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You can find below the complete cut & paste from Vmarco: Non-Meditation January 22 · 12:00 PM Flying Star Non-meditation is a topic that will surely upset millions who have vested meaning, money, and measure, sitting on a cushion. Millions believe that meditation is the path to happiness, compassion, god realization, and enlightenment. Surely, meditation has provided solace to many, but solace is a temporary thing. Lao Tzu purportedly said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear." Who is honestly aware of anyone realizing happiness, compassion or enlightenment through meditation? (see the disscusion "Compassion?"). Before anyone gets too upset, the topic here is "Awareness of Non-meditation," that is, to simply be aware that meditation may merely be a stepping stone, not the goal. Hui Neng reportedly scolded his monks for spending too much time sitting in meditation....He said that meditation is unnecessary, and warned that such practice can easily become a narcotic. Many Western meditators are so intoxicated by their practice that they see themselves as superior to those who don't formally meditate, like drug addicts see themselves as better than non-users. Few people seem to realize that Buddha did not uncover enlightenment through meditation,...he realized enlightenment when he ceased meditating. Meditation nearly killed him. Historically, Sakyamuni was near dead from meditation, more bone than skin, when a young girl named Sujata (likely a dakini) offered him some food (perhaps rice cooked in milk). Some say an appreciation filled him from this meal, and as he recovered his physical strength, through the state of appreciation, he realized the Dependent Origination from which suffering arises. The American Esther Hicks said, "We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you are a vibrational match to Source." The State of Appreciation; that is threshold to enlightenment, not meditation. Wei Wu Wei said, "The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life." Meditation is in the head. Jigme Lingpa said, "The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...." (see the discussion "Heart-Mind"). Those familiar with the Short Path of Dzogchen have likely heard of non-meditation,... resting in the evenness of being, that is beyond hope and fear. Meditation belongs to of the world of hope and fear. Is there a more dishonest, perniciousness word than hope? hope n. from ME. hopa, an expectation. 1. expectation of something desired; anticipation of some future event. 2. a guess or belief. 3. that which gives hope; a substance or object hoped for; an expected payoff. No matter what level we wish to view it from, hope is false. Hope is an anticipation of the future; thus it must arise from a predisposition, a belief, and attachment to the past. Hope implies lack,...how else could we possibly define it? Hope is for something we think we don't possess. How could hope ever be expressed through an Open-Mind or Open-Heart ? The belief of hope is a barrier that obscures the present. In all samadhis (or states within the 6 consciousness' that preceed enlightenment) except sahaja, the practioner or yogi continues to go and come. Lao Tzu said, "the Tao doesn't come and go." Buddha said, "the Tathagata does not come and go." Refuge in sahaja (or Short Path), which is not preoccuppied with meditation or yoga techniques, is a permanent and effortless state of realization. Kagyu, the fourth stream of mastery, says, "In a state of non-meditation, you attain [the vividness beyond concept, imagination, and projection]. As Beate Stolte said, "to place yourself in unfabricated present awareness." Of course it is difficult for someone blissed out on opium Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!.. "To go, to come, beyond going and coming, into complete going and coming, where enlightenment is welcomed" "...no belief is true; gurus, meditation, and spiritual teachings are all gentle deceptions meant to soothe the inner coward, not forge the inner hero." Jed McKenna -------end excerpt------------ take directly from a piece at: http://www.meetup.com/Full-Spectrum-Consciousness/events/93980722/ How was it that the Robotic texture of Vmarco's original quote shown at the top, lead me to clip only one paragragh and find his article to be not an original to this blog but a cut and paste from another time and place. I had mentioned time and again to tell us something from you - and you refused. And now we see all along that your thread was nothing original to begin with - you cut and paste your position - how often do you do this? Is this your agenda? Cosy up to the computer and Cut and Paste what appears to be actual genuine responses to someone?

You are talking about your idea of me and your assumptions regarding that idea you have of me. I think we are all interested in what you might actually have to say.

