Taomeow Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) I suppose I'd answer that with this: Here you say the form of the element Metal does not matter, and I would apply this to Wind as well. Wind is part of the layer of 8 changing elemental forces, not the five. The wuxing and bagua are superimposed in all taoist sciences, in particular classical Xinshi Pai and Liqi Pai ("form and compass" schools) whence my approach comes. You are not dealing with "one OR the other" in any astrological, feng shui, or medical or martial or what-not analysis -- you are dealing with both simultaneously. It's just that we analyze them sequentially, but it doesn't mean that the part currently not under scrutiny is not part of the phenomenon. Confusion, alas, is common, since some of the terms from the wuxing system overlap with some of the terms of the bagua system, and both, with words in everyday non-taoist usage. The word "wind" -- it can mean just wind as a weather phenomenon; then, as such, it can be analyzed with wuxing approach like any other phenomenon, whereupon you can discover its wuxing nature if you've been trained in the procedures; it can stand for a "pernicious influence of Wind" with properties of "penetrating, piercing, cutting and hurting inward" in TCM -- this will often refer in a very indirect manner to the weather phenomenon, the infectious and especially viral diseases such weather may or may not be associated with, but primarily to the body having had its defenses pierced and penetrated by something unknown and unobserved that is however called Wind because it behaves like Wind, Metal, phase of qi from wuxing perspective; then, importantly, there's the Wind of the trigram Xun in bagua -- that's where you must have concluded that if you know the trigram Wind, it means Wind is not part of the wuxing system. Not so! -- so, Wind of bagua, a totally different concept from Wind qi manifestations as one of its behaviors/phases being analyzed with wuxing methods for its wuxing affiliation; then there's Wind of feng shui, which comes from the Heavenly Stem and shapes the Earthly Branch, an extremely advanced idea of a carving, shaping, form-giving function of creation. My all-time favorite taoist poetry line goes, The shape of the mountains reveals the shape of the wind. This is best understood via direct observation in a state of deep concentration, with subsequent prolonged contemplation. Now as to the external form that has to be ignored, this is in reference to the phase of synthesis. Form-compass feng shui, astrology, medicine, taijiquan and all the rest of taoist arts and sciences start with analysis -- you let go of the form after you have mastered it, not before. Wuxhing and bagua provide tools and methodologies for this analysis. You master their applications to taoist cognition and praxis by using them, not by discarding them from the get-go. Oh, and Western astrology is entirely superfluous in taoist sciences -- of course it's possible to dig up some parallels if one so desires, because we share a common world (and because both have common Mesopotamian roots), but Western astrology as it survives today is so inflated with top-heavy metaphysics and so arbitrarily psychologized that I find it pragmatically cumbersome, intellectually confusing, and spiritually clogging. So... thanks but no thanks. Edited March 13, 2015 by Taomeow 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daeluin Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) The wuxing and bagua are superimposed in all taoist sciences, in particular classical Xinshi Pai and Liqi Pai ("form and compass" schools) whence my approach comes. You are not dealing with "one OR the other" in any astrological, feng shui, or medical or martial or what-not analysis -- you are dealing with both simultaneously. It's just that we analyze them sequentially, but it doesn't mean that the part currently not under scrutiny is not part of the phenomenon. Hmmm, I wonder about this. Every form within the 10,000 things must certainly be mastered. But if one simply masters the whole, one too masters all parts of the whole. Confusion, alas, is common, since some of the terms from the wuxing system overlap with some of the terms of the bagua system, and both, with words in everyday non-taoist usage. The word "wind" -- it can mean just wind as a weather phenomenon; then, as such, it can be analyzed with wuxing approach like any other phenomenon, whereupon you can discover its wuxing nature if you've been trained in the procedures; it can stand for a "pernicious influence of Wind" with properties of "penetrating, piercing, cutting and hurting inward" in TCM -- this will often refer in a very indirect manner to the weather phenomenon, the infectious and especially viral diseases such weather may or may not be associated with, but primarily to the body having had its defenses pierced and penetrated by something unknown and unobserved that is however called Wind because it behaves like Wind, Metal, phase of qi from wuxing perspective; then, importantly, there's the Wind of the trigram Xun in bagua -- that's where you must have concluded that if you know the trigram Wind, it means Wind is not part of the wuxing system. Not so! -- so, Wind of bagua, a totally different concept from Wind qi manifestations as one of its behaviors/phases being analyzed with wuxing methods for its wuxing affiliation; Well, you're right! I hadn't been aware of the medicinal theory - that bit of studying has remained on the to-do list for now, though I've started reading Li Shi-Zhen's An Exposition on the Eight Extraordinary Vessels, translated and expounded upon by Charles Chace and Miki Shima. I'm quite enjoying