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How come Robert J Coons hasn't heard of Yan Xin qigong master?

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so he posts here as Sillybearhappyhoneyeater - and is asked by AppleCandyCane:

10) Where is Qigong Master Yan Xin currently?

He answers:

10: I don't know that person, sorry.


So I read through that reddit thread with his answers.


It is quite fascinating but I disagree with some of his views.


So then I was going to ask him a question - because he is also asked by the same person what he thinks of the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" and again no answer is given.


I bring this up - because if you then read - as I was looking to see if he mentioned that book to discuss it - as he never gave a reply either way - we find this long quote - quoted in that post.



which are that getting the mind to enter the pre heaven state is how to give birth to useful post heaven energy, and that the conncetion of the MCO is something which shouldn't be done through active visualization ("Cun Xiang").


So I noticed that he is very keen on differentiated "qigong" from "neidan" - and says how "preheaven" has different definitions based on different viewpoints from TCM or qigong or neidan, etc.


Fine - but if you actually study Yan Xin qigong master - he states that sitting meditation is based on visualization - and for old people, he states - too much emptiness meditation does not allow the qi energy to build up enough. So  Yan Xin states that standing active meditation enables the mind to empty out via listening - while the sitting meditation the mind is activate while the body is not.


Now I realize Yan Xin goes by the label of qigong master - but clearly he is a neidan master from Shaolin.


Also the book Taoist Yoga clearly emphasizes celibacy in the neidan training - and yet Robert J Coons seems to think it is not that important for the training.


So - the thing is - Robert J Coons repeatedly states a lot of energy healers and taoist are crazy, etc.


O.K. fine - but let's realize that Robert J Coons is a Westerner - and he is promoting a Western view of the training by stating celibacy is not really that necessary to build up the energy - and might he consider that Western civilization is actually crazy?


I don't think he would consider that possibility. Also Coons is asked about science in terms of neidan and he proposes the preheaven or yuan qi is based on some deeper hormone activity.


Yes - but there is more to it - I go into this in my free pdf on the alchemy training.


Now having said this - Robert J Coons encourages people to learn Chinese and says Neidan is based on first studying the texts - and he learned to read the Tao Te Ching in Chinese, along with his own translations of other Taoist texts. That is great - but consider that Yan Xin did his healing often with people who could not understand his dialect in China.


What does Robert J Coons think of the book Qigong Fever by David A. Palmer?


So Coons says when he practiced celibacy then he had to do a lot of push ups or extra exercise and he got pain in the groin or something like blue balls. He says unless people can transform the energy that it is not healthy.


I agree with what Coons says but my point to him is that if he can not transform it safely himself then how can he do the real neidan alchemy training? And to that point - what does he think of the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality - based on Huiming jing.


My impression is that Coons is very knowledgeable - and also very sociable and therefore appears stable - as he has set up a business and travels back and forth from China to Canada, etc. But this is a bourgeois WEsternized existence based on using lots of fuel as air pollution - it is not real Taoism.


Coons can present himself as a wise teacher but he lives in an age of crazy WEstern destruction of Nature and ecology. Yet he repeatedly states that people can become crazy as healers and trying to be celibate.


Sorry Coons but to do serious neidan training - you have to take risks. You say it's based on meditation - yes - and the nonaction creating action - yes - but there are risks indeed.  So his below most recent comment on this topic - I disagree with his whole intention of "not ejaculation" and "semen retention" - he has the wrong intention so of course he will have problems transforming the energy.


So Coons says that the key secret is to quiet down the central nervous system by activating the parasympathetic nervous system instead - and if a person can not quiet down the central nervous system then there are problems of too much energy.


Coons also somewhat dismisses a martial arts teacher who was to popularize martial arts training, as yoga was popularized in India - he says that the martial arts does not have any direct connection to neidan.


But in fact when I read the martial arts teacher he dismisses - i actually found a very key insight to calming down the central nervous system.



“My opinion is that there are internal and external types of breathing. First seek for the breath to be fully getting through. The distinction is whether or not the breath is getting through. Those who have never practiced boxing arts or are just beginning to, their breathing usually goes no lower than mid-torso before it goes back up, and so their energy ends up floating upward. This is called ‘hindered breathing’. When the breath is suppressed to an extreme degree, the temperament is affected, and that person develops a combative personality. Such a level of internal fire burns them up until they are scorched.
“If the breath is trained to move downward and go directly to the elixir field, then in the course of time, the heart [the peak active organ] and kidneys [the peak passive organ] will be cooperating. Water and fire will be in a state of mutual benefit [as in hexagram 63 (made of water ☵ on top of fire ☲)], keeping internal fire from burning upward. Breathing can thus be natural and not get turned around mid-torso. In this way, the body can be said to be connected inside and out, upper body and lower, energy will flow smoothly, and the breath can get through to the lower torso. But there’s basically only one kind of energy and it’s a mistake to think there are two. The problem is when it is kept from getting through. Ziyu said: ‘Seek for your lost mind. Once you have found it, your Daoist mind is born.’ [This seems to be a paraphrasing from Mengzi, chapter 6a: ‘The study of the Way is nothing more than the quest for your lost mind.’] This describes the Daoist principle of watching and listening inwardly.”