Thank you - very helpful

Looking forward to hearing from You at some point Vmarco

It is true - to get high I don't want to pretend that we have come to this conclusion in the same way, but I could not agree more with the wording. If you have found your path - you have no need or want for any of these. Not because you have come to the conclusion that they are worthless. Because you no longer need to go to those watering holes - you have your own well now. These places used to be built by standards lost to modern architects - they create vibrations that have very tangible fields. They bring you to a higher vibration - a very honorable one - the effect is like partaking in a higher food. Some of the highs have to do with the Religion going on in them - and for these a tent will do fine: Some of the practices - such as those of the Baptist and Fundamentalist - particularly of the "deep south" variety - they create out of body experiences - not the type I would recommend to anyone - but they are powerful transmedium experiences and trance states. Suggestability reaches states on par with hypnosis. Its like a sugar high on steroids - if you could see the show you would be amazed at just how many beings can be in one church at the same time. (or just how many beings can be in one body at the same time) The method used is exactly the same one used in TV "Buy it Now" Infomercials - start the pounding out low and constant - keep the momentum - add more sugar (enticements) - build the speed - add the testimonials - build the pitch - and bam - your audience is high as a kite (and out of their bodies) - now you say "call this number - operators are standing by" and suddenly you find a church basket in your hands and you are putting your food money in the basket. But wait - there's more!

Love it! I like the 3 interlocking circles - excellent!

""A healthy development of the third eye in my practice has to do with consciously creating imaginations for each of the five senses, sustaining them for 5 minutes without interruption. Sustained practice of inner stillness, and purifying the character as expressed in the temperaments or elemental balance."" Is this a Tibetan discipline or? "" And I start my Taiji and or qi gong from the Niwan the center of the head, just brushing through it recognizing stillness there, then to focus energy in the tan tien."" I do the same

Your post has so many great quotes - did you have anything you would like to add that you have actually come to "know" Nothing you quoted was in context and much of what you related is out of sink with the teachings of the teachers you quoted. Solace is best found from a pet or a friend - I have not found solace from meditation and other practice. We can find short quotes from every master in history that will tell us in so few words that "we are but a moment away" from enlightenment. Over rating anything is just exactly that - it is projection. Broad strokes of indifference may feel manly but they are as dog headed as they are impish. Your first five paragraphs are pure robotics - dropping out of you as unconsciously as bumping into walls in the dark. Try speaking from yourself - you will find you don't "know" so much.

When you go on your fast just listen to your body. It can be a little bit like riding a horse - you may need to lead it out of the barn and on to the road to get on your way but then you will pretty much both be on an adventure together. If you have set aside a 10 day window for your fast and you have prepared yourself with the knowledge of just how great the experience is for you, then you will find it pretty amazing with the 3rd day being the only day that is pretty grungy while at the same time pretty inspiring - it was for me on my first fast. I don't know if I mentioned that on my first fast - when I was still in my teens - it was a water fast - I woke up on the 3rd day and went to the bathroom. When I looked in the mirror it looked like my nose had a 3 day old beard! I am not exaggerating - I really had to take a close look - and it looked like hair - it turned out that my pores had expunged themselves pretty much in unison during the night and I was lucky enough not to have smudged this event so that I could see it for myself. by the 5th day you will feel incredibly good and you will be surprised at how your energy will surge but with the most natural tone to it. Have a great time!

