Taoist Texts

this piece is obviously very poorly translated, both from Chinese and into english.

 

 

17. Symptoms disappearance.

 

A symptom (from Greek σύμπτωμα, "accident, misfortune, that which befalls", from συμπίπτω, "I befall", from συν- "together, with" and πίπτω, "I fall") is a departure from normal function or feeling which is noticed by a patient, reflecting the presence of an unusual state, or of a disease.Symptom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

very confusing.

Opening text of the tread in excellent and belong to Zhong Pai(central school) but it is used among some Quanzhen also and we see in Wu Liu Pai.

 

My opinion is that there is only one way of Nei Dan as this is the case of Wai Dan.Both methods are secret and have writen and oral instructions and you need transsmision from Master in lineage.

 

On the other hand I think we cant speak of only one method in Alchemy because there is also Wai Dan which is used as Way Of Immortality as Master Ge Hong clrealy show.

Dear Ormus,

perhaps you have not noticed that the text you like so much is directly contradicting what you and (Ge Hong) are saying about waidan. The text says all and any waidan is false. 

this piece is obviously very poorly translated, both from Chinese and into english.

17. Symptoms disappearance.

huh?

also it does not have any obvious point. What is it trying to say? That '24. Charity and donations." is not alchemy? Dudes, who in his right mind would say that charity is alchemy? This is a mess.

there is really no need to assign sacredness to a force.  

sure. until it comes onto your bod tangibly. people who try to deny or trivialise sacredness have never experienced it.

the sacred implement 神器 can refer either to this

Nine Tripods

or this

Wang Chuyi's alternate name was Yu Yangzi (it is also said he was named Yu Yang, with his assumed name as Quan Yangzi or Hua Yangzi). He was from Ninghai (present-day Muping, Shangdong Province). In the 7th year of Dading in the Jin Dynasty (1168 AD), he acknowledged Wang Chongyang as his master, lived in seclusion for a long time in the Yanxia Cave of Mt. Kunyu, and refined his bodily life for nine years. At the time he was called 'Iron Foot Gentleman'. In the 28th year of Dading (1188 AD), he accepted the call of the first Emperor Shizong of the Jin Dynasty, and went to the royal palace to host the ritual offerings of the Wanchun Festival ( 萬春節 Wanchun Jie ). In his life, Wang founded the Yushan Sect of the Complete Perfection Tradition ( 全真道 Quanzhen Dao ), and after his death the emperor conferred him the title 'Jade Sun Perfect Man Who Realizes Mystery and Universal Salvation ( 玉陽體玄廣度真人 Yuyang Tixuan Guangdu Zhenren ). 18. He was one of the Seven Perfect Ones of the North ( 北七真 Beiqizhen ), and served as the Head Daoist on imperial order.

http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Wang_Chuyi

I don't understand how anyone could put on real power without celibacy since every time I have nocturnal emissions I feel my bioenergy deplete..

those who advocate sex AND neidan are not concerned with reality. they are concerned with selling seminars.

Some Taoists do not know the difference between the two types of Jing. They think that to cultivate Jing is to cultivate semen, and if when there is desire semen is not emitted, it returns inside and adds to what is called a "fire of thoughts."  Not knowing that semen is a Post-celestial substance not only it will strengthen the fire, but in addition it can not be cultivated to generate Genuine Qi (zhen qi).  

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Hope this can clarify some issues.

Yes it does clarify something. 

What is clear that this man who calls himself a Quanzhen teacher isays that too much jing is an issue

It is also clear that in real Quanzhen not losing jing was a foremost requirement.

An adept who converted to Quanzhen took up celibate life

Somebody is wrong here.

This is a kind of sophistry, Opendao explicitly said that in Yuxianpai celibacy is required at some stages, so it is difficult that he himself was implying (or directly accusing) that his own school do not know what is doing.

And of course it is not the same to say that "it is required" (or something natural at some stage) than blindly state "it is a must". 

Dear Damdao

your opinion is important to us. Unfortunately, it is quite unclear what you are trying to say.

Is celibacy required to succeed in alchemy or not? Please pick one.

Yes, it is required.

No, it is not required.

Some teachers require; some teachers do not. Obviously they both can not be right. So which ones are the false teachers? Which ones are the true ones?

and to continue this line of thought...

if the celibacy is unnecessary then those who require it obviously do not know what they are doing. Basically to state that celibacy is not needed in some schools, is to accuse those who say 'it is a must' of being false.

On the other hand Zhang Boduan went on record saying 'ejaculate as much as you want' in so many words. Or may be he did not.

Your answer was some teachers require no celibacy.

Some teachers require; some teachers do not. Obviously they both can not be right. So which ones are the false teachers? Which ones are the true ones?

. But doesn't such way of thinking confine us in the same realm of illusion / reality opposition that Zhuangzi is trying to transcend?

