Spotless

We tend to see delusion as an early stage malady - it is an ever increasing malady and essentially how most try to “die” by perfecting according to Will.

2 minutes ago, mrpasserby said:

The purpose of Nirvana is same as the ultimate goal of everyone's life. The purpose of Nirvana is the ultimate goal in the path which every living or non living thing is pursuing (knowingly or unknowingly). And that is liberation of the cyclic chakra of birth and death.

 

Nirvana is the end of suffering while you're alive, and the end of rebirth after you die. The Buddha said all forms of life are unsatisfactory because of birth, sickness, and old age; eventually you will end up suffering if your alive.

 

The nirvana-in-life marks the life of a monk who has attained complete release from desire and suffering but still has a body, name and life. The nirvana-after-death, also called nirvana-without-substrate, is the complete cessation of everything, including consciousness and rebirth.

 

So this is saying to me that, 'I suffered 70 of intense training/working struggling, multiple partial deaths, many painful initiations=(functional spirit upgrades), literally *fought my way across the abyss. All the while thinking that I was evolving and creating a comfortable spirit self to live in, while all the time I was just going to go back to be a nothing within the milky ocean from whence I can fourth.' 

*the way of sincerity

The constraints of grasping (willfulness), the tyranny of desire to the liberation in Light.

 

Nothingness is Divine Essence - Unencumbered Radiant Light.

 

 

The repetition of moving to Self and moving to noise in Practice and “after practice” finds noise both more bearable and less bearable.

 

Dirty dishes sit in piles stashed in futures and pasts - in tensions of what to do and not do.

 

Self is not in this tension

 

Right practice is movement to Self not from tension.

We create dams 

We repair dams

We perfect dams

 

They are the summation of our tensions - karma

 

Grace in a critical mass finds us no longer in these tensions of willfulness 

 

The dams fall away enmasse

 

—

 

The deconstruction of dams in doing is the construction of diverters and or new dams. The construction of Pride - one who knows.

 

—

 

To gain all knowledge is to know nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, ralis said:

 

 

Would you elaborate as to how one reads it? Musical or tonal must mean in a specific way?

It was written to have specific effects on one when reading it.

 

It holds to certain frequencies relentlessly and beyond that I would only want to speak about it with those that have read through it twice.

 

It can be read through somewhat quickly in the first go or not and probably is best at a bit of a pace.

 

It is often given considerable reverence and that is good in order to give you the impetus to drive on through it.

 

It is not the greatest book - but it is a masterpiece in its construct.

 

Like a sustained high note breaks glass.

 

If and when you decide to read "Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson" it is meant to be read through. 

It is a musical book - a tonal book that is a Master Piece just as Gurdjieff said it is. It's content is not it's worth but the entire structure of it. It is a composition - that has very real profound effects - though few have an idea of what I am talking about either before or after reading it. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Beelzebubs-Tales-His-Grandson-Everything/dp/0140194738

On 11/11/2018 at 8:16 AM, Hannes said:

Yesterday I went to a presentation, given by a friend of mine, about the "fourth way".

She spoke about the philosophy of Ouspensky and his interactions with Gurdjieff and spoke about the book "In search of the miraculous".

 

In true turn of the century Russian style (before the Bolsheviks took over Russia) intellectual thought, his work seems to bear many similarities to the more esoteric teachings of Dao, Indian philosophy and some late German philosophy/psychology.

 

It seems so interesting that the last years all my searching and learning in different traditions and modalities seem to broil down to the same core of knowledge; and Ouspensky's work seems to be another one of those modalities (or maps of the territory like I like to call it) that seem to fit in with an underground thinking that has been going on as long as the history of written language.

 

Although from what I can see, I have a feeling I will appreciate the more scientific approach to these esoteric topics; since growing up without a strong cultural/religious tradition it is hard for me to find  myself in any of the more culturally based traditions.

 

Do any of the Bums out here have any comments on Ouspensky/ Gurdjieff? Any warnings or advice, or any kind of teaching they can offer?

 

All of the books are quite excellent - the Fourth Way - In Search of the Miraculous - Meetings with Remarkable Men and on and on including many other students.  They are in a fresh western wording and the Forth Way is Ouspensky's mostly verbatim accounting of the teachings of G.

 

Lets assume Gurdjieff is exceedingly profound and as fantastical as it seems he may have been.