it so far as this appears directed at both medicinal and cultivation audiences. Yes, that's exactly what I did, associating Wind with the symbol found in the Eight Trigrams. Really so far I've noticed a trend in daoist classics that there is no such thing as a coincidence when the same terms are used in different contexts. Really this even applies to yin and yang... must be a daoist idea of a joke. So I pulled open that book on Five Element Chinese Medicine I have but haven't finished reading... Five Elements and Ten Stems Nan Ching Theory, Diagnostic and Practice by Kiki Matsumoto and Stephen Birch. The index had a couple items on Wind, as follows: Seasonal Influences An important interrelation of Man with his environment stems from the influences of the seasons. It is an area where the Five Elements system is particularly rich with correspondences. The temporal sequences of Ten Stems, Nine Stars, and Twelve Branches synthesize neatly into the Five Elements system. It is possible to see that the system itself might have derived from observation of these sequences. The passages which follow tell us how the body's energies interact with the seasonal energies corresponding to the Five Elements. The Lu Shih Chhun Chhiu makes the important point that the influences of the seasons can support the Jing: "Cold, heat, damp, dry, wind, try to work or help produce the Jing." The same source points out that "big" or excess of any of the seasonal influences can cause harm to the body: "Big cold, big heat, big dryness, big dampness, big wind, big long rain, big smog, these seven stimulate of make the Jing and then cause harm to the body." In the Su Wen the mechanism by which these eternal influences can affect the body and its organs is described: "The Yellow Emperor asked, 'There are eight winds in Heaven and only five winds in the body, how is this?' Chi Po answered, 'The eight winds make { create/become } evil. Using the Meridian winds { Chi? } the eight winds can approach and touch the five Yin organs. Then the Evil Chi makes disease.'" This mechanism is further clarified by the relationship of the prenatal, postnatal and seasonal influences which mix together giving the body a full, healthy condition through the True Chi: "True Chi is the meridian Chi." "True Chi is the prenatal Chi from the parents, Chi of breathing from Heaven, and Chi of food and water from Earth mixed together, making the body have a full condition." "How can we separate Correct Chi and True Chi? Correct Wind Chi is harmony of the body with wind from the correct direction." We can see how the bodys energies are in harmony with the seasons. If the body's energies are balanced, and the correct seasonal influences come during the correct seasons, then the seasonal energies of "correct Wind Chi" will support the energies of the body, the True Chi. If eight the bodys energies are imbalanced of a seasonal influence comes in the wrong season, then the body can become diseased, an "Evil Chi" can come into the body. As Chi Po tells us, disease develops when the eight winds" of Heaven touch the five Yin organs. In this context the eight winds of Heaven are environmental influences, probably related to the energies of the eight Trigrams. The eight winds can enter the meridians without causing disease, implying that one of the functions of the meridian Chi is to prevent the eight winds from touching the Yin organs and thereby prevent disease. Either an imbalance of the meridian Chi or of the five Yin organs must exist in order for the eight winds to create disease. Five Elements theory is able to describe energetic balances and correspondences within the body and outside of the body, and how these interact to generate disease or health. The "eight winds" representing the energies of Heaven, and the five seasonal and climactic influences representing the energies of Earth, are seen to interact through the meridian Chi in different ways. Depending on the relative balance of Man within his environment, illness or good health results. In this way the Five Elements System contributes a means for understanding what is happening within a given human body and as well a means for relating those events and phenomena to the environment. So the Su Wen says the eight winds can approach and touch the five Yin organs, and then further on we have a table: Seasonal Correspondences Wood Fire Earth Metal Water East South Center West North Direction Spring Summer Long Summer Autumn Winter Seasons Wind Heat Damp Dryness Cold Climatic Influence So I only referenced one text, but it immediately pointed to wind-bagua and wind-wood associations. But too, all five of these are winds, so we have a Wood Wind and a Metal Wind. Published in 1983, so perhaps this perspective has been evolved, or perhaps there are different schools of thought. It is certainly a profound area to study and I'd love hearing more about it. then there's Wind of feng shui, which comes from the Heavenly Stem and shapes the Earthly Branch, an extremely advanced idea of a carving, shaping, form-giving function of creation. My all-time favorite taoist poetry line goes, The shape of the mountains reveals the shape of the wind. This is best understood via direct observation in a state of deep concentration, with subsequent prolonged contemplation. This is beautiful and poignant. Thank you. Now as to the external form that has to be ignored, this is in reference to the phase of synthesis. Form-compass feng shui, astrology, medicine, taijiquan and all the rest of taoist arts and sciences start with analysis -- you let go of the form after you have mastered it, not before. Wuxhing and bagua provide tools and methodologies for this analysis. You