Transcending means going somewhere. Where to was ZZ going?

 

So Confucious existed later, then Chuang Tzu? Can you point me in the direction of some reference points for their eras? (If they are not wikipedia, that is)

 

But yes, I am curious to know how much Confucianism works with Taoism.

Classical Daoism, Philosophical Daoism, Early Daoism: these terms are increasingly being seen as obsolescent by scholars in the last couple of decades. The general public – those who have heard of Daoism or have read a little bit of it – are largely unaware, despite the fact that for quite awhile writers have admitted that there were no “Daoists” in pre-Han China and that the two most famous “Daoists,” Laozi and Zhuangzi, surely never thought of themselves as Daoists. 

https://baopu81.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/classical-daoism-is-there-really-such-a-thing-part-1/

Required reading. Highly recommended.

I'm not sure I follow... 

This is the context in which LZ and Yin Xi met

The earliest certain reference to the present figure of Laozi is found in the 1st-century BCE Records of the Grand Historian collected by the historian Sima Qian from earlier accounts. In one account, Laozi was said to be a contemporary of Confucius during the 6th or 5th century BCE. His surname was Li and his personal name was Er or Dan. He was an official in the imperial archives and wrote a book in two parts before departing to the west. In another, Laozi was a different contemporary of Confucius titled Lao Laizi (老莱子)and wrote a book in 15 parts. In a third, he was the court astrologer Lao Dan who lived during the 4th-century BCE reign of DukeXian of Qin.^[20][21] The oldest text of the Tao Te Ching so far recovered was written on bamboo slips and dates to the late 4th century BCE.^[2]

According to traditional accounts, Laozi was a scholar who worked as the Keeper of the Archives for the royal court of Zhou.^[22] This reportedly allowed him broad access to the works of the Yellow Emperor and other classics of the time. The stories assert that Laozi never opened a formal school but nonetheless attracted a large number of students and loyal disciples. There are many variations of a story retelling his encounter with Confucius, most famously in the Zhuangzi.^[23][24]

He was sometimes held to have come from the village of Chu Jen in Chu.^[26] In accounts where Laozi married, he was said to have had a son named Zong who became a celebrated soldier. Many clans of the Li family trace their descent to Laozi, including the emperors of the Tang dynasty.^[27] According to the Simpkinses, while many (if not all) of these lineages are questionable, they provide a testament to Laozi's impact on Chinese culture.^[28]

The third story in Sima Qian states that Laozi grew weary of the moral decay of life in Chengzhou and noted the kingdom's decline. He ventured west to live as a hermit in the unsettled frontier at the age of 160. At the western gate of the city (or kingdom), he was recognized by the guard Yinxi. The sentry asked the old master to record his wisdom for the good of the country before he would be permitted to pass. The text Laozi wrote was said to be theTao Te Ching, although the present version of the text includes additions from later periods. In some versions of the tale, the sentry was so touched by the work that he became a disciple and left with Laozi, never to be seen again.^[29] In others, the "Old Master" journeyed all the way to India and was the teacher of Siddartha Gautama, the Buddha. Others claim he was the Buddha himself.^[23][30]

A seventh-century work, the Sandong Zhunang ("Pearly Bag of the Three Caverns"), embellished the relationship between Laozi and Yinxi. Laozi pretended to be a farmer when reaching the western gate, but was recognized by Yinxi, who asked to be taught by the great master. Laozi was not satisfied by simply being noticed by the guard and demanded an explanation. Yinxi expressed his deep desire to find the Tao and explained that his long study of astrology allowed him to recognize Laozi's approach. Yinxi was accepted by Laozi as a disciple. This is considered an exemplary interaction between Daoist master and disciple, reflecting the testing a seeker must undergo before being accepted. A would-be adherent is expected to prove his determination and talent, clearly expressing his wishes and showing that he had made progress on his own towards realizing the Tao.^[31]

The Pearly Bag of the Three Caverns continues the parallel of an adherent's quest. Yinxi received his ordination when Laozi transmitted the Daodejing, along with other texts and precepts, just as Taoist adherents receive a number of methods, teachings and scriptures at ordination. This is only an initial ordination and Yinxi still needed an additional period to perfect his virtue, thus Laozi gave him three years to perfect his Dao. Yinxi gave himself over to a full-time devotional life. After the appointed time, Yinxi again demonstrates determination and perfect trust, sending out a black sheep to market as the agreed sign. He eventually meets again with Laozi, who announces that Yinxi's immortal name is listed in the heavens and calls down a heavenly procession to clothe Yinxi in the garb of immortals. The story continues that Laozi bestowed a number of titles upon Yinxi and took him on a journey throughout the universe, even into the nine heavens. After this fantastic journey, the two sages set out to western lands of the barbarians. The training period, reuniting and travels represent the attainment of the highest religious rank in medieval Taoism called "Preceptor of the Three Caverns". In this legend, Laozi is the perfect Daoist master and Yinxi is the ideal Taoist student. Laozi is presented as the Tao personified, giving his teaching to humanity for their salvation. Yinxi follows the formal sequence of preparation, testing, training and attainment.^[32]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laozi#Historical_views

Is LZ material or immaterial here?   And how do you infer the meaning?

