Taoist Texts

Everything and nothing.

thats an easy answer

Not a pure philosophy. Just philosophy, pure and simple, unadulterated with religious mumbo jumbo. Theories on how to understand life and live well, based on sound principles (in this case, the principles of Dao)

So, its like peeling an onion, There is TTC which contains pure philosophy which contains the principles of Dao. Whats in the principles of Dao?

What.....???

Neigong eh?

 

I'd be curious to know your reasoning.

Yes excellent question. To start some definitions and background are in order.

Definition: Neigong would be any exersise that is conducted within the bodymind with a view to get tangible benefits.

Background:

The Chinese word wu 巫 "spirit medium; shaman; shamaness; sorcerer; doctor; proper names" was first recorded during the Shang Dynasty (ca. 1600-1046 BCE), when a wucould be either sex. During the late Zhou Dynasty (1045-256 BCE) wu was used to specify "female shaman; sorceress" as opposed to xi 覡 "male shaman; sorcerer" (which first appears in the 4th century BCE Guoyu). Other sex-differentiated shaman names include nanwu 男巫 for "male shaman; sorcerer; wizard"; and nüwu 女巫, wunü 巫女, wupo 巫婆, and wuyu 巫嫗 for "female shaman; sorceress; witch".

Wu is used in compounds like wugu 巫蠱 "sorcery; cast harmful spells", wushen 巫神 or shenwu 神巫 (with shen "spirit; god") "wizard; sorcerer", and wuxian 巫仙 (with xian"immortal; alchemist") "immortal shaman".

The first Chinese dictionary of characters, the (121 CE) Shuowen Jiezi defines wu as zhu 祝 "sacrifice; prayer master; invoker; priest" (祝也 女能以舞降神者也 象从工 两人舞形, tr. Hopkins 1920:432) and analyzes the Seal graph, "An Invoker. A woman who can serve the Invisible, and by posturing bring down the spirits. Depicts a person with two sleeves posturing."

The Oroqen shaman Chuonnasuan in July 1994.

Emperor Wu of Jin Dynasty, 7th-century painting

Note that both have a veil made of beads on their heads, especially in front of the eyes. Thats what the ancient neigong looks like.

People continue to claim that there is religious, mystical, and neigong -related stuff in the GD, but I have yet to see any real evidence of such.

....

 

What I've found is almost entirely pure philosophy.

whats a pure philosophy and why anyone ever would need either to write or to read it?

I'd be curious to know how/why the GD version is so different to the received. When was the extra stuff added? Or if the GD version is incomplete, why is it?

Its because the GD was organised differently. E.g. this chpt of GD is limited to neigong work. While the others are synthetic - the neigong paragraphs and the politics paragraphs were put in the same chapters based on common principles behind those both.

ahh thats the reason behind the war on xmas

Hi Daeluin

its great that you are researching this. For a different angle of that story:

....Next year he went to Qin, and reporting to Kan-gu for the third time, respectfully asked for final clarification.

 

The old man said: the medicine come from outside, but the cinnabar incepts within.

He also said: the pre-Heavenly qi comes from the void and non-being. You should look into this very deeply, and investigate this principle with minute attention. But you still need to finish your human affairs first, and then it would be possible.

 

the Teacher (Liu) kowtowed to him, and went back unsatisfied, his doubts not dispelled, being 23 at that time.

 

....

 

 

Qi lived in Huangsha for several decades, but never revealed his real name of Qi, so eventually Suo stuck.

 

The teacher asked for audience and went to visit him, kowtowed and implored for instruction in Dao, to which Qi asked: what did your teacher teach you?

The teacher told him about ‘Poisonous snake leading the way’, about ‘medicine comes from outside, cinnabar incepts inside’, and ‘pre-Heavenly qi comes from void and non-being’ admonitions.

Qi asked: have you understood these or not?

The teacher admitted: the first method I understand, but the latter ones – still don’t.

Qi said: what you are doing is merely exercising yourself, how can you reach a better place that way? If you go and ask people nicely, then you will sure get what they have. Theirs is a true intent, it is not hard to make it yours.

The teacher could not decipher the meaning, so he implored again.

