Taoist Texts

It's secret because you're not allowed to talk about it

and, its not allowed to talk about it....because?

 

Yeah Idk man. I'd also like clarification there.

Cause if ming is the qi then xing can't be the shen and the jing. But maybe they're one and the same to an extent since they all melt into each other. And I think ming would for sure be the pre-heaven Jing if anything.

Yes we are in a territory where words do not have meanings, they blurr and overlap, conflict and negate each other. May be we will stay stuck here, may be we will get to clarity. Who knows?

 

Oh but of course the post-heaven energies are replenished by post-heaven things like food whereas the pre-heaven energies are only replenished by this secret method that's only taught in person. But at least it's available to the public now, should we seek it out.

If it is available how is it secret? Why was it not available earlier? Is that method the whole alchemy or a part of it? If a part , then is it a method or just an exercise like a zillion others? What is it 'to replenish'? Etc. Again, lots of undefined words.

Sure sure, me and my 'tude, my bad i am so very sorry.

 

Now lets stay on subject shall we?

 

 

"Post-Heaven Jing = sexual Jing-essense
Post-Heaven Qi = energy we get from breath and food
Post-Heaven Shen = mind, consciousness, sub-consciousness

What are those pre-Heaven ones? E.g. pre-H. Shen. How is it different from post-H Shen?

But I did. And you know, it makes no sense. Its just a bunch of claims with no rhyme or reason to it.

 

 

This is used as a prove that Building the Foundation phase has Qigong-like method, described as "Preserving the heart-mind". Again, knowing what this stage is about, by experiencing it directly, we are able to understand that"preserving the heart mind" is a result of the stage, but not a practice

This is just a bunch of meaningless words!

 

So could you please just answer the question, please? If you do know the answer, I mean.

This is why I dont come here often, people's attitude's. It has been answered in the thread I provided a link for. This has been discussed many times by myself and a few others. You have put me in no "spot", if you want the information it is there, if you have further questions about prenatal and postnatal jingqishen, then you can ask.

Yes, yes thank you very very much. What is the difference between "prenatal and postnatal jingqishen"?

Lao-zi, you mean that you do not know? Sorry to put you on the spot like this

Actually I have read about Nei kung from this certain book that no one in this forum wants to talk about at all,

 

Is it the Book That Shall Not Be Named?

"dont separate neidan from qigong too much" Why? There is definite separation between Neidan (Xiantian - pre natal) and Qigong (Houtian - post natal).

I like this. So..whats the key diff?

以為天下母。

 

No, this is not ‘the mother of universe’ of any kind, it is a political formula for the king’s strategy to ‘become the mother of Under Heaven’, that is still enjoy the privileged and passive position of a mother in a traditional family, free from active duties of a father.

 

故不可不軌大道以為天下母。《文子 - Wenzi》

 

the Son of Heaven ….That is why he can not but follow the rut of the great Dao to become the mother of the Under Heaven.

 

 

既得其母，

 

Once the king has become the mother of the Under Heaven (an emperor)

 

復知其子，

 

‘He needs to know his children. Who are the children of the emperor? Its his subjects, the people,

 

為民父母 《梁惠王上 - Liang Hui Wang I》

Mencius then said, …When a prince, being the parent of his people..

 

What does it mean ‘to know the people’?

 

高辛生而神靈，自言其名。普施利物，不於其身。聰以知遠，明以察微。順天之義，知民之急。仁而威，惠而信，修身而天下服。取地之財而節用之，撫教萬民而利誨之，歷日月而迎送之，明鬼神而敬事之。其色郁郁，其德嶷嶷。其動也時，其服也士。帝嚳溉執中而遍天下，日月所照，風雨所至，莫不從服。《五帝本紀 - Annals of the Five Emperors》

 

….knew the people's needs. Humane yet dignified, kind yet truthful; he practised self-culture and all men submitted to him. He secured the revenue of the land, and spent it economically. He governed and instructed all his subjects, and they profited by the instruction. He made a calendar of the days and months past as well as future. He knew all about spirits, and worshipped them respectfully. …There was no one on whom the sun and moon shone, or on whom the rain and wind blew, who was not devoted to him.

