'No self' my experience so far...

[Seth Ananda]

Do you exist?

 

A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

lol

 

Absolutely, No.

 

Relatively, Yes.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Seth Ananda

[Seth Ananda]

 

You can give endless intellectual debates, as to why I didn't get it, why there is nothing to get, why it doesn't make sense, how you got it and saw through it already and it is really nothing, but at the end of the day, I got it, and the change has been profound.

Trot, trot, toot toot! {rides around blowing my trumpet and waving my flag lol}

 

lol

[Informer]

lol

 

Absolutely, No.

 

Relatively, Yes.

 

It's not a question about the self. It's a question about you.

[Seth Ananda]

lol

 

Absolutely, No.

 

Relatively, Yes.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I'm not sure of the relevance of what i'm about to post, it just feels appropriate.. i am neither Buddhist nor Taoist, i am simply paying attention.. it has been quite some time since my realization that 'paying attention' was the most productively revealing process i had encountered, it continues to reveal itself in that manner with stunning consistency. The other realization, circa same time frame, early 1980s, around my age 30, was that simplicity has a cleansing and clarifying effect on the perceptions of my existence.. together, these realizations have remained as my primary means of usefully employing awareness to inform me of my relationship with Life and existence.

 

Regarding the relationship between Buddhism and Taoism, recalling that i consider myself as neither, but.. i find the principles of Taoism more closely approximating my understandings than those of Buddhism.. i am quite fond of paying attention, especially when my thought processes are diminished or suspended.. which, as one might suspect is a fairly simplistic perspective when you're 'there'.. Between the presentations of Buddhism and Taoism, made by the many different presenters, written and live, Buddhist and Taoist, there has been a noticeably more simple process of the Taoist perspectives than of the Buddhist perspectives.. of course, that's 'my' simple inclinations influencing my understanding, and i do try to understand the bias effects..

 

It seems that Buddhists have a tendency to tell others 'how and what' to see/experience.. and Taoists tend to suggest that the experiencer see and experience independently, and seek common understandings through comparative discourse, a process i favor, too.. and, that evaluation may also be biased by my previously stated preferences, but.. it is my experience that if i continually 'shoot' for 'simply looking', i am more likely to get closer to that target.. so, as i said, i have no idea of the relevance of this rambling post, but it seemed appropriate at the time..

 

Be well..

[Seth Ananda]

My experience so far shows me that the Relative and Absolute levels are like little kids skipping hand in hand down the street together, singing a sweet song.

[xabir2005]

I was just browsing over at Ruthless Truth again, and I'm frankly appalled. I still don't see how anyone takes them that seriously.

 

Not that "no self" doesn't point at an important truth, but I don't think that the "liberated" members of RT get that truth, at all. IME, "self" = certainty, so letting go of self is letting go of certainty. That's the opposite of what RT does.

 

The first couple links that I randomly clicked on (below), revealed conversations in which the "noob" was entirely reasonable, and utterly clear in their arguments. The "red" and "blue" RT members, on the other hand, were defensive, arrogant, and utterly unable to give any argument deeper than "the self is not real; look for yourself" (never mind how ironic that advice is). They kept making references to how they were seeing reality, without the slightest inkling that "reality" is utterly dependent on the "self". Whenever someone suggested that there might be more to "liberation" than this one "truth", they were ignored, and booed down. Doesn't ignorance come from ignoring things?

 

I have considered going on the site, and having a conversation with them, but I don't see any advantage to it. They respond to actual conversations, as if they were threats. The only thing they seem able to handle, is capitulation. Is that liberation? It seems more like they've trapped themselves in the concept of "no self" (and the need to be right), because they've lost all ability to engage in subtle understanding and intercourse. I see all the trappings of a cult, and no usefulness, or real desire to help.

 

I don't know what to say to those of you who say they've been helped by RT. I can't doubt your experience. But I do hope that you consider doubting the belief in the idea that this "truth" = liberation. Liberation, as far as I can see, never comes through dogmatism; it is at the very opposite end of the spectrum. IME, "no self" is just masturbation without the action of "surrendering the self", which is all about letting go of certainty. But certainty seems to be what RT is addicted to.

 

The threads I perused:

http://www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1292

http://www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1304

liberation requires a quantum shift of perception. Because even if you have temporary experiences where the sense of self temporarily dissolves, as long as you still believe that the "self" is real, you will forever be back in the loop of seeing a self and trying to chase it away. Like being in a dream of monsters and trying hard to get rid of that monster in the dream not realizing it was all just a fictitious thought.

 

In the same way, no-self does not point to an experience, does not point to temporary unitive experiences where the sense of self is temporarily forgotten (this is quite common). Rather it points to a fact about reality, and it is not a belief but it can be directly realized and verified: the fact of no self.

