Rara

@Bax44 The only other thing I can think about in addition to what people have said recently is that what really helped me is understanding or "reality". I won't waffle on here because I can go quite in depth but the fact of the matter is, whether sleeping or awake, you're in a dream. Everything is effectively a perception in which your mind is portraying a series of events. What is emotionally different from a nightmare or having a really bad day? Not a lot! And you will notice that you can have physical reactions from nightmares, right? Most common being heavy breathing, increased heart-rate and sweats. Emotional stress causes physical stress...but everything is mental right from the word go. So begin this practice: When in day-to-day activities, stop yourself every now and then in mid-flow and ask yourself "Am I dreaming?" Then mindfully touch something and just get used to the sensations. Then, before bed, begin mentally preparing yourself for whatever reoccurring scenarios/beasties you come across. Start thinking of a plot twist... Soon, you will be able to control the outcomes of these dreams...but firstly, you will be controlling your role within the dream, as opposed to you just being swept away by it.

Loving the tan line!

Yup. The research side of things pretty much confirms that Taoism as a philosophical movement didn't even occur until 300 years after Laozi supposedly existed. And the religion came much, much later. This is why I asked you, Dao Rain Dao, what you meant by "true Taoist". I struggle to see how a philosophy about the natural can still be seen as pure or "true" when put into an organised religion. If the Tao that is spoken is not the eternal Tao (to paraphrase) then what can any school/lineage really teach us about it?

How did you differentiate between the "true Daoist" and anybody else you came across...at retreats in the mountains etc? What did he teach you that led you to realise this "artificial creation"?

I read somewhere about the universe being one great vortex and that everything within it is mimicking it. And that our bodies are universes in themselves...

Absolutely...and I am eating meat again but still in the back of my own mind there is something telling me there's something up. I mean, I'm eating it less than I used to...so that is my way of "preserving life" - one thing that Chuang Tzu certainly puts forward in his philosophy. He ate meat, but also feels we should preserve life...within reason, I guess. Maybe my mind will be made up one day as to weather I really should be killing/eating animals but neither Chuang Tzu nor Lao Tzu will give me that answer! I just get freaked out when some "Taoist text" tells me that I'm eating evil spirits from an animal that is living out bad karma lol. I think I know what you're saying, and if so, I therefore completely get what you are saying

Hey! Yes please drop this in "Genera Discussion" and we can all discuss. No time to watch it now but I'll see it when I log into that thread again

Don't you feel that by leaving them there, and knowing that the next people that move in will kill them, shouldn't you do something to free them prior to this? Just going on the assumption that the next people that move in wont be as spiritual/sensitive as yourself?

Fascinating discussion. Once I had to get an army of ants out with cayenne pepper and talc. This was much more successful than using killer, as it meant that I didn't have to hoover up a load of corpses in the morning. There were a couple of deaths but better than the whole lot, right? We later got the outside of the house sealed up Last month I was staying with friends in Australia. A cockroach flew out from behind a chest of drawers one night. The angle was tight for me to catch it in a glass so my friend says, "move out of the way and I'll spray it. They carry diseases so we should just kill it". It was his house and didn't fancy arguing, so I watched as it was sprayed, then kicked about in pain on its back for half the night before finally dying. I didn't feel to great that night, but what could I do? It makes me wonder, is it justified to kill something if it's supposedly bad for something...like carrying germs and diseases. If we do, then aren't we being a bit messianic?

Back to this...very interesting stuff. I've been looking into vegetarianism recently which led me to this: http://www.taoistresource.net/art_dhoe_veg.htm Now, doesn't this seem quite dogmatic and a little Buddhist to you? A set of instructions rather than allowing us to figure this out for ourselves. Elsewhere I read that meditation will eventually make one want to consume less meat and alcohol anyway...rather than subscribing to what teachings are telling us to do. Just a little point I'm making about the dangers to turning the Tao into an organised religion... Well, not a ranking as such I guess...that implies hierarchy. What I meant was different levels of enlightenment. Some have it more than others... Allowing Heavenly Ones, Holy Ones, Perfected Ones and Sages to do their own thing is all well and good, but Chuang Tzu must be suggesting that by following his teachings, we work our way up there too. Otherwise, what would be the point in writing such a large text? Surely he is promoting the practice of meditation, or whatever else, that will lead us to enlightenment? Interesting how Chuang Tzu talk about those more advanced than Sages too. I'm pretty sure Lao Tzu spent more time speaking of Sages in TTC than anything else, potentially further and beyond. Just a separate chapter on Enlightenment but that's all I recall off the top of my head...