 

 

 

Apparently knowing the needs and wants of the people makes the ‘mother of the Under Heaven’ secure 守 and ensures the personal safety of the emperor, which the TTC is all about.

 

守其母，沒其不殆。

Fantastic. Now for some historical backdrop

 

King Zhuangxiang of Qin (281–247 BC), personal names Yiren and Zichu, was a ruler of the Qin state during the third century BC in the Warring States Period of ancient China.^[1]

Life[edit]

Yiren was born to Lord Anguo, the second son and heir apparent of King Zhaoxiang, and Lord Anguo's concubine Lady Xia. He was chosen to serve as a hostage in the Zhao. In Handan (the capital of Zhao), he met a merchant, Lü Buwei, who felt that Yiren was extraordinary and had the potential to become the king of Qin in the future. Lü Buwei treated Yiren well and presented his concubine Lady Zhao to Yiren. Lady Zhao later bore Yiren a son, Ying Zheng.

In the meantime, through bribes and machinations, Lü Buwei helped Yiren return to Qin. He also successfully persuaded Lord Anguo's primary spouse, Lady Huayang, who was childless, to adopt Yiren as her son, thereby making Yiren become Lord Anguo's legitimate heir apparent. As Lady Huayang was a native of the Chu state, she renamed Yiren to "Zichu" (lit. "son of Chu"). Upon the death of King Zhaoxiang in 251 BC, Lord Anguo ascended the throne and became historically known as "King Xiaowen", but died in the following year just three days after his coronation. Zichu succeeded his father as the king of Qin and became historically known as "King Zhuangxiang of Qin". He named Lü Buwei as his chancellor, Lady Zhao as his queen consort, and Ying Zheng as his crown prince.

King Zhuangxiang died in 247 after reigning for three years. He was succeeded by Ying Zheng, who eventually unified China through a series of wars against the other six major states, established the Qin Dynasty in 221 BC, and became historically known as "Qin Shi Huang" (First Emperor of Qin).

 

Leading with a bold assumption that TTC is somehow reflecting similar goings-on in the real world on this planet, lets analyze the technical terminology in line 1.

 

1. 天下有始，以為天下母。既知其母，復知其子，既知其子，復守其母，沒其不殆。

 

term by term:

 

天下

 

No, it is not ‘universe’, it is an empire

 

天下有始

 

No, it is not ‘universe has a beginning’, it is ‘to become a founder of an empire’ as in the tale of king Zi-chu’s son above

 

秦王懷貪鄙之心，行自奮之智，不信功臣，不親士民。廢王道而立私愛，焚文書而酷刑法，先詐力而後仁義，以暴虐為天下始。

《新書 - Xin Shu》

[Western Han (206 BC - 9)] Jia Yi

 

The king of Qin harbored low and greedy heart, acted inspired by own wisdom, did not trust the meritorious ministers, was not paternal with officials and the people. He abandoned the Dao of kings and set up egotistical attachments, burned the books, legalized torture, first used cunning and force, then humanity and duty, thus tyrannically becoming the founder of the Under Heaven.

Yes... let's discuss it

 

As you have mentioned 'code words' in the past... here, IMO, they represent:

Mother as the beginning = Dao

Son = Ten thousand things

 

Ch.4:

talks of Dao as the ancestor to the Ten Thousand and then questions whether Dao is 'son' to anything else?

 

Ch. 16: (partial)

Being in accord with Nature, he is in accord with Tao;

Being in accord with Tao, he is eternal,

And his whole life is preserved from harm. -- Yutang

 

Yes thats all well and good. To me a statement makes sense when the question 'how' is answered.

 

"Being in accord with Tao, he is eternal, "

 

This sounds just dandy. I want to be eternal too. I wanna know how. What did 'he' do for that? Jumping jacks, cucumber diet, satan worship, what?

天下有始，以為天下母。既知其母，復知其子，既知其子，復守其母，沒其不殆。

 

天下有始: The beginning of the world

以為天下母: was considered to be the root of all things.

Tautology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology

既知其母: If we've discovered its root

how?

復知其子， then we'll recognized all things

huh?

既知其子， If we recognized all things

復守其母， and held on to its root,

how?

 

沒其不殆。Then, there will be no danger throughout life.

why?how?

