation makes sense.

 

Could Laozi be using C's words to make a different point?

sur...this iteration is much closer to the original.

 

what i find fascinating is that even in

 

The Huáinánzǐ (Chinese: 淮南子; Wade–Giles: Huai-nan Tzu; literally: "The Masters/Philosophers of Huainan") is a 2nd-century BCE Chinese philosophical classic

 

this passage is glossed over, evincing poor understanding, while the famous 'small fry fish' line is completely misunderstood. It means either a radical cultural shift that broke the transmission, happening in 3rd century BC; or that Lao-zi is older by several centuries, dating not from 4th century but from much earlier.

治大國若亨小鮮。Governing a great nation depends on sacrificing 亨 small (family-level) ancestral sacrifices 鮮.

以道蒞天下，In order to make the Under Heaven orderly

其鬼不神；family-level ancestral ghosts should not be (sacrificed to) as nation-level gods

非其鬼不神，and non-family 非其鬼 ghosts should not be (sacrificed to) as nation-level gods.

Thus

其神不傷人；domestic gods would not harm people

非其神不傷人，and foreign gods would not harm people

聖人亦不傷人。the sages also would not harm people

夫兩不相傷，when these two (foreign and domestic gods) do not harm,

故德交歸焉。 (Heaven) will send down its beneficiary De.

 

Notes:

 

On struggle against proliferation of non-family and foreign ghosts:

 

子曰：「非其鬼而祭之，諂也。見義不為，無勇也。」

Wei Zheng: The Master said, "For a man to sacrifice to a spirit which does not belong to him is flattery. To see what is right and not to do it is want of courage."

 

 

公冶長:

子曰：「臧文仲居蔡，山節藻梲，何如其知也？」

Gong Ye Chang: The Master said, "Zang Wen kept (worshipped) a large tortoise in a house, on the capitals of the pillars of which he had hills made, and with representations of duckweed on the small pillars above the beams supporting the rafters. Of what sort was his wisdom?"

 

On relationship between sages ghosts and spirits:

 

禮運:

故聖人參於天地，并於鬼神，以治政也。

Li Yun:

Hence the sage forms a ternion with Heaven and Earth, and stands side by side with spiritual beings, in order to the right ordering of government.

 

禮運:

故聖人作則，必以天地為本，以陰陽為端，以四時為柄，以日星為紀，月以為量，鬼神以為徒，…。

Li Yun:

Thus it was that when the sages would make rules (for men), …to use... the spirits breathing (in nature) as associates

 

 

I never claim any ownership so no.

Nope, though I know a few people who do...

I'd position myself agnosticly as I do with God/gods.

 

Why do you ask?

 

Given that this chapter is about ghosts I thought I would better understand yours and MH's POV knowing if you ppl treat the subject as fact or fiction. Also I am a mystically inclined dreamer who loves a weird story.

 

Do you?

Yes, I had experinces with ghosts and saw a spectacular UFO once.

If that plate got close to me it would be empty in no time. No beer though, thanks. Wine? Sure.

ooh a gentleman of distinction.

 

So MH have you ever see a ghost? Or a UFO? Or anything weird that cant be explained?

Hey Dusty

 

do you belive in ghosts?

 

Yep. A little carry-over of the older Shamanistic traditions in that chapter. That always rubbed me wrong but I have learned to not take it too seriously anymore.

 

this is taken with beer

 

60

道德經:

治大國若烹小鮮。以道蒞天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神，其神不傷人；非其神不傷人，聖人亦不傷人。夫兩不相傷，故德交歸焉。 Dao De Jing:

(Occupying the throne)
Governing a great state is like cooking small fish.
Let the kingdom be governed according to the Dao, and the manes of the departed will not manifest their spiritual energy. It is not that those manes have not that spiritual energy, but it will not be employed to hurt men. It is not that it could not hurt men, but neither does the ruling sage hurt them.
When these two do not injuriously affect each other, their good influences converge in the virtue (of the Dao).