I spent several years in intensive meditation and yoga - 2-4 hours a day, fasting, vegetarian diet, breathing etc. The very week that I decided to end the practice because I was not "moving beyond", because no real sign posts of higher realms had been attained (though I could stop my thoughts - which my some measure was a miracle) - that very week I attended one last lecture in a group I had been also working with - it was a Gurdjieff / Ouspensky group. During the lecture my 3rd eye opened. During the same evening I had very clear and verified Telepathy. The 3rd Eye is not just clairvoyance - it is a whole world of things: Knowing starts to occur. Some times you see futures. In the beginning your mind interrupts or abridges these experiences - ones surprise interrupts them - dis-trust stops you from acting upon them - a whole different world comes into your world slowly for the most part. The following is an example of a practical application that I did not act upon last summer: I was looking for some dried nutritious soups for my 95yr old mother in the soup section of a health food store. My wife and son were off elsewhere in the store. Out of nowhere I saw clearly and vividly my 5yr old son hitting me in the nuts. Normally I would change that future and not cast it off - but it was soooo out of where I was at the time mentally that it slid off me like nothing. Less that a minute later I turned to my right at just the time my son came around the corner and he swung his right arm just perfectly smack dab into my nuts - just about dropped me to the floor in pain and he was in tears! I could have dissipated the energy in that future and changed the outcome without so much as a millisecond of attention but I was "in the labels" of the various soups and not reading them from my space. This awareness of where you are in your space is also something that comes with the 3rd eye - you become very aware of when you are in it - and so - you become very aware of when you are not. This is also a phenomenally practical side effect if you are trying to awaken. I have saved my life several times seeing a future that I have altered - it can also save on speeding tickets. But this is just the small stuff. Knowing also takes place - it is hard to explain what all comes with it - just as it is with Seeing. This is not "the big" prize but the 3rd eye is way beyond most attainments. Again, what you have attained with regard to mental control is the big throttle on this - you will receive almost nothing from this unless you have fairly strong neutrality and the ability to withhold thought or at least judgement. (actually it is hard to receive "almost nothing" from this but huge chunks become more available with experience and control) Because of this 3rd Eye, your worlds will fall apart - one after another. You will come to know that you do indeed know nothing. I think this can be considered as truly practical if one is seeking to pull aside the veil. It makes your world very different than it is for others - you are not in their world any longer and you cannot really share it with anyone because it is unfolding constantly. During the 70s in the USA it means you just left most if not all of your teachers in the dust. .

It took me some time to decide to "go for it" onto the spiritual path when I was young. My background chatter was all against it - but my scientific assessment was solid: I had done all the prep work and my mental capacities appeared in good order. I would give it due diligence Fasting Yoga Vegetarian diet I cleansed my body I meditated 2-4 hours a day My Yoga exercises included headstands, breathing, etc. I would give myself several years. If I did not experience any of the typical advanced sign-posts without forcing anything - then it would only affect me in a positive way so I had nothing to loose and everything to gain. If nothing came along, I knew my mental acuity would increase, my overall state of awareness would increase, my hand - eye coordination would increase, my patience would increase and a whole pile of other proven positive effects of meditation/yoga. At the end of several years I decided that I was done - I had experience nothing that would be conclusively considered outside the realm of what one might experience doing what i had done. I was not angry or in any angst whatsoever. I had experience some amazing things and learned to control my thoughts - that was a real feat given my normal headiness. Stopping thought - not mind blowing but not a bad thing to learn. Anyway - I was done and I had given it a very real open minded space of several very real years. That week I had one last lecture in a group of seekers that I attended - and there in the middle of the lecture - my 3rd eye opened. During that same evening I had very clear telepathy which was at once verified several times while it took place. Since that time I have always been engaged in this seeking, and I have been learning from seeing. There is nothing in seeking that requires the loss of ones reasoning. Rational reasoning is what allows you to reach points where you are able to set it aside, teach it to sit and roll over. What at some point takes place is that you can rely on Knowing without the haunting of fear or distrust. The Knowing and the Seeing I am speaking of, can, as has been the case for me, take years to expand and understand - it is everything you read about and far far more.