To wrap up this very educational chapter, lastly lets try to make sense of the first sentence.

 

1. 天下有始，以為天下母。既知其母，復知其子，既知其子，復守其母，沒其不殆。

 

Seemingly unconnected to the rest because it is usually translated as

 

“(The Dao) which originated all under the sky is to be considered as the mother of them all.
When the mother is found, we know what her children should be. When one knows that he is his mother's child, and proceeds to guard (the qualities of) the mother that belong to him, to the end of his life he will be free from all peril.”

 

What does this even mean? This is incomprehensible.

, then the plugs must be used for the ears.

this is not bad , good one CD

 

 

The nine-aperture jade plugs were used to cover the nine human apertures (ears, eyes, mouth, nostrils, anus and genital) for the purpose of stopping the "spirit" from getting out

http://arts.cultural-china.com/en/32Arts4848.html

 

 

According to some investigators, green or blue earplugs were related only to the gods, whilst turquoise ones were used exclusively during religious rituals.

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/ask-us/aztec-earrings/kids

But (as I'm aware) there are a couple of other chapters that talk of knowledge being potentially harmful:

 

Yes i thought that too. Now it dawns on me that TTC means the king's knowledge not the people's.

Look at the GD slips -- not the transcription, but the original characters.

 

 

 

 

閟 shut

丌

門 door/gate

賽 ? could be one of 2 characters; sai with 贝 on the bottom originally referred to giving alms at temple

丌

兌 ? note the presence of 辶; and in ch.54, 兌 with no 辶. This means something different.

 

I am all for GD, but i have to check it agains the nomenclature in circulation at the time.

 

 

 

 

故先王聖人為之不然：知夫為人主上者，不美不飾之不足以一民也，不富不厚之不足以管下也，不威不強之不足以禁暴勝悍也，故必將撞大鐘，擊鳴鼓，吹笙竽，彈琴瑟，以塞其耳；必將錭琢刻鏤，黼黻文章，以塞其目；必將芻豢稻粱，五味芬芳，以塞其口。 《荀子 - Xunzi》

 

That is why the previous kings and the sages … to the great gongs, drums and flutes about to play – blocked their ears; to elaborate carvings, brilliant writing – blocked their eyes; to aromatic grass-fed meat, to delicious 5 tastes – blocked their mouths.

 

i always said that ruists were more taoists than Huang-lao. its just the nomeclature differed a bit while LZ used the collective 兌 , ruists enumerated the organs.

 

HSG said the 'doors' are the eyes and the 'gate' is the mouth...

 

Moss says in his notes:

The second part of the stanza is a reprise of the theme of keeping the people from knowledge. Following Heshang gong, the word dui, “interaction,” is usually taken to mean the eyes (or by extension, the senses), which receive the outside world; the gates and doors are the mouth, and perhaps hearing as well. These lines may also refer to wider commercial and political intercourse. In the Huainanzi, sealing in is related to yin, opening out to yang.

They are both right to an extent but still no cigar. HSG makes TTC intended for a king to be a neigong manual for the joe-sixpack. But it does not work that way. You know quod licet Jovi non licet bovi.

Moss missed by a mile attributing the 52 to be about keeping the people from knowledge. That makes no sense cause the people are never interested in knowledge per se , but only as the means to the end of upward mobility.

Well... the original was something very different. The GD is short and to the point:

 

 

閟丌門 Shut their gates,

賽丌兌 Encourage their religion,

冬身不嵍 And you shall live easily;

 

The phrase "This opium you feed your people" appeared earlier in 1797 in Marquis de Sade's text L'Histoire de Juliette and Novalis's "[R]eligion acts merely as an opiate" around the same time. The full quote from Karl Marx translates as: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people". Often quoted, the interpretation of the metaphor in its context has received much less attention. ^[1]

Sure. Speech goes a long way. Remember 道 speech also has 辶 辵.

. what does the 辶 signify?

this one is easy. 辶兌 just means to speak 说, meaning the king must refrain from speaking. I see the evolution of the character as something that combined seeing and speaking . Compare the modern usage of 'go see smbody ...or see eye to eye with somebody' as synonymous with speaking. When ancients were praying they were actually seeing spirits, no? That was in jiaguwen times. Later on dui and shuo went their separate ways but dui was still used in lieu of shuo. Problem solved.