 

Ask your friend - "if i awoke tomorrow" - self awakening - what would you be able to offer in the form of any clue as to what has transpired?

 

G often spoke of needing someone who had been outside the jail to shed some light on what it is like - what is the lineage that she can offer that has this living teaching?

 

Is your friend - friendly in the normal sense - or does she tend to be on the very serious side of seriousness?

 

I ask the last question because while G had a great and often very vulgar sense of humor - most in these groups tend to be nearly as stiff as a thin piece of glass. With perfection pictures that are beyond reason and very often fully ready to accommodate a tyrant in want of a shock.

 

Intentional speaking and intentional everything is indeed a fun exercise for a bit of time - and quite difficult for some - tolerating Roostering Alpha's in hopes of a real dressing down is more of a Christian exercise but often rampant in the inner meetings.

 

Take the teachings for what they are - old words in new wording - from a very flamboyant character. Gurdjieff was a con-artist,  thief and trickster by his own admission - a heavy drinker - a womanizer and definitely a man of Many talents. He moved about during exceptionally difficult times wherein lots of these talents were useful and enabling. In his teaching he often lead the students to complete drunken stupor and excess.

 

Does his teachings and those of Ouspensky have merit? - without any doubt - should you be wary - as wary as you should always be - until either you are safely back asleep or simply have moved on from worry.

 

As in all of this: Carry Salt and Measure Head

Take it all with a grain of salt and feel within and listen.

Measure your head often - if it has begun to swell look at what beliefs you have swallowed.

 

I know of few groups that think they have the inside track as much as Gurdjieff group members and fundamentalists/athiests.

 

 

From beginning meditators one often hears two complaints:

 

I feel pressure

 

It is boring

 

This is caused from the location of the Light of Presence and ones inclinations and habituations and willfulness.

 

Most humans have their attention in the forward part of the head or just outside of the forehead - with an inclusion of some of it generally still forward inside. The forward area is among other things where we analyze - it is the swarm of our habituated frequencies - it is our work desk for thinking and rethinking.

 

Trying to Be in this location with our Awareness and not have thoughts is for many something that will create pressure - like going to a bar and telling everyone your not there to drink and please don't bother me about it.

 

For some this is also an area of considerable clarity and dominance - it is the work desk - the drivers seat. Trying to Be in this location with Awareness is like sitting at your work desk and not working - sitting in the cockpit and sitting on the tarmac.

 

Simply be with Awareness - Presence in the center of the head - in other words just move back an inch or two.

 

-----

 

As this has progressed - Be in the central axis of your bodies:

 

From the perineum to the top of the head and just slightly back - the axis is the root, the trunk and the canopy

 

Be in this Axis - any where along it or in all of it

 

Feel it from the abdomen - upward

 

It is much easier to abide in the center of the head and / or anywhere in the axis.

 

there is an endless and effortless dissolving of channels and bodies - simply Be in the Axis - in Presence

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have not pursued this but I know of one institute that is solely dedicated to translating Tibetan works. It may well be that there is an English institute or group dedicated to translating the texts you would like to have translated and perhaps you could find such a group and present them with your list.

 

there is no question that as this relates to relatively esoteric teaching the translators would need to be very very specialized. A slight turn of a phrase can entirely change the messaging.

In the same context as Gurjieff one might also look at the many great works from Theosophy and at some of the great teachers that came from that “tradition” such as the well known Rudolf Steiner and the extraordinary Franklin Merrel Wolff:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0791419649?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

 

The Theosophy groups are generally little more than gatherings of politely interested folks who often invite interesting lecturers. But many of the books offer in Western terms superb introduction and clear thinking regarding practice. However - I am not talking about Blavatsky who was Gurdjieff’s double in so many ways.

 

She was interesting and certainly no fool - but ...

 

The Secret Doctrine is dribble compared to Franklins work copied above - and so is any of G’s - though I agree with G - B’s tales to his Grandson is a masterpiece - if read through in sequence.

33 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Gurdjieff is a very great man and he tells exactly what to do, the episodes recorded of him show what it means to be a real human being and live.

 

Ouspensky and those many "famous people" who follow in his wake are a disaster.

Let us remember - Ouspensky was not “in his wake” as an after thought - he was there and working with G in his writings, practice and doings.