Qi said: a true man breaths continuously, a commoner breaths with his throat*.

The teacher begged again: I, your student, am stupid and lost, please clarify your guidance.

Qi replied: I have already gave you guidance, if you are not clear on it, what is the point of asking again?

 

*a quote from Zhuang-zi

 

At that time the teacher felt completely lost, and because he could not penetrate the meaning of this, he pondered it for three days and nights, rejecting food, forgetting to sleep, doubting and worrying in turns. On the fourth day, while tea was brewing, Qi took out a copy of Analects and said: give this book a read.

 

The teacher took the book and read it front and back attentively, and found that all of it contained the principles of Dao, each aphorism was in agreement with what Qi said. The teacher thought to himself: although the aphorisms add up, could it be that I still miss the secret meaning? So he kept turning it over in his mind from early morning till noon, and seeing that there is nothing that he did not understand, put down the book and came out of his room.

Qi asked: where do you think you are going?

The teacher replied: to the riverbank.

Qi asked: to the riverbank to do what?

The teacher replied: to the riverbank to fish.

Qi countered: the fish is in the water deep down, what to do?

The teacher replied: first entice it with the bait, then angle it with the hook, how could it not be caught?

 

From this, Qi saw that the teacher understood it, and on the same night transmitted him all about methods of cinnabar and phases of fire in detail; encouraging him, said: this work requires 20 years of utmost gongfu (effort), and then you will see the effect. Now, you strive with all your force, don’t be lazy, as to me, I will go into hiding.

 

In gratitude, the teacher presented him with a poem:

 

For 13 years I could not dispel the sadness of mine,

But in Saint-stay village by questioning you, I got to its root.

Nowadays I have realized the buddha-hood’s shrine,

How to raise an immaterial, yet material white ox, I understood.

 

He was 35 years old at that time.

That was probably my not-so-well-articulated intention of the original post:

That eventhough the Daoist (and other) classics articulate the blueprint by way of allegory and metaphor, yet in reality it´s both subtle, scary, boring, confusing and even downright impossible from the point of the "me".

In real life we stand in this muddling through without ever being in the ideal circumstances of the so-called sages of old.

They were regular dudes with plagued with the urge.

The texts are idealized, and also in how they describe the alchemical or meditative process.

We all know it´s way more murky, fuzzy, winding and usually not-so-profound.

 

h

Hmmm, no;). Not that it matters but i completely disagree with you, especially on "murky, fuzzy" thing. From my perspective and judging by your accounts you have made great progress and now you have stalled because you dont know what the next step should be and whether there is a next step at all. You can PM me if you wish, but then again its your life and your reality. We all live in realities of our choosing.

《符言》

19 符言:

老子曰：道者直己而待命，時之至不可迎而反也，時之去不可足而援也，故聖人不進而求，不退而讓，隨時三年，時去我走，去時三年，時在我後，無去無就，中立其所。天道無親，唯德是與，福之至非己之所求，故不伐其功，禍之來非己之所生，故不悔其行，中心其恬，不累其德，狗吠不驚，自信其情，誠無非分，故通道者不惑，知命者不憂。帝王之崩藏骸於野，其祭也祀之於明堂，神貴於形也，故神制形則從，形勝神則窮，聰明雖用，必反諸神，謂之大通。

Lao-zi said:

The implementation of Dao is straightforward, all there is to it is to wait for the mandate*. When it comes - you must not counter and resist it; when it is taken away - you must not stall and cling to it. That is why the sages do not advance to seek it, do not retreat to yield it, follow the times for the three years**, the time goes – I go, after the three years have passed – the timing is up to me, so I neither leave nor arrive, but occupy the proper centre.

The Heavenly Dao is non-partisan, and (awards mandates) to only those with De, when good fortune arrives – it is not because I sought it specifically, so no point in bragging about the merit; when a misfortune arrives – it is not because I gave rise to it specifically, so no point in deploring the conduct.

So be serene in your heart, do not wear out its De, do not be scared of barking dogs, trust your passions, do not divide your sincerity. It is like this， that those who have penetrated the implementation of Dao do not doubt, and those who understand the mandate do not regret.