Sun Lutang


This is also the key secret of the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality"


So Coons claims that "reverse breathing" as a technique is not real neidan and also visualization is not real neidan.


He seems to be teaching a Westernized version of meditation that is more in line with Buddhism - like vipassana.



You don't need to put much attention at all, just breathe to that area through the nose, soften the breath so you can't hear it, and allow your mind to settle in the lower abdomen until it seems like the mind disappears.


He says he goes to Jesuit retreats. See you're not gonna get celibacy with that kind of breathing. The book Taoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality is very clear that only "quick fire" breathing has the power to enable proper celibacy.


Despite all his research in translating Taoist texts - his view is very particular.


I would appreciate his response.





sillybearhappyhoneyeater replied to phil48's topic in Daoist Discussion

Breathing to the lower Dantian and focusing on non action is even better!



O.K. but not "reverse" breathing? (see Walker response below).


I notice his teacher also teaches mainly standing active exercises - as internal martial arts - those practices would also be good for emptiness - as internal listening.


But Wang Liping states that only full lotus enables real deep emptiness as it opens up the lower back nerve channels and creates a stable position - with the energy points facing heaven.


So he has a blog that is more recent.


O.K. that has some new translations of some fascinating alchemy texts.


So that may very well answer my questions to satisfaction.



the real secret is the contain the spirit and cultivate the qi, then you will not leave its subtlety.


That is exactly what I was looking for - this is what I agree with!!


Regarding the breathing - Walker seems to back me up on this:



Might one argue that there are schools where things are wuwei all the way? Sure, but by that same token one probably has to accept that at a different end of Daoism's broad spectrum there are all sorts of practices involving complex breathing instructions. That's a point that Hu touches on in one of his essays I link to above.


So what Robert J. Coons is teaching is actually more akin to vipassana:



The best way is that there is no you, no surroundings, and if you are successful, even no nothingness.   That is how the real pre heaven three treasures are joined.   If you focus on the breath, the intention, and the lower abdomen, that is post heaven and it is called "wai yao" or outer medicine.  outer medicine is good for your health, but not good for spiritual purposes.  It is better to direct the mind to genuine non action, in which the attention and breath are only used as an anchor, not as antagonist.


Right - but this is actually called "breathless ecstasy" to achieve real nirvikalpa samadhi - the body first needs to be filled with qi to achieve real Emptiness of the mind.


So it's like Master Nan, Huai-jin says - if you think you have no thoughts that itself is a thought. It's not real Emptiness. Only when you can sit in full lotus for 2 hours in bliss with no pain are you starting to achieve some emptiness of the mind.


So here Coons is saying posture is not that important - but it's not just full lotus. If you study the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality - it clearly states that the left leg on top is the  "yang embracing the yin" of the lower body - and as I detail in my pdf - I quote a Chinese medical doctor who studies neidan - stating that indeed with the left leg on top then you activate the qi energy more do to the distribution of the organs on the right side.


You have to read my pdf for the details. Coons says his teacher is researching the endocrine system, the nervous system and neidan training - I have many science details on those connections. Feel free to use the resources.



I really want to contribute something safe so that less people are injured by the funny methods of some so called Qi gong masters.



So again - who is he referring to? We know Coons does not like Mantak Chia. That's fine - but again what does he think of the book Taoist Yoga - in that quote Coons is referring to the immortal breathing stage - which is what I referred to above as the "breathless ecstasy" - after the body is filled with qi. He says that the qi returns back to the lower tan tien - yes but his metaphor seems misleading. The qi surrounds the shen in the lower tan tien - that is why it is the cavity of spirit-vitality and when a master goes into the emptiness he always sees light in the lower tan tien.

Here Coons makes another error in my view:



Chen Yingning said that the relationship between Shen and Qi is that the shen boils the Jing essence of the body (basically sexual fluid) and causes steam to rise, which becomes Qi.  The steam when it is further boiled evaporates and becomes shen.


This is my final question for Coons - Does Chen Yingning specially state "sexual fluid" - I don't think so.


Study the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality - the whole purpose of Quick Fire breathing is to prevent the creation of "sexual fluid" and yet you are advocating trying to turn sexual fluid into qi. That is wrong - and that is why your celibacy training was not working either - your intention is not pure enough.


If Emptiness intention is done properly - and this is from the Shen or light being turned around into the Emptiness - and then the Quick Fire is the proper intention as the pancreas is the Earth connected to the sympathetic nervous system - that is the same chinese medical doctor who corroborates the secret of the left leg on top in full lotus - details in my free pdf. So the Quick Fire breathing actually activates the proper intention then.





Edited by voidisyinyang

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