He arrives to Yin-xi in his material avatar, dictates him the Scripture of Western Ascension , then goes - all right now, buddy, i am out of here into the nameless immaterial realm of Dao to exist forever as a spirit-person. Having said that he transmogrifies his material body into a flash of the 5 colored light, leaving behind no material remains.After being called again by Xi he appears to him in his spiritual body one more time and then leaves for good:

Suddenly he disappeared. At that moment, the building was illuminated by a five-colored radiance, dark and brilliant.

Yin Xi went into the courtyard, prostrated himself and said, "Please, spirit being, appear one more time. Let me receive one more essential principle so that I may guard the Source (shouyuan).'

Yin Xi then looked up and saw Laozi's body suspended in mid-air several meters above the ground. He looked like a statue (jinren) [possibly "golden being"]. The apparition appeared and disappeared, vague and indistinct. His countenance had no constancy. Laozi then spoke, ....Finishing this, the apparition vanished.

Normally Komjaty is a brilliant translator.

Laozi said, "I will now revert my spirit and return to Namelessness [Dao]. I will abandon separate personhood and end my existence;

 

Yin Xi went into the courtyard, prostrated himself and said, "Please, spirit being, appear one more time.

 

Yin Xi then looked up and saw Laozi's body

 

. Laozi then spoke, 

I was disappointed to see Komjaty to distort the bolded phrase. If LZ is not a separate person and does not exist anymore then who is addressed, who appears and who replies in the consequent dialogue?

In fact, LZ in the original says: "Now i will cut my connection to my physical body and extinguish my materiality"

絕身滅有

 nothing about abandoning separate personhood or ending existence here. Both continue in the immaterial realm.

It certainly doesn't say "The ten thousand things die and are reincarnated as the same soul in a different vehicle"

 

If you want to look honestly at the structure, and prove that it is definitely about reincarnation, why not use ctext to find examples like you normally do?

I should have, unfortunately examples do not work for the taboo subject matters since people refuse to recognize what's actually there in black and white.

the Creator ... if He were to transform ... my spirit into a horse, ...以神為馬

If this is not the R-word then what is it?

.

Can anyone help?

 

How to tell someone has genuine LHBF? There is a teacher near me, I want to check his linage etc.

 

I don't know much about LHBF.

.

Any tips?

Certainly.

Ask him: "Do you know dantian rotation and if so, will you teach it to me please?'

If he goes 'Huh?' - then he is fake.

If he goes 'Sure!' - then he is fake.

If he goes 'Yes... but no, sorry' - then he is genuine.

In my opinion, you should have left it alone.

oh man, if i had a nickel...

For me,  物化 wuhua  is important. We cannot claim that either rememberance or forgetfulness are implied in the text; we can only infer. But we can figure out a more precise meaning for wuhua, and see if that helps.

 

Bear in mind that it literally means the changing/transformation of things/stuff:

 

物  =  things (as in wanwu, the ten thousand things)

化  =  change, transform, melt, die

 

and it seems to be a contraction of the structure 万物化生  "the ten thousand things die and are (re)born", i.e. the life cycle

Xcellent! So the things are reborn indeed. Now lets give it a bit of a thought. Re-born...born again. Same thing is born again. Not one thing dies and a different one is born, but the same. Otherwise its not re-birth.

now lets go back to OP and see what Herr Mueller is doing there

There is a Zhou and there is a butter­fly, so there is necessarily a distinction between them. This is called: the changing of things.

So, one demerit to Herr M. It must be rebirth of things not changing.

His second demerit is for translating 有分 as a distinction. He does not understand that 有分 means 'a chip of the same block' , previously same and now separate.

Now the story line of this puzzling fable is complete:

Zhou recalls his previous incarnation in a dream because the dream is a magical window on the past. He sees a butterfly as himself yet the butterfly does not have a recollection of being Zhou because it had not happen yet. Then he awakens and remembers him being the butterfly in the past reality, but wonders - was this dream a recollection of Zhou about the past reality OR, perhaps a present reality him being Zhou is a prescient dream of the self-aware butterfly about the future reality? Whatever it is, one thing is certain: whether in a dream or in a reality Zhou is a chip of the old butterfly block or in other words, a rebirth of it, whether in the butterfly's dream or in Zhou's reality...