For when the emperor passes away his bones are hid in the wilderness, sacrifices are made to him in the Temple of Brightness, but it is his spirit that is the most valuable in his body, therefore when your spirit controls your body the body obeys, but when the body overcomes the spirit – the spirit depletes, although its intelligence is keen. You must return to the all bodily spirits which is called the Great Penetration.

*to the kingdom

**3 years of grieving for the previous king

Thats very true. However, it seems that there were at least 2 separate strands in proto-daoism - the polititcans, and the internal gods visualisers. The politicians were not interested in the internal gods and vice versa.

Why is it easy?

it is a questions that is easy to answer bcause the answer is provided in the texts. So we know exactly what needs to be done and how to do it, it is not easy to do thou.

OK good.. but doesn't this mean that the laugh in that text is specified at respectful/awed, whereas the laugh in this chapter isn't specified as anything but 大 ?

Its because a great laugh is a meaningful formula in itself. As Dawei said its akin to Zen laugh. If Dao doesnt snap into elation the lowest rungs of society its useless, its impotent. Who needs such a feeble dao?

all in all i feel good about this chapter. Great work everyone!

oor a its a funny misunderstanding and those were not scholars at all

Samurai (侍^?), usually referred to in Japanese as bushi (武士^?, [bu͍ꜜ.ɕi̥]) or buke (武家^?), were the military nobility of medieval and early-modern Japan. According to translator William Scott Wilson: "In Chinese, the character 侍 was originally a verb meaning to wait upon or accompany persons in the upper ranks of society, and this is also true of the original term in Japanese, saburau. In both countries the terms were nominalized to mean "those who serve in close attendance to the nobility", the pronunciation in Japanese changing to saburai. According to Wilson, an early reference to the word "samurai" appears in the Kokin Wakashū (905–914), the first imperial anthology of poems, completed in the first part of the 10th century.^[1]

By the end of the 12th century, samurai became almost entirely synonymous with bushi, and the word was closely associated with the middle and upper echelons of the warrior class.

Well, "speak now or I'll stop paying attention because I've already got an answer that I'm happy with", anyway

hehe;) thats cool, plenty of other juicy chapters await us

I gotta disagree that it "shines through".. maybe it glints occasionally, but that might just be by accident

 

 

 

Firstly, what is the command of Dao?

As you may notice from any folklore or even from Political Sc 101, the governemnt structure is mostly dual on the top: there is a king/president who commands and there is a prime minister who advises him as to what to do. But who advises the prime minister? In ancient China that would be Dao/Heaven, into which he alone can tune in, get the memo from the Heaven, and pass the Heavenly memo down the line

Secondly, instead of 其中 (which most likely refers to the 上士) why wouldn't he simply say 行於中士 ?

Thats a fair question. My theory is that TTC was garbled in transmission, and we reconstruct it back using the few surviving clues like that. Also, the chpt clearly consists of 2 paragraphs, both hierarchical, one having to do with 'hearing' and the other one with perceiving the 'nameless Dao'. That should tell us something.

I don't think you actually read this...!! The full paragraph is about King You trying to make his concubine laugh. So yeah she's laughing, but in delight.

Great. The details aside, i think thats how the ancient psyche differed from ours. There are quite a scholarly few works on historical psychology who demonstrate how the ancients were much more emotional in their body language. So great laughter is the indication that the memo hit home and will be carried out.

I'm not sure what 夙 means but it doesn't seem to mean 'awe'

夙

sù

【动】

肃敬〖respect〗

http://xh.5156edu.com/html3/9960.html

Why translate 道 as "hierarchy of command" ??

As we know Dao is not only a way but also a word. A word is a command. The next sentence 善始且善成 tells us that if this hierarchy is in place then that Dao-word takes place in a good beginning ' the nameless' on high; and ends well received as indicated by the great laughter (something clicked) at the bottom.

I looked this thread up because of some odd stuff I've been reading on the forum recently.

 

There seems to be some kind of weird superiority complex among many 'Taoists' on here.

Mighty Huns rising up in a dominant display of challenge-meeting and job-doing?

The best-educated of any generation?

 

If this is the Taoism, Taoism has nothing to do with LZ and ZZ. Almost everything they say is in direct opposition to these grand ideas about great power and knowledge.