 

His (“G’s”) efficacy in impressing people was top notch - in Waking them Up - very poor.

 

I can think of several Awakened teachers that were for a time and sometimes for many decades ardent students who Awoke after leaving the groups and attest that the G work was of no value or little value and also often concur that they were lost in heady appeal with elaborate and interesting dance and work but - not really associated with Awakening and in many ways replacing real work with a high form of song and dance and delusion.

I have read nearly all or all of both Gurdjieff and Ouspensky and was obviously enticed and fascinated enough to do so.

 

I was also a member of one of the many groups at one time and became friends with someone quite famous in the many groups that exist today.

 

The fundamental problem with what has come to us is the top heavy heady nature of the teaching and a general reliance on the accepted need for an Awakened teacher.

 

Some of the general concepts entirely taken from the east have been so well acclimated to clear English that it is hard to put the books down.

 

Such concepts/observations as “walking sleep”, “intentional suffering” and general references to automation within the noise of the illusions.

 

Further, one is enticed with an entire array of reasonings and labelings and mental notations in all sorts of things that pretty quickly one thinks they know something “secret” in a way and now it is a matter of “the tough work” upon oneself and the ending of all the cracks in the dam.

 

However - it is hard to find a more clueless group when it comes to actually achieving - nor groups more beset with extreme competition and judgement.

 

Self subjugation and Doing is chief among the habituations The groups unknowingly and knowingly hyper practice. Often knowing little to nothing about meditation.

 

If you do find yourself Awakened consider that in high probability - not one member of your group will rejoice, understand or not rebuff you.

 

At best you will be questioned to death in order for them to access if you are a man number 7 or some level or on what Ray - as if they have any slight understanding of the teaching/programming that they have read.

 

The group dynamic is awesome - but dries up in the sterility of the heady ness - at the time I could not have been more intellectual and all of it was intoxicating - luckily I had a strong base in real Yoga - with a far greater depth and not fragmented borrowing from a very charismatic leader.

 

I did enjoy the group - but it became quite clear that for all the finery and exceptional meetings - the reading of Carlos Castenada and others proved equally valuable if not more valuable as they did not offer such a complete detour.

 

I say “detour” because the top down approach is a bit like going to a bar in order to stop drinking.

 

As a side note:

Beelzebubs Tales to his Grandson should not be read here and there.

It should be read from one end to the other.

And then read again from one end to the other.

Otherwise you can toss it in the trash.

It is a vibrational work of art - the general content is and always was of no great value - it’s artistry and strength is in full readings start to finish. Gurdjieff himself would laugh at the thought that it’s parted out content was something more than bafoonery.

 

(I do not mean to imply that one should read all 1100 pages in one sitting - but rather that it is not a book you pick up and read out of order that is nearly always pithy and often any page is apt to be perfect on its own.)

 

 

 

Just a comment:

 

Very few make a clear distinction between sitting practices and meditation.

 

Doing vs Non-doing

 

This is not to demean sitting practices or standing practices - simply to clarify that various energetic “Doing” is not meditation.

 

 

 

 

A key to neutrality is “center of head”.

 

it is difficult to be disentangled from inertia’s of one’s habituations if Awareness is forward in the head or just outside of the head.

I had the pleasure of meeting Dorthy Maclean - she is quite wonderful and has spoken to many types of beings

including the spokesperson for a group of animals and areas.

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Maclean

 

I have done this as well but by no means am I adept in it as she has really practiced this over many years.

 

She speaks to the overseers of cities and countries - it was very interesting talking to her about these things.

 

She has at least one book out on it and she may still travel but I’m not sure - it was over 20 years ago.

 

Specifically - devas, local spirits, ondines, fairies, trees etc. For most of us speaking with Beings in the broader sense is easy by comparison to those mentioned above - though animals are also fairly easy.

 

 

I have spoken to cats in perfect English.

Cats and horses are among the easiest to communicate with.

Most communication is quite simple and direct.

Dogs are easy and birds are fast and fun - squirrels are often very open.

 

Everything is alive - absolutely everything. This attitude will help to understand this awareness.

 

Awareness in a 20 million year old rock May be different than a cars or a rug or a bug - but each has awareness.

 

Humans tend to be loud and in want of something - our energy is often oppressive and bossy.

 

We are extremely well exercised in willfulness and me-ness.