 

How one sees the leopard thing  ..is a lovely simple idea, needing no forced confabulation t

《六國年表》[Also known as: "Records of the Grand Historian"]

 

二十一。馬生人。

 A horse birthed a human.

史記秦孝公二十一年有馬生人，昭王二十年牡馬生子而死。

 

In year 21 of Jiao-gong there was a horse birthing a human...

hey, it is lovely

this is an illustrative example as to how

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation#Jainism

 

The Jain texts postulate four gatis, that is states-of-existence or birth-categories, within which the soul transmigrates. The four gatis are: deva (demi-gods), manuṣya (humans),nāraki (hell beings) and tiryañca (animals, plants and micro-organisms).^[109]

 

Single-sensed souls, however, called nigoda,^[110] and element-bodied souls pervade all tiers of this universe. Nigodas are souls at the bottom end of the existential hierarchy. They are so tiny and undifferentiated, that they lack even individual bodies, living in colonies. According to Jain texts, this infinity of nigodas can also be found in plant tissues, root vegetables and animal bodies.^[111] Depending on its karma, a soul transmigrates and reincarnates within the scope of this cosmology of destinies. The four main destinies are further divided into sub-categories and still smaller sub-sub-categories. In all, Jain texts speak of a cycle of 8.4 million birth destinies in which souls find themselves again and again as they cycle within samsara.^[112]

note how it is the same what ZZ is doing here. He starts with protozoa endowed with a kernel of a living soul 種有幾 which then winds its way up the life hierarchy - from a bacteria to a plant to an insect to a mammal and finally a man who then (being the crown of creation) goes back (or up) into the mechanism.

All he's explicitly said, all that is only interpretable in one way, is that living things die and are born, coming out of and going back into the system.

 

Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

i dont think so...there is no word for 'death' in the original

種有幾，得水則為㡭，得水土之際則為蛙蠙之衣，生於陵屯則為陵舄，陵舄得鬱棲則為烏足，烏足之根為蠐螬，其葉為蝴蝶。胡蝶，胥也化而為蟲，生於灶下，其狀若脫，其名為鴝掇。鴝掇千日為鳥，其名曰乾餘骨。乾餘骨之沬為斯彌，斯彌為食醯。頤輅生乎食醯，黃軦生乎九猷，瞀芮生乎腐蠸。羊奚比乎不筍，久竹生青寧，青寧生程，程生馬，馬生人，人又反入於機。萬物皆出於機，皆入於機。

This is the important concept here, IMO.

a concept out of context is not a concept

In sure and certain hope of the resurrection to eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ, we commend to Almighty God our brother <name>; and we commit his body to the ground; earth to earth; ashes to ashes, dust to dust. The Lord bless him and keep him, the Lord make his face to shine upon him and be gracious unto him and give him peace. Amen.

http://www.kencollins.com/answers/question-27.htm

now its a concept

. And one might infer that he's talking of "past lives", but it's not explicit, and it'd be the only time he does that, wouldn't it?

here is another instance when ZZ is explicit about past lives and reincarnation

《至樂 - Perfect Enjoyment》

English translation: James Legge ^[?]

種有幾，得水則為㡭，得水土之際則為蛙蠙之衣，生於陵屯則為陵舄，陵舄得鬱棲則為烏足，烏足之根為蠐螬，其葉為蝴蝶。胡蝶，胥也化而為蟲，生於灶下，其狀若脫，其名為鴝掇。鴝掇千日為鳥，其名曰乾餘骨。乾餘骨之沬為斯彌，斯彌為食醯。頤輅生乎食醯，黃軦生乎九猷，瞀芮生乎腐蠸。羊奚比乎不筍，久竹生青寧，青寧生程，程生馬，馬生人，人又反入於機。萬物皆出於機，皆入於機。

Perfect Enjoyment:

The seeds (of things) are multitudinous and minute. On the surface of the water they form a membranous texture. When they reach to where the land and water join they become the (lichens which we call the) clothes of frogs and oysters. Coming to life on mounds and heights, they become the plantain; and, receiving manure, appear as crows' feet. The roots of the crow's foot become grubs, and its leaves, butterflies. This butterfly, known by the name of xu, is changed into an insect, and comes to life under a furnace. Then it has the form of a moth, and is named the Qu-duo. The Qu-duo after a thousand days becomes a bird, called the gan-yu-gu. Its saliva becomes the si-mi, and this again the shi-xi (or pickle-eater). The yi-lu is produced from the pickle-eater; the huang-kuang from the jiu-you; the mou-rui from the fu-quan. The yang-xi uniting with a bamboo, which has long ceased to put forth sprouts, produces the qing-ning; the qing-ning, the panther; the panther, the horse; and the horse, the man. Man then again enters into the great Machinery ..from which all things come forth (at birth), and which they enter at death.