master their applications to taoist cognition and praxis by using them, not by discarding them from the get-go. I hear you. If we set our intention upon the wuji within and simply let everything else be, we can radiate trust and it will rest upon all of the layers of forms within and without - without our needing to comprehend them with any sort of mental knowing. We must master every layer, but can do so by simply becoming every layer within the whole. The trick is not leaving anything behind through preference or judgment, or lack of thoroughness, etc. We can assist this by studying, but any knowledge we attach to must eventually be emptied as well. If one is studying taiji, one should not simply take what feels good to them and cut out what does not - that is a good way to leave blind spots undeveloped. But if one masters taiji, must one also master bagua, feng shui, etc, in order master one's self and become a transcendent? Or must one simply take any form that contains true wholeness and use it to fully master themselves? Oh, and Western astrology is entirely superfluous in taoist sciences -- of course it's possible to dig up some parallels if one so desires, because we share a common world (and because both have common Mesopotamian roots), but Western astrology as it survives today is so inflated with top-heavy metaphysics and so arbitrarily psychologized that I find it pragmatically cumbersome, intellectually confusing, and spiritually clogging. So... thanks but no thanks. Quite. Agreed. My musings above expound upon the rich depth of the 5 phases within the seasons to help dissolve the western perspective back within a deeper root. Or at least one that is deeper to me. Ultimately my exploration into how they might be connected is just an amusement - as I said before, the elements cannot be simply overlayed, they are different paradigms that study the same cycle. Edited March 13, 2015 by Daeluin 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daeluin Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Hmmm, I wonder about this. Every form within the 10,000 things must certainly be mastered. But if one simply masters the whole, one too masters all parts of the whole. I hear you. If we set our intention upon the wuji within and simply let everything else be, we can radiate trust and it will rest upon all of the layers of forms within and without - without our needing to comprehend them with any sort of mental knowing. We must master every layer, but can do so by simply becoming every layer within the whole. The trick is not leaving anything behind through preference or judgment, or lack of thoroughness, etc. We can assist this by studying, but any knowledge we attach to must eventually be emptied as well. If one is studying taiji, one should not simply take what feels good to them and cut out what does not - that is a good way to leave blind spots undeveloped. But if one masters taiji, must one also master bagua, feng shui, etc, in order master one's self and become a transcendent? Or must one simply take any form that contains true wholeness and use it to fully master themselves? Okay, so Liu Yiming is yelling at me now. His final chapter in Cultivating the Tao tl; Pregadio exhausts this topic: Exerting One's Mind to Inquire into the Principles: Essentially, in the great Way of the sages and the worthies there are a beginning and an end, the root and the branches. Only by knowing the beginning and comprehending the end, by investigating the root and inquiring into the branches can you tread that Way from one edge to the other, and can there be great awakening and great realization, benefit, and profit. If even one thing is not understood, it becomes a source of delusion: something not true in one's knowledge is an obstruction on one's way. Disciples should inquire into this principle, and only then can they practice this principle. Neither extension of knowledge nor diligent practice should be missing. What is this principle? It is the Way of creation and transformation of Heaven and Earth. The Way of creation and transformation has a foundation (ti) and an operation (yong), a beginning and an end. In this Way, Yin and Yang alternate with one another, and exhaustion and growth succeed one another: their transformations have no limits. However, the ultimate point of this Way consists only in the One Breath; and the One Breath does not lie outside of Empty Non-Being. This core is not form and is not emptiness, it is not Being and is not Non-Being. It cannot be sought by using your mind, but it also cannot be sought by not using your mind. It can hardly be portrayed or pictured; it can hardly be thought or discussed. Following its course results in generating humans and things, inverting its course results in giving birth to Immortals and Buddhas. Here lodge Nature (xing) and Existence (ming), here emerge life and death. Those who are awakened to it ascend to the rank of a saint, those who have no knowledge of it sink for ten thousand kalpas in the ocean of samsara. "Inquiring into the principles" means inquiring into this principle. Only by thoroughly inquiring into this principle can one be able to practice this principle. However, this principle involves applying the fire phases, following a procedure, changing according to the circumstances, hurrying or slowing, hastening or delaying, receiving and casting away, concealing or displaying, squareness and roundness, wholeness and incompleteness, "stopping where it is sufficient," and a large number of other functions. First you should comprehend the Way, and then you should know the method. The dual operation of Way and method, and the joint cultivation of Nature and