 

And we approach communicating with Other as though they are lower - or Angels and Higher Beings.

 

Very few exercise neutrality - Very Few even comprehend the idea of neutrality.

 

Anna below shares her experiences in an excellent interview.

 

The neutrality in the approach to animals and many other things she brings up has been my experience as well.

 

https://batgap.com/anna-breytenbach/

It is not a linear path - yet one can be lost in the linear.

 

One is “on” the Path or “in” the Way - in practice while not seeking in one’s seeking.

 

No striving to attain yet attaining 

 

The binding obscurance is habit and inertia

 

In Abiding Awakening all seeking ceases, stillness awakens - “practice” continues or not.

 

Awakening can become an island - quite a sweet one - it is an island as One though it may aleady have been in Unity Awareness or yet attain it.

 

Often one attains Unity Consciousness and thinks they have attained Awakening - so much falls away in the non-competition of newly arrived Unity Consciousness - But personality is still much remaining.

 

In Awakening by so many definitions - Abiding Awakening is Enlightenment - and it certainly will include the end of suffering and the end of seeking and may well include such as spontaneous creation and many other arising in non-effort.

 

One will find constant awareness even during sleep.

 

No dreaming

 

But by experience and not modesty it is hard to use the word Enlightenment easily - the massive expansion is seemingly endless.

 

The absurd energies becoming increasingly absurd 

 

The bodies endlessly refining

 

Specs of willfulness spit in the heat

 

pasts and futures all as one or none

 

The golden light evermore pervading 

 

Enlightenment- a finite word - is to tight

 

Awakening - Abiding Awakened - this is no common shift. Getting a taste of it is exciting but by no means is it Abiding.

 

Abiding Awakening is truly beyond words - but wordless does not ascribe an ended state.

 

An Enlightening State - the Awakened Abiding Awareness has embodied Self - the subtle bodies may be far from refined and a coarse sage may arise - a wide awake diamond with some un-polished facets.

 

The lines on the face of such a one will soften over time if growth continues - or as may be the case - residual urges lead to teaching too soon and words mixed with assumption.

 

So much falls away that much that has not can be overlooked. And light that is so bright it is unbearable but again and again this falls away - as fear has no place to land.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How to become less blind

 

Do not “know” that you cannot see

 

Do not “know” that it will take a great deal of work

 

Do not “know” that you must seek and find a master

 

Do not “know” what you believe

 

The basics in practice will bring to you all - the teachers will come - the teachings will arise

 

There is no mountain not within you - no teaching can hide from you

 

No master can refuse you

 

Be relentless in un-knowing

 

 

 

 

35 minutes ago, Jeff said:

A thought can be traced back to initial point of conception.  Sort of like a "door" of manifestation where the energy of it is initiated. Well beyond the conscious aspects of mind for most, that is why many think they have a "quiet mind" when it is really just quiet at the conscious level and they have not dug deeper into the subconscious aspects of mind.

 

But I would agree with what I think that you are saying that... Light body > Energy body > Physical body

 

The greater the "clarity" or complete integration with sort of pulling the subconscious into the realm of conscious, the more this is realized.  Kashmir Shaivism describes this well as beyond the local body mind, it is more like a universal (or shared mind).  As as things are cleared and integrated, one becomes and is known to drive all (Siva).

 

1.19.  śaktisandhāne śarīrotpattiḥ

By infusing his energy of will the embodiment of that which is willed occurs at once.

 

-Shiva Sutras

Now we are entering a departure where there is some agreement.

 

Your prior arguement has been from local mind and it is untrue.

 

In this new arena the use of conscious and subconscious is an unfortunate holdover to language of almost a century ago. And “mind” in this higher sense is far better stated as Emotive Awareness or Higher Emotion.The word “mind” points in directions that in no way resemble what is being pointed to here.

 

1.19.  śaktisandhāne śarīrotpattiḥ

By infusing his energy of will the embodiment of that which is willed occurs at once.

 

-Shiva Sutra

 

”will” is a reasonable term in use here but “known certainty” is much closer.

 

 

“Well beyond the conscious aspects of mind for most, that is why many think they have a "quiet mind" when it is really just quiet at the conscious level and they have not dug deeper into the subconscious aspects of mind.”

 

In Awakening dreams stop.

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Looking further, one finds...

