Taoist Texts

Wow.

 

Sorry for the bluntness, but... if you want an honest, logical, fruitful discussion, I think you need to stop selectively ignoring things you don't like.

no problemo

What you're saying:

 

1. Doesn't make sense. A ruler who hides himself from the masses also leads by example? How? How does this work????

A. The chain of command is a pyramid king on top - masses below no day-light in between.

B. De - De is a magical force that binds the nation together

2. Is not supported by the text.

 

 

常使民無知無欲

Constantly makes the people without knowledge and without desire

I believe i addressed that in the previous post

I'd forgotten about this!

 

TT... in the other thread you said I had my interpretation backwards: looks like it's the same disagreement 4 months later!

 

We could go back and forth all day, and in the end there's no way to prove who 其 is referring to -- the ruler or the ruled. So I don't have much hope that we'll come to an agreement...

 

I'll just point out a couple of thoughts I've had since last time we discussed this:

He is clearly talking about, again, ruling the masses. By suggesting that one should 使 cause the people to stop fighting over rare things and stealing from each other, he is suggesting interfering. By suggesting that a ruler does anything at all -- by even acknowledging that there is a ruler -- he is acknowledging that some interference will occur.

 

Why, in the middle, would he suddenly start talking about feeding himself and weakening his own ambition? And then, right after that, talk yet again about 使民無知無欲 causing the people to have no knowledge and no desire

 

Also, to wei wuwei can be interpreted as to force non-forcing, or enact non-action

Your's is a correct approach - analysing this statement as a three part essay, yet you start with a wrong assumption reading an actor into the first part. There is no 'one should' there.

1. 不尚賢，使民不爭；不貴難得之貨，使民不為盜；不見可欲，使心不亂。

2. 是以聖人之治，虛其心，實其腹，弱其志，強其骨。

3. 常使民無知無欲。使夫¹知者不敢為也。為無為，則無不治。

(1) is a statement of a fact of human nature: no cunning - no strife; no valuables - no thieving; no desirbles - no trouble.

(2) is how to make it so

(3) is the result 常使 'if constantly so' Remember the constant Dao in chpt 1? 為無為 act without action, lead by example. Or as Kongzi- said to the king above

季康子問政於孔子曰：「如殺無道，以就有道，何如？」孔子對曰：「子為政，焉用殺？子欲善，而民善矣.

Ji Kang asked Confucius about government, saying, "What do you say to killing the unprincipled for the good of the principled?" Confucius replied, "Sir, in carrying on your government, why should you use killing at all? Let your evinced desires be for what is good, and the people will be good.

... your translation suggests the Way; it starts with the ruler.

Excellent Dawei, excellent indeed. Yes it does.

or as Kong-zi, the ever true taoist says:

季康子問政於孔子曰：「如殺無道，以就有道，何如？」孔子對曰：「子為政，焉用殺？子欲善，而民善矣。君子之德風，小人之德草。草上之風，必偃。

You want to be good, and the people will be good. King's De is wind and the peoples De is grass. Wind on the grass - the grass will bend with it.

Yes, it is his subjects.

 

The classical interpretations:

"Emptying the hearts(mind)" means keeping the people educated and purify the mind from malicious thoughts.

"Stuff bellies" means keep the people well fed, so, they won't have to deal with hunger to prevent them from stealing.

'feeding people' is non-action? doesnt sound non-active to me

classical interpreters dont know what they r talking about

Riyue, I think... this isn't the place for discussing individual character transcriptions in specific chapters. Perhaps we can talk about it here:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/17082-ttc-study-chapter-19-of-the-tao-teh-ching/page-4

 

 

 

 

The ruler does; he makes sure others don't. For if others don't, the ruler doesn't need to do so much.

 

It's all right there in ch.3...

well at this point i will just repeat that you got it exactly backwards and leave at that without argumentation since that would be OT here. We can reprise it in any chapter topic if you wish.

I dont think so, for that would be doing.

In the context of a couple of chapters, though, and assuming we are either concerned with Laozi's idea of wuwei or we more generally want to use the Laozi to help us in defining wuwei as a broader Daoist concept,

 

...

是以聖人之治虛其心實其腹 The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies

弱其志強其骨 by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones;

whose hearts and bellies? if his subjects - then how do the wise do it?

Shen Dao first employed the idea as 無事... Laozi seems to borrow this idea.

What is Shen Dao?

The Laozi as a Manual of Manipulation and Control

Yes it is and its a good thing. Jia you Dusty!

Curious that China and the US have developed similar divides.

The sound of Kaa-ching is The Great And Universal Divider.

That whole thing sounded Confucian to me.