Existence, are the Way of the Supreme One Vehicle. The Way of the One Vehicle is the Way of treading actual ground. In the Way of treading actual ground, one must follow the stages of the gradual progress: it cannot be sought without following a sequence. What are the stages of the gradual progress? They are: [He lists 18 stages of Neidan starting with Accumulating virtue in one's conduct and ending with Smashing Emptiness.] All of the above is essential to cultivate the Tao, and all the possibilities of saintly operation reside therein. If you clearly discern and thoroughly comprehend all of the above points, and if you diligently and untiringly practice them from the beginning to end, you will be able to fulfill your Nature and your Existence. However, the students of this world only discern the false and do not discern the true: they are unwilling to exert their minds in order to inquire into this principle, and they look lightly upon Nature and Existence. Without even entering the gate, they want to ascend to the main hall; without bringing the human pursuits to an end, they fantasticate about the Way of the Immortals; and without making effort in person, they want to take someone else's true Treasure. If anything goes even slightly different from what they wish, they at once display their irritation: they stop halfway, turn around, and give up without a reason. By acting like this, how can they approach the gateway that leads to sainthood and worthiness? Now, the learning of the saints and the sages consists in the learning of "inquiring into the principles and achieving one's Nature ain order to accomplish one's Existence." Its principles are refined and subtle, and its meanings are deep and obscure. Tortoise and milfoil cannot fathom it, spirits and deities cannot know about it. It is not something to which you can awaken by means of "one word or half a sentence." If you do not inquire into these principles and practice several dozens of years, you can only make conjectures about a couple of things. Unless you accumulate virtue in your conduct, unless you are bold in your progress, and unless you are single-minded and determined, you cannot come into contact with a true master. The great persons take Nature and Existence as the great undertaking. Unremitting day and night, they "reach the depths and grasp the seeds of all things," and "probe the Spirit to understand the transformations." Finally, as the saying goes, "the bitter ends and the sweet comes," and suddenly good fortune arrives. All the doubts of the past unexpectedly melt like ice and scatter into pieces like a broken tile. Now you know that all the things you had been thinking were not wrong. How sad it is that the students of this world do not reflect on the pursuit of Nature and Existence, and do not look into the Way of Nature and Existence! They get mired in the study of the Tao and in the cultivation of the Tao; they vainly attempt to ascend to Heaven in a single step, and to achieve sainthood in one instant. It is no wonder that they are deceived by the ignorant masters of the present day, and that they end up spending their lives in the lair of demons. When one looks at every craft and every art of our world, each of them requires long and careful study; in no other way can there be achievement. How could the great undertaking of Life and Death, which is something rare in our world, be easy to know? [He speaks on the many masters and many years spent in seeking a true master by one of his masters, and concludes with:] I advise my companions on the Way: Establish an enduring commitment and maintain a steady mind; remove errant thoughts and give prominence to the undertaking of Nature and Existence; inquire into the principles of creation and transformation with an unwavering mind. Advance by removing one layer after the other: when you remove one layer, continue to the next one until you finally reach the inner core of the Tao. Then you will be able to see that all the dust of this world is a precious jewel. Rambling at will, you will go anywhere you like, and everywhere will be the Tao. Entirely awakened and entirely realized, you will move without obstructions. Why should you fear that you will not fulfill your Nature and you Existence? Why should you fear that you will not achieve the Great Tao? He touches upon the essence I court: However, the ultimate point of this Way consists only in the One Breath; and the One Breath does not lie outside of Empty Non-Being. And perhaps should one be able to harness this essence, one might ride it through all manner of challenges without mistake simply lead by the wings of destiny. But even with the wings of destiny it sounds like one had best be thorough. Some interesting things were touched upon here... such as Tortoise and milfoil cannot fathom it, spirits and deities cannot know about it. Edited March 13, 2015 by Daeluin 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Thanks for the interesting quotes and for your thoughtful consideration of my take. You're right about taoist ideas using the same word for different things (or for different aspects of the same thing) being usually not unrelated, though in specialized contexts this "same word" is typically used as a specialized term, and you sort of have to forget that it means something different (however related) in a different context. Chinese is an extremely context-dependent language. A word without its semantic environment means nothing at all, more often than not, or in any event nothing definite. It needs its peers to acquire meaning. The role of the king is played by his court. The eight and five "winds" of the text you quoted -- in this context "wind" is