What a beautifully framed question - and i am in the same quandary as you. i have always liked the vegetarian diet and now the vegan diet for so many reasons but I become a methane plant on these diets. When I first started very intense practice (40 yrs ago) I became a vegetarian for 4 years - the methane problem never left me - but is was less then with the dairy and yogurt and kefir. I read a good book then called "Are you confused" , it set the basis for pretty much the rest of my life. I tried the meat/fat thing for some time - probably because I like bloody meat - but it is simply unhealthy and I don't like the "low" it puts in my energy mix. Forks Over Knives in conjunction with the China study and the piles of other studies make very convincing cases with many excellent case studies for long periods. The Paleo Diet is popular now and plays on logic but it looks more like a salesman's dream than a great diet. Regarding Olive Oil - Coconut is apparently far superior - at least make sure your Olive Oil is fresh and keep it in the refrigerator - it oxidizes pretty swiftly. Presently I am Vegan and leaning into Gluten Free - I feel very good at this time - but frequently make the paint peel with the side effects. Today I went to my sons school play and had to plan in advance not to eat much of anything because I did not want people to suffer from my diet. (I am exaggerating here a bit because vegetarian gas does not generally have the sulfur odor that is the real killer) Sorry to be so morbid. From a meditative standpoint - vegan has been the best for me and so I am tweaking it to fit. It take time to develop a full fun easy experience - Trader Joe's makes it seem pretty easy. Now here is something of interest - I had a "live blood" analysis done recently and I have decided to purchase my own Live Blood / Dark Field microscope because of the analysis I had done! (I manufacture specialty underwater cameras and scopes so I don't have to pay the big bucks they want for them in retail) What an eye opener - a good friend was so impressed with the one he had done that I did it to! You can actually see how you (your blood) are doing inside in real time up on a big screen - check into it online - it has been used in the east for quite some time.

I have used lemon water - it is useful in the enema as well. I have heard so many good things about using salt here that I will probably try it on the next fast which I think I will do in the coming weeks. Though I have never experience any negative effects from my fasting. Only once did I have some discomfort - i decided to walk up a 20 story building well into a fast - maybe 10 or 15 days - I felt so fantastic and had so much energy it was incredible. But the fatigue that set in afterward from the climb up - my body sent a very strong signal to end the fast and I did slowly bring it to an end. You can do all sorts of physical things - I ran businesses, swam - hiked, sailed and everything - but marathons are not something you should do. Also avoid lots of heavy thinking/analytical stuff. Fast spacial things are not so good - but driving is fine. If you drive a forklift in a warehouse - I would not be fasting during that job.

Their is tremendous practical value in the opening of the 3rd eye.

Wow - Silas! Please do not put your mis-interpretations into my mouth: "You are saying that if someone is able to open the 3rd eye, what they see will polarize them, will make them "categorize", and so violates the Principle of Equivalance or Non-Distinction" I said nothing what so ever of the sort. Wow! Please let us know how in the world you came to that conclusion - and please - if you are going to quote me - put it in context. (do omit prefacing sentences) And Silas - you are looking at ways to teach this - to others?

Their are 8 basic Qi Gong exercises and in my teaching they include breathing which i believe is extremely important to the exercises. (I mention this aspect because I went to one class that did not include breathing and it was the only class I took from them) I am not certain about what i am about to say but I think it is very likely: i believe that if you get the 8 basic exercises down and did nothing but them for quite some time - you would gain a great deal. I am also not sure how much a good teacher is necessary in the initial stages - I did not start this as a "new" student. I was taught something when I was around 18 by a yoga instructor and it rang true for me: If you learn just the basic exercises (of yoga) and practice them everyday - your practice will unfold all you will need to know. Most people do not know that Yoga is/was largely meditation - today we see allot of what I call "sport yoga" which is basically stretching exercises using yoga postures. Meditation does a great many things but many of the habituations we have regarding how we perceive things, take them in, project on to them or identify with them are very hard to break away from. Meditation dissolves this so to speak but it is quite subtle and you can doubt your progress and you can easily stay habituated though it may take another form. Mechanical exercises such as Qi Gong and Yoga postures aid meditation tremendously by "physically" moving energy through ones entire space and regular work like this helps to break down these habituations partly because they consistently bring vitality to areas of "doubt", areas you avoid, areas you protect, areas you do not own. One of the very first hip transplants was on a German Shepard - Joel was Shep's master and was working on this whole transplant thing partly out of his garage. Shep got hit by a car and Joel decided to make a new hip for Shep. In conjunction with the medical school he fashioned the hip and the transplant was done. Everything went very well and Shep recovered quickly but he maintained a limp - actually he ran around on three legs. Joel said - "he doesn't have a limp - he just thinks he does - we need to find him a bitch in heat and he will forget he has a limp" Joel took Shep to a breeding facility for a few weeks and he lost his limp. Mechanical means for cleaning out your energy patterns or moving energy into and through areas where it is sluggish such as fasting, breathing, Qi Gong and Yoga postures are very helpful and can trigger big leaps in your practice. Regarding the 3rd eye - working on neutrality - non-judgement - be in the present - quieting the mind - stillness. These are very important to awakening the 3rd eye - but not for the reasons you may think. Lets say you awaken the 3rd eye - or someone were to do it for you - it will be of little use to you and it may make you go mad if you have not worked on the qualities mentioned above. You cannot "see" from judgement, you cannot "know' from projection, you cannot see "what cannot be", and you cannot see what will make you run from and hide. You will not be able to "be" with a "seeing" - at once you will categorize and in that instant it will be gone. If you manage to get past the above problems - by squeaking past - you will be inclined to land on the wrong shore - it will seem you have arrived well but you will sit on that same shore for a very long time.