 

Hearing, seeing, thinking, everything is not and cannot be denied... It is only that notion, sense of agent that must be investigated and seen through.

 

I cannot stress how important that quantum shift of perception is... Otherwise no matter how you practice or attempt to let go of self, you can never realize that no self is already the natural state and already always so.

 

That is, in seeing always just scenery without seer. In hearing always just sound no hearer... Etc.

 

The view that posits "is" or "is not" with regards to a self, which means the view of inherent existence, is the cause behind all grasping. In order to treat our afflictions, we must treat it from the root - the conceit of "I am" as Buddha calls it.

 

That conceit, that view must be thoroughly abandoned not by efforting but by realization.

 

I have not long ago written something about the view: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/07/view.html

[Seth Ananda]

 

In the same way, no-self does not point to an experience, does not point to temporary unitive experiences where the sense of self is temporarily forgotten (this is quite common). Rather it points to a fact about reality, and it is not a belief but it can be directly realized and verified: the fact of no self.

 

 

Yes!

[xabir2005]

[xabir2005]

At first, we are deluded into thinking there is a windness behind blowing.

 

Then we experienced forgetting the windness, left the blowing.

 

After which, we keep trying to forget windness.

 

Until we realise that "wind" is simply a label collating the everchanging blowing activities, that there is no "windness" behind blowing.

 

At this point, all confusions and grasping dissolve, and we are simply left enjoying the ungraspable and intimate process of blowing.

 

Same applies to "self" and "five aggregates".

Edited July 27, 2011 by xabir2005

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

At first, we are deluded into thinking there is a windness behind blowing.

 

Then we experienced forgetting the windness, left the blowing.

 

After which, we keep trying to forget windness.

 

Until we realise that "wind" is simply a label collating the everchanging blowing activities, that there is no "windness" behind blowing.

 

At this point, all confusions and grasping dissolve, and we are simply left enjoying the ungraspable and intimate process of blowing.

 

Same applies to "self" and "five aggregates".

It's so much simpler than that.. just 'look'.. you wrestle with words, blaming words upon people and beliefs upon words and, people upon selfs and, ..... cripe, so much words.. what i might have said: 'walk outside, feel the wind blowing'..

 

Be well..

[Sunya]

Greetings..

 

 

It's so much simpler than that.. just 'look'.. you wrestle with words, blaming words upon people and beliefs upon words and, people upon selfs and, ..... cripe, so much words.. what i might have said: 'walk outside, feel the wind blowing'..

 

Be well..

 

Walk outside and feel the wind blowing could mean 100 different things to 100 different people. We all come with our conditioned beliefs and interpretative habits. Clear communication is necessary because true wisdom lies in subtlety.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Sunya

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

 

It's so much simpler than that.. just 'look'.. you wrestle with words, blaming words upon people and beliefs upon words and, people upon selfs and, ..... cripe, so much words.. what i might have said: 'walk outside, feel the wind blowing'..

 

Be well..

 

That's not liberation from unconscious birth and death, nor is that liberation from deeply held conditions which cause psychological suffering. What happens when you don't have the legs to walk outside, or you loose your arms, or your body dies. Buddhism is a path that brings people experiential contemplations that allow one to find a source of joy that is free from dependency on sense friction, while not denying it at the same time.

 

If your goal is not complete eradication of psychological suffering and freedom from unconscious rebirth, no matter what happens. If that doesn't matter to you and if your Taoism brings you some happiness in this life, if that's your goal, then you've reached your goal. Other people might have different goals, so they will need a path that addresses these questions.

 

You think it's delusion, I think it's deluded to think that. Both are subjective views.

[xabir2005]

Greetings..

 

 

It's so much simpler than that.. just 'look'.. you wrestle with words, blaming words upon people and beliefs upon words and, people upon selfs and, ..... cripe, so much words.. what i might have said: 'walk outside, feel the wind blowing'..

 

Be well..

it is not about words, words are simply pointing to some aspect of one's experience... And also before one has true experience and realization these words might seem like nonsense, but after true experience and realization, whatever I said will make perfect sense.

 

No matter how you say "walk outside, feel the wind blowing"

 

The fact remains that people still feel like they are this entity constricted inside their head or body, looking outwards at the sky, feeling the wind, etc

 

What I am saying is that once no-self is realized, you don't "feel the wind" - you are the wind, and even that is not quite right, there is simply the wind blowing and there is no feeler. There is an unbounded freedom from constriction, the sense of a body-mind is dropped off and there is great bliss and intensity of non-dual luminosity or clarity as a result.

 

Once you have experiential realization all these are seen in real time and you are not binded by words, but you can freely and spontaneously use words to point this out to someone else.