Thanks for this. Though I'm still struggling to understand how Confucius has so much wisdom in this chapter when in others he is way below par... Sure...so do you think he is implying that some that walk among us are "heavenly men"? Looks to me like rankings of enlightenment that is being described...

Hey Yes, I do remember you saying about his anarchist nature, which cuts through in the book. The impression I got when reading is that "knowledge" in itself it fundamentally useless...it's just one big game of chasing the next thing, then the next etc. But without it, our minds and bodies are cleared and simplified. Just like the animals don't waste their time with debates and wondering about what lies ahead. They just live. Hence the empty-mind meditation you speak of...but I question whether he practiced this formally, daily, or whether it was just his general, natural way of being. Perhaps he just walked about every day with this empty mind. If you get time, could you let me know where he references this meditation in the book? I must have missed it....then again, it's not like he is tongue-in-cheek when talking about things. I don't dispute that he was a mystic, but it's not overly emphasised. I feel that we can get a bit carried away with superstition. And why did a Taoist religion start I wonder? It was never required before...

I kept hearing the word "Tao" and it just resonated with me. Then I read TTC and realised it was me and that I had been lost for so long!

I tend to just steam with boiling water and eucalyptus. Seems to do the trick...but don't stress over formal meditation like ChiDragon says...just on getting yourself back to feeling 100%!

Yeah, they get wound up by all this talk of chi. Especially those who claim they can hit people using their chi. Thanks for the link! Best option I think. West Yorkshire, England

Haha, well, no. How many New Year's resolutions actually stick? I make resolutions daily...keeps my practice in check

Just wondering, how does one go about finding a decent teacher? I'm a Wing Chun practitioner and am curious about Qi Gong, but my teacher doesn't advocate it in the slightest...

I've been here! Blotchy face is it? Anyway, the fatigue seems to come from over-thinking. Contemplation drains energy to the max and I think a lot of us suffer from this misconception of Taoism... All this searching is futile as you already know what you are...you just don't find it by looking. Do the opposite and empty your head and forget everything. Then your nature is all that's left. All your answers will be there!

Going on the idea that what the Christian's believe is actually true. What if they did have a divine intervention and simply learned that actually no, he didn't NEED God, and that whole idea withing he religion was a misunderstanding... He may well see himself as a Christian, but that's because that angle is all he knows. But that's not to say he will need to follow a preconceived idea following his experience.

You've answered your own question...it says in here - you've identified you need to commit to your practice. That is all! Meditate, calm...on the breath. Gently, as and when you feel it's right for you. But keep it regular...and don't always feel it most be in the same spot in the same room always! Be mindful of what you're doing whenever you can...you can meditate on a bus you know (informally) but still worth it if you're losing your head at that moment of the day! and yes, keep it basic. Don't keep reading into things...things get dangerous sometimes and we all get a bit carried away. Maybe throw the internet away for a few days! Keep us posted. I'm "guilty" of such things myself so will be following this thread!

Just caught up with this thread. Wow...plenty here that balanced my opinion out!

Been giving this some thought and I think that the "Opt out" option as Stosh mentioned is very good for one's own sanity. Is patience really a virtue? Is endurance really necessary if we have the option NOT to put ourselves through it? Surely endurance should be trained willingly in moderation, in order to prepare for times when we have no choice but to endure. But in a forum where trolls/tyrants spring up left right and centre, this could REALLY test one's patience... I already feel that I endure enough in life. If we come to this forum to discuss philosophy in a mature setting, away from work and whatever other challenges ife brings, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm sure I'd be more comfortable if pests were just shut out by the community. Or ignored!

Very true to your last sentence. Thanks for adding this!