Look at the GD slips -- not the transcription, but the original characters.

 

 

sur. u have a link? tnx

 

 

Why aren't 10 million Africans moving to China?

oh believe me they are trying

oh yeah..absolutely. Fantastic is the right word..for us. But it was quite real for them. The ancients were a different race.

 

Homer describes a more-than-natural light around the heads of heroes in battle,^[2] .......

Further afield, Sumerian religious literature frequently speaks of melam (loaned into Akkadian asmelammu), a "brilliant, visible glamour which is exuded by gods, heroes, sometimes by kings, and also by temples of great holiness and by gods' symbols and emblems."^[5]

 

In Asian art, the nimbus is often imagined as consisting not just of light, but of flames. This type seems to first appear in Chinese bronzes of which the earliest surviving examples date from before 450.^[9]

 

The distinction between the alternative terms in English is rather unclear. The oldest term in English is "glory", the only one available in theMiddle Ages,

 

Allright, we have a puzzler on our hands here, people!

 

《道德經》: 52

1. 天下有始，以為天下母。既知其母，復知其子，既知其子，復守其母，沒其不殆。

2. 塞其兌，閉其門，終身不勤。開其兌，濟其事，終身不救。

3. 見小曰明，守柔曰強。

4. 用其光，復歸其明，無遺身殃；是為習常。

 

 

 

Lets start with (2) where the key term is dui 兌 which is understood as openings of the senses, but that’s a derivative meaning. As this sole passage 《損兌法靈蓍》

from 《鬼谷子 - Gui Gu Zi》shows, the initial meaning of dui was ‘mental active concentration showing through in demeanor’ that needs to be diminished 損

 

兌者，知之也；損者，行之也。損之兌之，物有不可者，聖人不為之辭。

Concentration is knowledge, diminishing is the conduct of it. By diminishing the concentration …the sages distance themselves from things.

 

So (2) would be

 

2. 塞其兌，閉其門，終身不勤。開其兌，濟其事，終身不救。

Stop the concentration, stay behind closed gates, never get involved in affairs. If you deploy your concentration, add affairs, there will be no saving you.

 

(3) is the recommendation to see the things when they barely start to develop, and to be strong with the soft power

3. 見小曰明，守柔曰強。

See the small to be wise. Keep yourself weak to be strong.

 

The (4) introduces 2 technical terms 其光 the glory of the king and the 其明 inner gods-ancestor of the king.

 

其光 as the glory/honor exhibited in kingly behavior is explained by this passages:

 

堯、舜之道皇兮，夏、殷、周之道將兮，而以延其光

The dao of Yao and Shun was august!
The dao of the Xia, Yin, and Zhou was magnificent!
Thus their glory lives on!

《孝至卷第十三 - The Priority of Filial Devotion》

 

 

為之而行，動之而光者，其德乎？或曰：「知德者鮮，何其光？」曰：「我知，為之；不我知亦為之，厥光大矣。必我知而為之，光亦小矣。」

Those who handle affairs capably and display honor through their actions—do they not have de?

《問神卷第五 - Asking About Shen》

 

While the meaning of 其明 is forgotten and is treated as ‘intelligence’, it is still preserved in 《大戴禮記 - Da Dai Li Ji》

 

開先祖之府，取其明法，

Open the ancestral temple and take their (ancestors) bright law

 

Or in the name of the ancestral temple – The Temple of Brightness 明堂。

 

The unusual term 習常 is explained in 《韓非子 - Hanfeizi》

 

群臣守職，百官有常，因能而使之，是謂習常。

The host of ministers keep their titles, the 100 official have constant positions, due to that the king can use those – this is called repeatable constancy.

 

Therefore the (4) is

 

4. 用其光，復歸其明，無遺身殃；是為習常。

Deploy your glory based on always visiting the advice of your ancestors, then you will be safe to the end, this is called repeatable constancy.

 

The difference is that legalists based the governance on keeping the duties of officials unchanged while Huang-Lao based governance on consulting the ancestors.

Interesting.

 

I see what you're getting at, in terms of "block the holes", but I don't think the GD characters are "block" or "hole", so....