My 3rd eye opened when I was 22. I had been practicing Yoga intensely for several years - initially Hatha and then Raja. I was also involved with a Gurdieff / Ouspensky group. This and many other things happened along the way. I would say that other than meditation and mindfulness in general - one of the most important factors is working on neutrality. Certainly as one begins really working with the clairvoyance and knowing, neutrality becomes increasingly helpful. I was not doing any particular 3rd eye meditation or training when this happened. It is true - you can go inside someone - outside and around - you can easily peer into a distant room. It is not usually crystal clear but you typically see what is useful. You can also see futures and you can change them if you learn to trust them. The more you trust them, the more you see them - and they are very clear images for me. Recently I was asked to look in on a friends father in a coma in Brazil. I could not understand why the three people i saw in the room were wearing gloves and coats (in Brazil) but I clearly saw a young girl and two adults in coats and gloves. I asked my friend the next day if it was winter in the area of Brazil where the hospital was and he said "no - why do you ask?" I told him and he said his father had an infection and everyone was required to wear coats and gloves. The 3rd eye is not the experience that you may think it is - it takes time to adjust to it - time to trust it - time to put it together so to speak. Much of it is "knowing" in addition to the seeing. Some things are very clear and vivid but they are not always that way. Do not believe in any set idea regarding how long it will take - if you do - then for you it will be true. I do not believe in shortcuts and have never sought to use them - do not force any of this. If you begin to see a sort of tunnel that fluxuates on the sides as you meditate - you are closer than you think. I am taking Qi Gong now with a Shaolin Master and it is really great to have a teacher who also has his 3rd eye open. He is the second teacher that I have had that also had this. (It makes for a whole different conversation). He does not need to say much because I can see and feel the energy - I got into Qi Gong because I realized I was "doing" Qi Gong but did not know what I was doing exactly. Once I found out what I was doing I wanted to take classes. Then I found this Shaolin Master that just "happened" to be starting a teaching about 3 minutes from my house just when i started looking for a teacher. For some time I was his only student. Starting Qi Gong after 40 yrs of practice is exciting - and with so many enlightened teachers emerging it is about as good as it gets!