again something else, it stands for -- well, I usually refer to these as "energies of the world," there's no word to my knowledge that specializes in meaning what these thirteen mean. I know them well from taijiquan though (to name one practice hinged on these). They are also sometimes referred to as "thirteen songs," and they are certainly attributes and manifestations of qi. What they have in common with "ordinary" wind is their dynamic nature. They are not something that exists separately from acting -- they arise when they act. Like the wind, they can come in gusts, or in continuous pressure, or just as a gentle breeze -- or as a hurricane. They can carry moisture or dryness, can be hot or cold... (not crazy about the "Seasonal correspondences" table you quoted from your source by the way -- both "wind" and "damp" are out of place there, e.g. right now we're in the Year of the Earthly Stem of Dry Earth... so, "damp" is not one of the inherent attributes of Earth, unlike its Center/Late summer [not 'long summer'] position -- likewise, "wind" is not one of the attributes of Wood, unlike its East/Spring position. Of course here we're dealing with cosmic seasons, not only local ones, and with cosmic directions, not just earthly ones.) Edited March 13, 2015 by Taomeow 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Hmmm, I wonder about this. Every form within the 10,000 things must certainly be mastered. But if one simply masters the whole, one too masters all parts of the whole. (...) If we set our intention upon the wuji within and simply let everything else be, we can radiate trust and it will rest upon all of the layers of forms within and without - without our needing to comprehend them with any sort of mental knowing. We must master every layer, but can do so by simply becoming every layer within the whole. The trick is not leaving anything behind through preference or judgment, or lack of thoroughness, etc. We can assist this by studying, but any knowledge we attach to must eventually be emptied as well. If one is studying taiji, one should not simply take what feels good to them and cut out what does not - that is a good way to leave blind spots undeveloped. But if one masters taiji, must one also master bagua, feng shui, etc, in order master one's self and become a transcendent? Or must one simply take any form that contains true wholeness and use it to fully master themselves? The whole is not available to a modern man or woman. Hasn't been in ten thousand years, give or take. Shortcuts so many would take in the general direction of its beckoning but elusive embrace don't work -- except for a brief moment sometimes, followed by a painful crash and burn much of the time. Wishful thinking doesn't work. Doing the work works. That's what taoism is all about. It's not about "putting your mind to it" -- it's about putting "the whole of you to it." A whole is a whole -- not an idea in the head. However, taoism doesn't leave the head out of it either. It leaves nothing out of it. Thinking "whole" thoughts is not where it's at. Being whole asks for more. And, no, it's not necessary to master the ten thousand things. It is however necessary to master at least one. As a Shaolin saying goes, "I don't fear the ten thousand different kicks you have practiced. I fear the one kick you have practiced ten thousand times." Edited March 13, 2015 by Taomeow 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daeluin Posted March 13, 2015 Thanks for the interesting quotes and for your thoughtful consideration of my take. Right back at you. The information you share is always very alive, so it is a pleasure to receive. You're right about taoist ideas using the same word for different things (or for different aspects of the same thing) being usually not unrelated, though in specialized contexts this "same word" is typically used as a specialized term, and you sort of have to forget that it mean something different (however related) in a different context. This bit here is almost as profound a principle as polarity, and is the mechanism of creation itself. The 3 contain the 2, and from this we get the 4, the 5, the 6, all at once, and all uniquely shaped. The eight and five "winds" of the text you quoted -- in this context "wind" is again something else, it stands for -- well, I usually refer to these as "energies of the world," there's no word to my knowledge that specializes in meaning what these thirteen mean. I know them well from taijiquan though (to name one practice hinged on these). They are also sometimes referred to as "thirteen songs," and they are certainly attributes and manifestations of qi. What they have in common with "ordinary" wind is their dynamic nature. They are not something that exists separately from acting -- they arise when they act. Like the wind, they can come in gusts, or in continuous pressure, or just as a gentle breeze -- or as a hurricane. They can carry moisture or dryness, can be hot or cold... (not crazy about the "Seasonal correspondences" table you quoted from your source by the way -- both "wind" and "damp" are out of place there, e.g. right now we're in the Year of the Earthly Stem of Dry Earth... so, "damp" is not one of the inherent attributes of Earth, unlike its Center/Late summer [not 'long summer'] position -- likewise, "wind" is not one of the attributes of Wood, unlike its East/Spring position. Of course here we're dealing with cosmic seasons, not only local ones, and with cosmic directions, not just earthly ones.) Thanks for your comments. I definitely need to study more, hopefully as informed by a growing awareness of my vessels and meridians. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