 

Doctors believed she had suffered irreversible brain damage and was on the point of death, but it later came to light that she was in fact in a deep drug-induced coma.

 

Seems more about clueless doctors and people using the term brain dead.

You have looked for the examples that support your theory - but if you are going to be fair quote the many that do not.

5 hours ago, J Warg said:

@Starjumper mentioned the book The Magus of Strovolos somewhere in this forum; I happened to find it in the internet so I started reading it and I’m really enjoying it (thanks )

 

The “magus” mentions beings like elementals; I have also read about these creatures in other books / articles under the names of thought forms, larvae, etc.

 

In the book Daskalos says:

 

“We give birth to such elementals with our thoughts and sentiments. Once 'projected' they have an existence of their own and can affect those around us that 'vibrate' on the same frequency”

 

So I'd like to ask those with the ability to see these (and others) invisible beings that supposedly surround us on a daily basis:

 

Are these beings really out there interfering in our lives? How is that even possible? Do we human beings really create beings with an independent existence that easily? Are they somehow intelligent beings? Do they have feelings?

 

I’d be more interested in reading about your experiences, not the theory of this topic.

This is a reference to a relatively harmless small group that enjoys what excites you. They do not have intention to harm and have little to work with - they are very simple and automated.

 

However they can cause great mischief through no fault or malign intent of their own - nor are they “negative beings” or stuck beings.

 

They enjoy what excites you and act to foster that excitement.

 

If one is mired in mind loops of hate or highly positioned politics or religion or lust or raging passions - they will help to facilitate all aspects in you that help to promote inducing the tipping points to the rising up of those often out of control aspects of dissipation in you.

 

They can do this in helping you to eat or drink poorly, by resonating to vibrations that irritate or stimulate,

by blocking pathways or rerouting as best they can.

 

They do not do this diabolically but by acclimating to your addictions and simply coming to mechanically “understand” the trigger points of your automation and trance properties. Nearly all humans are asleep entirely and don’t take a great Consciousness to find the automated habituations.

 

As these wider swings subside - these little “entities” subside. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

These are examples of a coma. As you can see from a headline that your link is actually quoting...

 

Moments from death: Student, 22, in a car crash coma WIGGLED her toe to stop doctors turning off her life-support machine.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3814394/Student-22-left-coma-horror-car-crash-saved-wiggled-toe-moments-doctors-turn-life-support-machine.html?ICO=most_read_module

You did not read very far

One had zero brain waves for 17 hours.

These are only a few dozen examples - Many pronounced dead by several doctors - Many about to have their organs removed.

 

But aside from proofs all of which will probably be inadequate for and ever expanding definition of “brain dead” - what initiates a thought?

 

are thoughts initiated by a thought?

 

or is it a stirring of something else?

 

The physical is preceded by the subtle bodies - it is not the other way around. The gross physical body is not the cause nor the house of thought - it is a relative interface and nothing more. It is encumbered light until it is not.

 

The brilliant light which it can attain is preceded in the subtle bodies and in that which has always been.

 

Thoughts are more like leaves.

3 hours ago, neti neti said:

Perhaps thought, intent, and action are unified, merely appearing to be linear in their manifestation due to the phenomena of time.

 

My drunk uncle Alan Watts once rambled on about how decisions and their execution are one and instantaneous, regardless of having seemingly originated in thought. He offered a few skill-based examples, like firing a rifle or the shooting of an arrow. One may have thought about it, even imagined going through the motions of that perfect shot in their mind's eye.

 

But in the moment of action, there is no thought involved. In fact, if one thinks about doing it in that moment... instead of just squeezing the trigger, or just lifting up and drawing back, aiming and releasing in one fluid thoughtless doing... then one usually just yanks the trigger or bow and easily misses the mark. Who would've thought that too much thought could be an impediment to success?

 

A noteworthy mention of his, is that this is why some people seem to effortlessly be able to perform impeccably on their very first undertaking, while those who've been perfecting the art their entire lives stand by in disbelief with not much more to say than... "Must be beginner's luck."

 

I believe many athletes and musicians alike can attest to such experiences of watching themselves perform the incredible, immersed in the moment, making any sort of testimony of premeditation, and do please forgive the pun... an afterthought.

Reminds me of one of the first times golfing - I had a putter, and iron and a wood. I was under par and got a hole in one!

Lets just say that was not replicated.