Taoist Texts
-
Content count
3,931 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
19
Posts posted by Taoist Texts
-
-
2. back up your ideas with real explanations (rather than "I can't explain because you're too stupid/ignorant to get it")
as a total aside normally for me that would be a reasonable explanation. I am all of the above. Just saying.
-
You just reflected your own state of ignorance as the people who being manipulated, entanglement actual brings true answer. Think about it well.
Saoshan please do not take it personally but what you say does not make any sense. Sorry again.
-
????
it can also damage the nerves and capillaries in the legs. Overdoing zhan zhuang is one of the reasons why a lot of martial artists suffer leg and knee problems.
https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/che-style-prohibitions/
“The 8 Prohibitions of Che style Xingyi by Prof Che Xiangqian"
I've been standing in zhan zhuang for about 4 months now, starting with 5 minutes in wu chi and ramping up to 20-30 minutes a day in one or more early postures (standing pole, etc.) after doing Yang style taiji for seven years. The benefits from zhan zhuang have thus far been subtle but very clear, and I hope to continue Yi Quan studies. However, after a month or so, my left ankle began hurting, particularly during Rollback positions in TC. I adjusted my stance in zhan zhuang to put more weight on my right foot after checking out my hips in a mirror -- this resulted in slightly less pain in my left ankle combined with fresh new pain in my right. What gives?
http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/25/1280.html?1231026564
causing damage to abdominal nerves and muscles, constricted chest, and dizziness due to hyperventilation or asphyxia.
http://www.slideshare.net/kayo1686/zhan-zhuang
How do you cope with pain and inconvenient feelings, which arises when practicing Zhan Zhuang, Standing Meditation or Tai Chi? I know that the body can be damaged if severe pain in the knees and in the spine is felt and ignored. The kind of pain which i am referring to is more moderate but it is a big burden for me. I suffer.
http://taoistsex.tribe.net/thread/2570ef22-fe76-454d-ba7e-e52481ce7c67
....and i am not even gonna go into psycho problems it may cause.
-
My question is where should I start, "
standing is dangerous. you better start with sitting
-
. The chinese never do.
Here is the progression they laid out for themselves, lets see if we can follow whats going on:
No, we can't.
-
Taoist texts,id like to supplement dustybeijings response about highest knowlege , Imo, if knowlege is a progression of explanation, to larger and larger principles, one gets to a point where one doesnt really know the answer. Knowing that, is just one more step beyond being wrong, and thats the end of the progression. So he Zz feels that simply allowing the doubt is the wiser stance..agnosticism.
Hey Stosh
yes what you say is imminently reasonable and for any normal person it would be wise to stop investigating any further once the limit of human knowledghe is apparently reached. Also you used the word progression fortuitiously, for the ancient chinese also spoke about the process of knowledge expansion in terms of a progression. The only difference is - they did not stop. The chinese never do.
Here is the progression they laid out for themselves, lets see if we can follow whats going on:
[Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)] [Also known as: 《小戴禮記》, "The Classic of Rites"]
大學之道，....。知止而後有定，定而後能靜，靜而後能安，安而後能慮，慮而後能得。
What the Great Learning teaches, is ...
1 Knowledge (the intellect) stops,
2 the object of pursuit is then determined;
3 and, that being determined,
4 a calm unperturbedness may be attained to.
5To that calmness there will succeed a tranquil repose.
6 In that repose there may be careful deliberation,
7 and that deliberation will be followed by the attainment of the desired end.
So its indeed a 7 step progression as to how to go beyond the limits of intellect and know what is desired to know.
Also a note to Dusty: that 至 in ZZ, is probably not "the highest", its the attainment.
-
2
-
1
-
-
So mean!This is why I prefer the use of "understanding", which you so delicately removed
sorry)
Not just knowing of a fact, but real understanding. I might interpret it as
"One who understands that he cannot understand everything possesses the highest understanding"
This is actually not bad, this interpretation is fairly close to Confucious and Socrates but i would say here ZZ means stopping the intelectual process and using the extrasensory cognition. It is proved by a quote from the butcher story
Now I deal with it in a spirit-like manner, and do not look at it with my eyes. The use of my senses is discarded*, and my spirit acts as it wills.
use of my senses is discarded=knowledge stops in the original
-
1
-
-
You are mean.
but not lean.
again "knowledge stops" is not even english. What is it to stop - do not enquire, do not think it over, do not look?
-
3
-
-
故知止其所不知，至矣
Therefore knowledge/understanding that stops at what it does not know/understand is the highest
Knowledge stops. At what it does not know.
This does not make sense. All known things were previously unknown. How would anything be known if knowledge would stop at every unknown?
And why it is the highest?
-
1
-
1
-
-
Is philosophical Daoism (daojia) agnostic?
