Xiantian (先天): Preheaven, Primordial, Precelestial

[forestofclarity]

Quote

The fundamental nature of prior heaven is empty, primordial qi. In short, it is emptiness, that is all.

 

Huang Yuanji, from Taoist Internal Alchemy, trans Mattias Daly, p.35

 

Quote

Using two traditional Chinese terms, the unconditioned and conditioned domains are respectively defined as precelestial (or prior to Heaven, xiantian, lit. “before Heaven”) and postcelestial (or posterior to Heaven, houtian, lit. “after Heaven”). The postcelestial domain is distinguished by multiplicity and relativity; it is the state that features transitory events and phenomena that succeed one another within space and time. The precelestial domain, in one of the approximations that might be used to describe it, is the constant and omnipresent original state of Oneness, which contains all events and phenomena independently of whether they do or do not occur, and with no distinctions of space and time, here and there, before and after.

 

Fabrizio Pregadio, Introduction to Awakening to Reality, p.6

 

Quote

 

When the alchemical texts use the word “original” (yuan), they refer to the Origin (yuanshi), i.e., to a primordial substance that is not born in the postcelestial state.

 

Therefore the Shihan ji (Records from a Stone Casket), attributed to Xu Jingyang (also known as Xu Xun, trad. 239–374), says: 元陽即元精，發生於玄玄之際。元精無形，寓於元炁之中。若受 外感而動，與元炁分判，則成凡精。 Original Yang is the same as Original Essence, sent forth from the bourns of the Mystery beyond the Mystery. Original Essence has no form, and resides within Original Breath. If it receives an external stimulus, then it moves: it separates from Original Breath, and becomes the common essence.

 

 

Wang Mu, foundations of Internal Alchemy, trans. Fabrizio Pregadio, p.45-46

 

This last one is interesting because it distinguishes the term as used in medical texts, such as saliva.

 

[Forestgreen]

Did you find any of these descriptions useful in your practice?

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

Did you find any of these descriptions useful in your practice?

 

In many ways. 

[ChiDragon]

On 11/6/2025 at 8:41 AM, forestofclarity said:

與元炁分判，則成凡精。
 it separates from Original Breath, and becomes the common essence.

The 元炁 was referred as the universal unit or energy that comprised of all things in the universe. 
Here is how to distinguish the usage of two chi characters 炁 and 氣
先天之炁: prenatal Chi
后天之氣: Postnatal Chi

PS
元炁 should not be translated as Original Breath.

Edited Saturday at 10:08 PM by ChiDragon

[Forestgreen]

On 2025-11-06 at 10:39 PM, forestofclarity said:

 

In many ways. 

The fundamental nature of prior heaven is empty, [nonexistent] primordial qi. In short, it is emptiness, that is all.

 

I found this to be useful, if understood as in page 47. 

 

 

Using two traditional Chinese terms, the unconditioned and conditioned domains are respectively defined as precelestial (or prior to Heaven, xiantian, lit. “before Heaven”) and postcelestial (or posterior to Heaven, houtian, lit. “after Heaven”). The postcelestial domain is distinguished by multiplicity and relativity; it is the state that features transitory events and phenomena that succeed one another within space and time. The precelestial domain, in one of the approximations that might be used to describe it, is the constant and omnipresent original state of Oneness, which contains all events and phenomena independently of whether they do or do not occur, and with no distinctions of space and time, here and there, before and after. 

 

I interpret this from the theravada abhidamma theory, which makes it comprehensible and in line with my experience during practice.
I find this slightly too abstract in it self though. 

 

 

When the alchemical texts use the word “original” (yuan), they refer to the Origin (yuanshi), i.e., to a primordial substance that is not born in the postcelestial state.

 

Therefore the Shihan ji (Records from a Stone Casket), attributed to Xu Jingyang (also known as Xu Xun, trad. 239–374), says: 元陽即元精，發生於玄玄之際。元精無形，寓於元炁之中。若受 外感而動，與元炁分判，則成凡精。 Original Yang is the same as Original Essence, sent forth from the bourns of the Mystery beyond the Mystery. Original Essence has no form, and resides within Original Breath. If it receives an external stimulus, then it moves: it separates from Original Breath, and becomes the common essence.

 

 

So yuan yang = yuan jing, and yuan jing resides within yuan qi. And according to Huang Yuanji, yuan qi is also Xing. And the unified qi of the vast harmony is the unborn ming suspended between heaven and earth, which is also real xing and real ming.

 

About here, I usually waves with a white flag and return to the buddhist terminology.  

 

[ChiDragon]

元炁 should not be translated as Original Breath. It is a substance was untouched by fire.

[forestofclarity]

On 11/8/2025 at 8:04 AM, Forestgreen said:

I interpret this from the theravada abhidamma theory, which makes it comprehensible and in line with my experience during practice.
I find this slightly too abstract in it self though.

 

I'm not sure the Abhidharma covers it. I think the pre-celestial has more in common with Mahayana and especially Chan teachings (the original face before you were born, the one mind of Huangbo, etc.). The way I see it, is if it has form, shape, texture, color, taste, etc., if you can get ahold of it in any way, you're already into the creation side of things and so it should be let go of. I find it useful because the mind seems to find an endless supply of subtler and subtler objects it likes to try to cling to. 

 

It reminds me of the Chan story:

 

Huineng: "I have something which has no head or tail. It is nameless and can't be described. It has no back and no front. Do any of you know what this is?"

Shenhui then said, "It is the source of all things. It is the Buddhanature of Shenhui."
Huineng responds, "I said it has no name and no description. How can you say it is the source of Buddha Nature?"

 

But maybe I'm distorting Daoism via a Buddhist lens. TBD. 

[Forestgreen]

21 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I'm not sure the Abhidharma covers it. 

It's ok, you don't have to. I, on the other hand, is quite confident that it does. 

And in terms also used by tibetan buddhism, the wuzhenpian tradition, some hindu traditions, and so on. The difference is that they describe the road to understanding it by the process of analysis and synthesis, while the usual chan quotes seems to be avoiding the issue by cloaking it in an unclear language.

 

But again, just my opinion, heavily influenced by textual support.