 

道德經60

《道德經》: 治大國若烹小鮮。以道蒞天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神，其神不傷人；非其神不傷人，聖人亦不傷人。夫兩不相傷，故德交歸焉。 《老子河上公章句·居位》: 治大國者若烹小鮮。以道蒞天下，其鬼不神。非其鬼不神，其神不傷人。非其神不傷人，聖人亦不傷。夫兩不相傷，故德交歸焉。 《馬王堆·老子甲德經》: □□□□□□□□□□天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神也，其神不傷人也；非其申不傷人也，聖人亦弗傷□。□□不相□，□德交歸焉。 《馬王堆·老子乙德經》: 治大國若亨小鮮。以道立天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神也，其神不傷人也；非其神不傷人也，□□□弗傷也。夫兩□相傷，故德交歸焉。

I'd note that in the TTC, there isn't a single suggestion for people to worship, sacrifice, be obedient, etc,

 

That very well could be true but what about chpt 60?

 

60

道德經:

治大國若烹小鮮。以道蒞天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神，其神不傷人；非其神不傷人，聖人亦不傷人。夫兩不相傷，故德交歸焉。 Dao De Jing:

(Occupying the throne)

Governing a great state is like cooking small fish.

Let the kingdom be governed according to the Dao, and the manes of the departed will not manifest their spiritual energy. It is not that those manes have not that spiritual energy, but it will not be employed to hurt men. It is not that it could not hurt men, but neither does the ruling sage hurt them.

When these two do not injuriously affect each other, their good influences converge in the virtue (of the Dao).

It is what you want from it but can't be limited by what you or others think it is.

 

Wishful thinking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

There've been plenty of teachers (even in the last few decades) who are *extremely* advanced mystically and misbehave otherwise,

 

may be thats the other way around. Could it be that they were not advanced mystically but rather mistycally challenged?

hobo,

 

Care to enlighten me how you have come upon this realization?

 

Hi;) oh i just read stuff

 

 

Or Is your word eternally right?

Normally yes, since i am a professional on these matters.

 

Why would Chinese Astrology base your sign on your birth year, rather than your 'inception' year?

 

pls check these links out for starters

 

 

http://characters.cultural-china.com/talk22.html

 

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/36461-how-do-you-calculate-your-age/

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_age_reckoning

Hi there,

 

I'm wondering if someone can provide me to some references or give me their direct experience of the following:

 

- Zhu You Shu 祝由術 : also known as "chinese hypnosis". How might this have been done in ancient times? Are there passages describing methodologies in the Huang Di Nei Jing, other medical canons or pieces of Taoist literature?

 

http://baike.baidu.com/view/326375.htm

Hi Gmp, I was wandering how the plumbing and sewage works at yr place? Thanks

i dont understand this passage. what is its point besides a trivial observation that jeopardising own life is not smart?

the slave boy how it happened: well, he had a bundle of writing slips and was reading a book.

 

this hints at a remarkable literacy ratio for those times. heck for any times

This is one of the few times I actually wish I could read Chinese, and especially the Characters of Lao Tzu's time.

make like a vicar and enjoy it vicariously

無死地 -- "there is no place of death". 無 never means "should", does it?

 

of course not bu the whole bit reads to that effect

 

蓋聞善攝生者，陸行不遇兕虎，入軍不被甲兵；兕無所投其角，虎無所措其爪，兵無所容其刃。

 

夫何故？why do these bad things above do not happen to them?

以because 其 they 無are not 死地 in deathlands。

 

sorry about that, i was to terse for my own good;)

1. 人之生，動之死地

-- 死地 occurs twice in the chapter, but you seem to brush past the mention of "death" in the first instance?