The title of the topic is pretty much self-explanatory. I know that religious Daoism (daojiao) contains a pantheon of supernaturalistic entities. Is daojia inherently agnostic, beyond the often supernaturalistically interpreted concept of the Dao itself? To me the word "Dao" has
no supernaturalistic elements,
Apparently you define agnosticism as not believing in supernatural entities. If so, and if by daojia we mean writings of Lao-zi and Zhuang-zi, then the answer is no since both these writings contain numerous mentions of supernatural. Of course modern agnostics try to dissmiss those as metaphors, basically saying that words do not mean what they mean;).
So (if words means what they supposed to mean) the answer is no.
-
1
-
1
-
-
Anyway.. there are enough laowai who believe in an afterlife, in an eternal soul, and enough Chinese who don't, that we don't need to assume that all non-Chinese are reading it wrong simply because none of them believe in eternal existence.
Did ZZ believe in afterlife?
-
Well now I understand what your understanding is.
But claiming unequivocalness seems to me to be misguided, especially when it pertains to ZZ.
If you don't cherry-pick (like a misguided Christian ....
http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/perfect-enjoyment#n2833
"In death there are not (the distinctions of) ruler above and minister below. There are none of the phenomena of the four seasons. Tranquil and at ease, our years are those of heaven and earth. No king in his court has greater enjoyment than we have."
So if we're going to be claiming "no two ways about it"...well, there are at least 2 ways about it. But Zhuangzi's writing points more frequently to accepting death, not attempting to overcome Heaven, not living longer than anyone else.
Well, coming back to your OP, as to words being traps. This is a good example as how even such a basic word as "death" has different meaning for a modern materialist vs. ZZ.
The laowai reads 'death' and understands an inevitable annihilation to be accepted stoically. While ZZ obviously means a comfortable post-mortem eternal existence. Go figure.
-
So if we're going to be claiming "no two ways about it"...well, there are at least 2 ways about it. But Zhuangzi's writing points more frequently to accepting death, not attempting to overcome Heaven, not living longer than anyone else.
I agree. My post refered to 'entering Heaven' specifically for a chosen few. For the rest of mankind ZZ offers quietism.
-
2
-
-
elucidate what you mean by "entering Heaven"
Sure. Here is an inequivocal passage:
Huang-Di twice bowed low with his head to the ground, and said, 'In Kong Tong-zi we have an example of what is called Heaven.'
The other said, 'Come, and I will tell you: (The perfect Dao) is something inexhaustible, and yet men all think it has an end; it is something unfathomable, and yet men all think its extreme limit can be reached. He who attains to my Dao, if he be in a high position, will be one of the August ones, and in a low position, will be a king. He who fails in attaining it, in his highest attainment will see the light, but will descend and be of the Earth. At present all things are produced from the Earth and return to the Earth. Therefore I will leave you, and enter the gate of the Unending, to enjoy myself in the fields of the Illimitable. I will blend my light with that of the sun and moon, and will endure while heaven and earth endure...they will all die, and I will abide alone!'
So there is no two way about it. Entering Heaven or 'arriving at Dao' means becoming a supernatural, eternal being. Its right there in black and white in ZZ.
and what 忘言 has to do with it?
Its one of the techical steps leading to Heaven. Forget self (the words are part thereof) and soar up.
-
You know I'm happy to belabour most issues
By essentially I mean fundamentally -- that is, though Moeller's writing style, and his claims that his interpretation is the only correct one, is somewhat arrogant, his fundamental understanding does not really differ from yours or mine -- he just puts it in a different way.
"It is rather, that to "get the meaning" or "idea" of the Dao means "to be satisfied" — and that this satisfaction consists in having nothing in one's mind, in having no specific "meanings" or "ideas." Thus, I will argue, that "to get the meaning" (de yi) in a Daoist sense means, paradoxically, to be perfectly content (de yi) by no longer having any mental contents."
So arriving at Dao means just this pun "to be perfectly content (de yi) by no longer having any mental contents."
Ok. Can we press Herr Mueller for more ,,,,content? Like what does this contentlessly content chap do? Just sits there till the fat lady sings?Or what?
-
I sense that you don't agree that they really are saying the same thing, though.
I dont but was not sure if you are interested in belabouring this issue. For the discussion to be productive we need to agree on the critera of sameness. Are apple the same as oranges? They are both fruit you know, essentially the same thing.
More specifically what Moeller and his ilk do is parrot endlessly and boringly the clueless, self-serving cultural colonisators of 1950s such as MIrca Eliade and Jung
the "desire" of the sage is to be without desires, namely to be without intentions, wishes, and ideas. (Moeller)
Gosh, its been 70 years, can't these grant-eaters come up with one new idea already?
As to whether the
"In order to arrive at the Dao, one has to go beyond both words and ideas," says Moeller
and
"The man who has forgotten himself is he of whom it is said that he has entered Heaven," says Zhuangzi.
is the same, to answer that question we need to press Herr Moeller for details. What does it mean to 'arrive at Dao' according to him? He writes reams and reams rehashing stale simulacra from past 3 centuries of western misunderstandings but never says anything concrete. What do you think it does mean according to him?