Edited July 27, 2011 by xabir2005

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Well, i understand my preferences a bit more clearly, now.. but, i need neither Taoism nor Buddhism for complete eradication of psychological suffering.. and, unconscious rebirth is an oxymoron, if you are unconscious of it, it is just birth.. reincarnation is a belief without substantiating evidence.. the version i can reconcile. with simple observation, is the redistribution of the energies that once animated prior physical bodies, and the resonance of those energies increasing the probability of recalling memory fragments and creating an illusion of prior incarnations related by belief structures..

 

Be well..

[Informer]

If you do not exist, then quit pretending you do.

 

If you do not exist, then why pretend to?

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

Well, i understand my preferences a bit more clearly, now.. but, i need neither Taoism nor Buddhism for complete eradication of psychological suffering.. and, unconscious rebirth is an oxymoron, if you are unconscious of it, it is just birth.. reincarnation is a belief without substantiating evidence.. the version i can reconcile. with simple observation, is the redistribution of the energies that once animated prior physical bodies, and the resonance of those energies increasing the probability of recalling memory fragments and creating an illusion of prior incarnations related by belief structures..

 

Be well..

 

All based upon your limited experience. What you have accepted as truth thus far.

 

Others have another experience, that which cannot be framed in the spectrum of your doubt because it transcends those limits.

 

Thus for people like me, who know they have past lives, we need to go to a path that can explain that. Doubt all you want, I don't exist in that paradigm of doubting past life reality. It's as real for me as you remembering yesterday, knowing that "you" in fact did this and that, it's that clear for me and people like me.

 

I know it's just lack of meditation experience for you, and you think I'm just deluded based upon believing conceptual structures. So, you can go along with your doubts. I'll just go along with what I know to be true and keep speaking from that truth. Of course things beyond the 5 senses will not be provable, not yet at least... who knows how deep science will go. I do know that consciousness is already deeper and works on dimensions beyond science, subtler than the brain.

[Informer]

Do you exist vaj?

[TzuJanLi]

 

I know it's just lack of meditation experience for you, and you think I'm just deluded based upon believing conceptual structures. So, you can go along with your doubts. I'll just go along with what I know to be true and keep speaking from that truth. Of course things beyond the 5 senses will not be provable, not yet at least... who knows how deep science will go. I do know that consciousness is already deeper and works on dimensions beyond science, subtler than the brain.

You cannot 'know' about my meditations practices.. what differs is your expectations programmed by your beliefs, and my lack of expectation such that truth might be revealed.. someone has already told you what your truth will be.. mine is fresh and new each moment..

 

Be well..

[Vajrahridaya]

You cannot 'know' about my meditations practices.. what differs is your expectations programmed by your beliefs, and my lack of expectation such that truth might be revealed.. someone has already told you what your truth will be.. mine is fresh and new each moment..

 

Be well..

 

Actually no, I had past life experiences before I read a scripture, or was told about what they meant, I was one of those weird kids that knew too much too soon. This is due to the fact that I put in lots of work in past lives.

 

Be open to new and exciting perspectives that may arise if you go deeper in meditation. You can time travel... really... you can, as both you and time are empty, yet interconnected since without beginning.

 

To explain further, all of life arises due to causes and conditions, due to programs. Yes, there is the unconditioned state of view, state of mind, but how things happen to the mind have to do with how conditions happen. Past lives are part of these programs and conditions which form the current arising of this exact moment which you are experiencing from a view without condition?

 

Just, consider this... direct insight into the nature of this moment, leads to transcending the moment while in it, then your mind state can truly be free from it's conditions, as there are no subconscious threats, as they are seen through, understood and let go of as self. This is part of the omniscience of Buddhahood.

[Vajrahridaya]

You cannot 'know' about my meditations practices..

 

You reveal what you've experienced through what you state.

[Vajrahridaya]

Do you exist vaj?

 

dependently, yes. Independently, no.

[Informer]

dependently, yes. Independently, no.

 

How do you mean?

[Vajrahridaya]

How do you mean?

 

I exist dependent upon all else since time without beginning. I do not exist from my own self.

 

Even the cosmos, cycling without beginning has no self existence. There is no place, no point that one can cling to as "I" and "mine."

 

If the universe, in it's entirety RIGHT NOW, even beyond the limits of all sentient beings experiences, arises due to the universe of the previous moment, so on and so forth without a starting point? It is not spontaneously arisen, is not self caused. Therefore, the entire universe and everyone in it, is also not spontaneously arisen, and is not self caused, but rather inter-connected since time without beginning, but also it is without self essence.

 

Thus everything flows without any real self reference, it's all just relative.

[Informer]

Maybe you missed the question as well, I didn't ask how you exist, I ask if you "Vajrahridaya" or whatever your real name may be, is existing?

 

I don't see how you guys make this so hard.

 

http://dictionary.re...om/browse/exist

 

1.

to have actual being; - Do you have actual being?

 

2.

to have life or animation - Are you alive?

 

3. to continue to be or live: Are you being alive?