 

Good point. Lets compare editions

 

 

《道德經》: 出生入死。生之徒，十有三；死之徒，十有三；人之生，動之死地，十有三。夫何故？以其生，生之厚。蓋聞善攝生者，陸行不遇兕虎，入軍不被甲兵；兕無所投其角，虎無所措其爪，兵無所容其刃。夫何故？以其無死地。

《老子河上公章句·貴生》: 出生入死。生之徒十有三，死之徒死十有三，人之生，動之死地十有三。夫何故，以其求生之厚。蓋以聞善攝生者，路行不遇兕虎，入軍不披甲兵，兕無投其角，虎無所措爪，兵無所容其刃。夫何故，以其無死地。

《馬王堆·老子甲德經》: □生□□□□□□有□□□徒，十有三；而民生生，動皆之死地之十有三。夫何故也？以其生生也。蓋□□執生者，陵行不□矢虎，入軍不被甲兵；矢無所投其角，虎無所昔其蚤，兵無所容□□。□何故也？以其無死地焉。

《馬王堆·老子乙德經》: □生入死。生之□□□□□之徒，十又三；而民生生，僮皆之死地之十有三。□何故也？以其生生。蓋聞善執生者，陵行不辟兕虎，入軍不被兵；革兕無□□□□□□□□其蚤兵□□□□□□□□也？以其無□□□。

 

 

so MWD specifically has 而民生生 the commoners that multiply 動皆 all are active (動) in the lands of death 之死地之十有三 and constitute the last 1/3 rd.

However,

 

徒 means follower or believer, right? How does that fit with the working population theory?

 

sure, as a noun, but its core meaning is 'to go on foot' as per zdic

 

● 徒

tú ㄊㄨˊ

　1. 步行：～步。～涉。

　2. 空：～手。

　3. 白白地：～然。～劳无益。

　4. 只；仅仅：家～四壁。

　5. 从事学习的人：～弟。～工。学～。师～。

　6. 同一派系或信仰同一宗教的人：信～。教～。党～。

　7. 人（多指坏人）：匪～。暴～。赌～。叛～。

　8. 剥夺犯人自由的刑法：～刑。

so 1/3rd goes from birth onward etc , so TTC makes the same age analysis as the modern graph below

Don't ask me. I new here.

You and me both. These people just lazily substitute chinese words for english ones and call it translating.

 

thirteen messengers here they come

 

The chinese believe its the inception moment that counts. E.g. what time of day and the year season the embryo is incepted, the birthday not so much.

And, in the first half, the numbers don't add up. In your translation there is only 90% accounted for. In Henricks' translation he talks about thirteen companions of life and death.

 

thats true. to highlight my point that this chapt is about demographics i used percentages (fractions of 100), which the chinese did not have at that time. They used tenths instead. When a a ten had to be split three ways there would always be an odd one, corresponding to a statistical error. Any measurement or a count is always an approximation. The entire population would never be fully accounted for what with robbers, good for nothings, AWOLers and fantasy taoists, thats the remaining 10% for you so TTC is just being realistic here

 

 

In Henricks' translation he talks about thirteen companions of life and death.

 

who s that and where are they now?

道德經50

 

《道德經》: 出生入死。The balance of births and deaths in a state

生之徒，十有三；死之徒，十有三；人之生，動之死地，十有三。On average out of 100% of the population, 30% are just born, 30% are nearing death; and 30% are of productive age.

夫何故？以其生，生之厚。How can the productive age population be multiplied?

蓋聞善攝生者，To enlarge this population stratum

陸行不遇兕虎，入軍不被甲兵；兕無所投其角，虎無所措其爪，兵無所容其刃。

it should be kept safe from wild animals and war.

夫何故？以其無死地。

Or in other words, it should not be placed in the ‘lands of death’. (places of danger).

 

 

Basically this is about husbanding the population by the king. The best way to do it is to keep it out of danger, then it will multiply on its own. Its that simple.

 

Of course later on this was made to be about some fantasy taoists being good at managing own vitality to the point of becoming impermeable to sharp objects. Right.