Also.. now you're going to have to explain the relevance of an ancient French cartoon....
its a simulacrum of a wabbit;) real wabbits are not like that, its a fantasy. So are western ideas on chinese Dao. Yet the warlike wabbit on the picture and the plush real wabbit both look kinda alike. So there are the same. Essentially.
-
Are we not talking of the same thing in different ways?
Darkstar, via Moeller, suggests that "Fishnets" is not about forgetting words and concentrating on ideas, as some have translated it, but about forgetting both words and ideas to arrive at one's desire: no desire.
"In order to arrive at the Dao, one has to go beyond both words and ideas," says Moeller
You, accompanied by Mr Lv, are suggesting that it is about forgetting not just words, but also things and self.
"The man who has forgotten himself is he of whom it is said that he has entered Heaven," says Zhuangzi.
Isn't this essentially the same?
Yes, taken in isolation Moelers statement does sound essentially the same, you are quite right.
-
I cannot forget myself. I cannot forget my thoughts when they arise spontaneously.
why would u? u r sitting pretty as it is. we all should be that lucky.
-
1
-
-
You know I'm a bit slow... could you explain why it's important in relation to the fishnets?
i am not a speedy gonzales either but..
有治在人，忘乎物，忘乎天，其名為忘己。忘己之人，是之謂入於天。」
When they have forgotten external things, and have also forgotten the heavenly element in them, they may be named men who have forgotten themselves. The man who has forgotten himself is he of whom it is said that he has ENTERED Heaven.'
...you guys got lost in metaphors , which per se have nothing to do with what ZZ is trying to get across. He uses fishnets, traps etc as the proverbial 'finger to point at the moon'. This proved to be a trap (hehe) you people led by Herr Muller rushed in, to discuss ideas, communication, silent presence, rabbits, fish, aboriginee chiefs (chefs)
and what not. No. These are just fingers. ZZ's 'moon' is "to enter Heaven" by means of techincal procedures of "forgeting things, words, self".In your OP quote he talks about the part of it - forgetting words. This quote above provides the rest of the procedure - "forgeting things, words, self" in order to enter Heaven. Same as Lu 1000 years since.
-
1
-
-
Let's say I accept that there's no way we'd ever come across the characters 忘言 together unless they were written by a Daoist. Let's say the phrase is unique to ZZ and LDB. So what?
If Zhuangzi put these characters together intentionally as a special phrase with a special meaning, as we know only this one single instance of the phrase from that period in time we must still only judge the meaning based on the meaning we get from it in the context of the Zhuangzi...
-
1
-
-
MH, In a way such would not really be a "spiritual aspect" if both parties expected something either way... it would then be more like business and or of terms related to a deal.
yes thats exactly what it is. Why should not it be a deal? Or why its not spiritual?
-
(From Daoism Explained: From the Dream of the Butterfly to the Fishnet Allegory by Hans-Georg Moeller. pp55-61)
I love this title. The entire daoism explained by the guy who (kudos for honesty) assesses his chinese skills as basic/functional.
Language Reading Writing Speaking Latin Basic English Fluent Fluent Fluent Chinese Functional Basic Functional German Fluent Fluent Fluentthats some truth in advertising there.
-
it's a coincidence.
Let's also not forget that Lü Dongbin was writing around 1000 years after Zhuangzi.
I'm not sure why you're so keen to connect the 2 when there's no obvious connection aside from 2 common characters!
Hmmm..lets see... Lu and ZZ...both are part of immutable China from 19 BC to 19 AD, both are dao-ists, both are concerned with finding the ineffable truth, both used the same unique expression 'forget the words'..yep, no obvious connection here, must be a concidence. Nothing to see here, folks, move along.
By the way... do you see the supreme irony in this conversation?!
I know what you mean, but do not share the sentiment of 'ZZ says (using words) that words should not be used yet we use words to discuss how the words should not be used' Ironic! You believe that ZZ says 'words should not or can not be used by regular people if they to have a meaningful conversation' Of course, right after that you turn around and say that the words must be used, just the well-crafted ones.
(which is ironic)But that's not what ZZ says at all. He says 'I wanna talk with someone who is not a regular person. He is enlightened by passing through a technical procedure called 'forgetting words' and now, being a enlightened person has some worthwhile words to say'.
-
The words 忘 and 言 are so common and easily placed together
and yet in the humongous corpus of pre-Qin and Han literature it happens only once in ZZ
http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%20%E5%BF%98%E8%A8%80
Easily? maybe. Common? not so much.
The Laozi as a Manual of Neidan
in Daodejing
Posted
i would say its a mild disorder and will pass with age. Grandiose type: delusion of inflated worth, power, knowledge, identity . we all need help from time to time.