24. According to the Confucius Genealogy Compilation Committee, he has 2 million known and registered descendants, and there are an estimated 3 million in all.

https://biographies.knoji.com/25-interesting-facts-about-confucius-a-great-chinese-philosopher/

《禮記 - Liji》

[Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)]

38 曾子問: Zengzi Wen:

曾子問曰：「葬引至於堩，日有食之，則有變乎？且不乎？」

Zeng-zi asked, 'At a burial, when the bier has been drawn to the path (leading to the place), if there happen an eclipse of the sun, is any change made or not?'

孔子曰：「昔者吾從老聃助葬於巷黨，及堩，日有食之，老聃曰：『丘！止柩，就道右，止哭以聽變。』既明反而後行。曰：『禮也。』反葬，而丘問之曰：『夫柩不可以反者也，日有食之，不知其已之遲數，則豈如行哉？』老聃曰：『諸侯朝天子，見日而行，逮日而舍奠；大夫使，見日而行，逮日而舍。夫柩不早出，不暮宿。見星而行者，唯罪人與奔父母之喪者乎！日有食之，安知其不見星也？且君子行禮，不以人之親痁患。』吾聞諸老聃云。」

Confucius said, 'Formerly, along with Lao Dan, I was assisting at a burial in the village of Xiang, and when we had got to the path, the sun was eclipsed. Lao Dan said to me, "Qiu, let the bier be stopped on the left of the road; and then let us wail and wait till the eclipse pass away. When it is light again, we will proceed." He said that this was the rule. When we had returned and completed the burial, I said to him, "In the progress of a bier there should be no returning. When there is an eclipse of the sun, we do not know whether it will pass away quickly or not, would it not have been better to go on?" Lao Dan said, "When the prince of a state is going to the court of the son of Heaven, he travels while he can see the sun. At sun-down he halts, and presents his offerings (to the spirit of the way). When a Great officer is on a mission, he travels while he can see the sun, and at sun-down he halts. Now a bier does not set forth in the early morning, nor does it rest anywhere at night; but those who travel by star-light are only criminals and those who are hastening to the funeral rites of a parent. When there is an eclipse of the sun, how do we know that we shall not see the stars? And moreover, a superior man, in his performance of rites, will not expose his relatives to the risk of distress or evil." This is what I heard from Lao Dan.'

(An important proof of Lao-zi to Kong-zi transmission)

als our dear friend Lao-zi choose to drop out of discussion when faced with a simple question. Seems they dont like questions much, these Neidan folk.

Whatever.....!!! Chi kung, Tai Ji Quan, Shiaolin Kung Fu and so far......etc.

oh those 傍门

So which is "better"? To allow water to take its natural destructive path or to regulate the water to benefit all?

I think what Mencius meant was that if you regulate water according to its nature (does not matter whether we view it as destructive or nourishing) then and only then that would benefit all. And if you go counter that nature there will be no lasting benefits.

I qioted him largely to show that this chapter 8 was not metaphorical but a litera discussion of water projects, just as Mencius' dialog is.

A master who teaches his students with the best of the art.....!?

what art would that be for example?

The master will care for the student like his own child.

a master of what exactly would do that?

if it works for southern people to say that their method is completely pre birth,

but ...

southern people do not say that

northern entrepreneurs do

Brook Ziporyn

"Nonetheless, whenever I come to a clustered tangle, realizing that it is difficult to do anything about it, I instead restrain myself as if terrified, until my seeing comes to a complete halt. My activity slows, and the blade moves ever so slightly. Then all at once, I find the ox already dismembered at my feet like clumps of soil scattered on the ground. I retract the blade and stand there gazing at my work arrayed all around me, dawdling over it with satisfaction. Then I wipe off the blade and put it away."

 

The king said, "Wonderful! From hearing the cook's word I have learned how to nourish life!"

In this translation I do not understand the logic.

" I have learned how to nourish life!"

How exactly ?

白圭曰：「丹之治水也愈於禹。」 Gaozi II:

Bai Gui said, 'My management of the waters is superior to that of Yu.'

Mencius replied, 'You are wrong, Sir. Yu's regulation of the waters was according to the laws of water. He therefore made the four seas their receptacle, while you make the neighbouring States their receptacle. Water flowing out of its channels is called an inundation. Inundating waters are a vast waste of water, and what a benevolent man detests. You are wrong, my good Sir.'

Do nothing, and allow everything to be done.

except paying for groceries

The one who is teaching you, the so called master-guru. It's supposed to be a trustful relationship, because if he is damaging you, should fix you. It's about your health and life ultimately.

Ah, ok, i understand, thanks. Well may be this is relevant:

, it's just because someone should assume a lot of responibility,

who is that someone? what responsibility exactly?

It's secret because you're not allowed to talk about it to those who don't know it, but it's not secret because you're allowed to learn it

Copyright .. grants the creator of an original work exclusive rights to its use and distribution, .., with the intention of enabling the creator to receive compensation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

thats why