'cultural colonialism' + 'wishful thinking'= 'fantasy of entitlement'

Before I bang the gavel on my participation in this discussion, does anyone have any evidence or idea that contradicts this interpretation?

Speak Now or Shut Up Forever!

All righty so this chpt. is about the chain of command. It is a bit garbled and overburdened with redundancies but its general idea shines through it all.

《道德經》: 41

上士聞道，勤能行於其中；

The upper level officials hear the command of Dao and propagate it to the middle level officials;

中士聞道，若存若亡；

The middle level officials receive that command and implement it inexplicitly (1);

下士聞道，大笑之。The lowest level officials receive that command from the middle level officials and react with great laughter of awe (2).

不笑不足以為道。

If there would not be any great laughter then it would indicate that Dao has not been propagated sufficiently (to reach the lowest level of management).

故建言有之：therefore this is the progression of Dao being put into words (to reach the upper level):

明道若昧；進道若退；夷道若纇；上德若谷；

太白若辱；廣德若不足；建德若偷；質真若渝；

大方無隅；大器晚成；大音希聲；大象無形；道隱無名。

The bright Dao without attributes <- the great tone without a sound <- the hidden Dao within the Nameless.

夫唯道，善始且善成。

In such a hierarchy of command – the goodness of the beginning will be passed through to the good end.

(1)

上天蒼蒼，若存若亡。《二十三年》

The great Heaven on high green and blue, both is and is not there.

聖人之道，若存若亡。《心術下 - Xin Shu II》

The Dao of sages, both is and is not there.

(2)

諸侯悉至，至而無寇，褒姒乃大笑。《周本紀》

The all officials-hou received this, … praised with great laughter.

望見簡子大笑；簡子曰：「子何笑？」對曰：「臣有夙笑。」《正諫》

…he looked at Jian-zi with great laughter; Jian-zi asked: why are you laughing?

Answered: your servant laughs with a laughter of awe.

In my experience; the "return" is also about something dying. Not necessarily the body, but what is this "something"?

thats a good question , also a very easy one. That something would be your human heart.

mean is, of course there was a class system. There's been one in every state throughout history, and there still is. That's how people work. But that doesn't mean that Taoism is, or Laozi was, concerned with implementing or maintaining some kind of ritualistic, birth-based hierarchy.

What about a meritocracy? R u cool with it?

孟子曰：「其詳不可得聞也。諸侯惡其害己也，而皆去其籍。然而軻也，嘗聞其略也。天子一位，公一位，侯一位，伯一位，子、男同一位，凡五等也。君一位，卿一位，大夫一位，上士一位，中士一位，下士一位，凡六等。

Mencius replied, 'The particulars of that arrangement cannot be learned, for the princes, disliking them as injurious to themselves, have all made away with the records of them. Still I have learned the general outline of them. The Son of Heaven constituted one dignity; the Gong one; the Hou one; the Bai one; and the Zi and the Nan each one of equal rank - altogether making five degrees of rank. The Ruler again constituted one dignity; the Chief Minister one; the Great Officers one; the Scholars of the First Class one; those of the Middle Class one; and those of the Lowest Class one - altogether making six degrees of dignity.

Mr Feng said that

 

But I kind of agree.

 

士 denotes a person of some regard, doesn't it?

i donno. but i was in many a class where a tier of students could not cope with the subject. Like crystallography оr tax accounting. Some guys would go blank in the eyes, some would curse and hiss, some would denigrate the usefullness of the subject. Never ever would anybody laugh. So i donno what so funny here.

All depends who is doing the laugh.....!?

Dusty says its a student being facetious. a C minus student obviously.

So, about that laugh. Is it a laugh of derision at Dao or a laugh of joy with Dao?

道德經:

上士聞道，勤而行之；中士聞道，若存若亡；下士聞道，大笑之。Scholars of the highest class, when they hear about the Dao, earnestly carry it into practice. Scholars of the middle class, when they have heard about it, seem now to keep it and now to lose it. Scholars of the lowest class, when they have heard about it, laugh greatly at it.

What about high and low De, or 3 types of 士 in TTC？Is not it the same idea?