I read up on fasting prior to my first fast and I am extremely glad that I did for several reasons. I never had any doubt regarding what it was all about, how great it was for me and that my body would love me for it. I only ever started a fast when it was the "right" time and my body was not going to be in a situation that stressed it. Given all the research that I did about fasting - I came to the clear conclusion that I should do an enema. Ending the fast was something one should do with the same care as starting the fast. I was not a fan of the idea of doing an enema - it is my hope that no one is a "fan" of enema's - but the facts outweighed the angst. It is pretty rude to think that you are going to stop eating and your system is going to clean out the garbage in your physical space and yet you decide to leave a bunch of garbage stuck in your alimentary canal. Too many very good authors recommended an enema. My first fast went off without a hitch - i felt great - because my body and I were completely prepared for what was ahead, we were relaxed and excited about going forward. When the third day came - it was ugly good and interesting all wrapped up into one. We have never experienced hunger pains - though I have been clearly "told" in a moderate voice from my body when I needed to end the fast and so I always did. Most of my fasts have been 18 to 23 days. I think only 3 have been shorter. My first fast was a water fast and my last one was a water fast. I think at this point I prefer the water fast just for the sake of its purity - not only does my body get the rest but I don't have to do any planning regarding what to juice, what broth to make, food shopping, cleanup etc. - Just a total vacation and clean-out.

In response to Tibetian Ice: I do think "trance" is something to be mastered if you are going to practice it. I also think it is for the most part something to be avoided. I am pretty certain I made that quite clear. However, trance states do have their place in these disciplines as you can plainly see. If you are going to play around with trance - then do it with the awareness that it is something not to be taken lightly. Clearly start and stop trance work and be very certain to take yourself out of trance when you are done - that was the basic communication. Regarding my "misunderstanding" : Given the quote you offered - the first paragraph was everything I said it was. I understand the word "equipoise" and perhaps Allan was having a lapse on this paragraph. The lower half of the quote was quite good - though mostly great quotes from other teachers by Allan. Regarding his pedigree - he is also someone who started teaching on the subject within 2 years of starting way back in the early 70s. In my dealings with the International Interfaith Council I had the good fortune of meeting with a great many revered spiritual teachers with all sorts of badges and credentials,. They tend to write lots of book and give seminars. It was eye-opening during our considerable talks at just how blinded so many of them were. Regarding degrees, my wife has one of her degrees in Comparative Religion from Harvard - it means nothing regarding any intimate knowledge of any particular practice. I have also been practicing for over 40 years. Your point regarding my "Kundalini Episode" was a mixed bag: It was not a Kundalini episode - I put it up there for other reasons and I have since taken it down. There is a limit to what can be discussed here and still make sense. I was describing something far different than your understanding of it - but it was entirely my fault regarding that - saying in one short paragraph what I was trying to put forth was unacceptable.

A quote from Tibetian Ice: <Hi Certain types of trance can lead to dementia. This is a very interesting excerpt about this subject. Consider the effects mentioned in it about experiences in sensory deprivation tanks. The concepts disccussed below do not bode well for TM and AYP's deep meditation.. Quote In the state of meditative equipoise, only the aspects of awareness, clarity, and joy of the mind appear, and all one's other sense faculties remain dormant. Thus, while one's consciousness seems as if it has become indivisible with space, one lacks any sensation of having a body; and when rising from that state, it seems as if one's body is suddenly coming into being. When genuine quiescence is achieved, one's attention can effortlessly be maintained for hours, even days, on end, with no interference by either laxity* or excitation. `````````````````B. Alan Wallace. Balancing The Mind: A Tibetan Buddhist Approach To Refining Attention (Kindle Locations 931-935). Kindle Edition.>> A very well researched article from someone who apparently does not "actually" understand much of what they have compiled. This opening statement is actually put together very poorly and is not speaking about advanced meditation levels - it is very simplistic and misleading and reveals at once the somewhat beginning nature of this student. Meditation is not some sort of mind meld with the Universe - in so many ways that is perhaps the objective. As one progresses in meditation they will come back to being in the body and not out of the body during most of their meditation. It will take time for some to recognize when they are drifting off into a trance state and when they are not. Mastery of trance states can take a very long time and it is certainly in a trance state that "all cessation of sense" may take place - you are in fact not at home so to speak. But as you come back to practice within your body, and as you progress, you are not unaware of your body - you are not identified with it - it has no hold on you - you reside within your vessel in stillness - but certainly not lacking in awareness of it - obviously you are not focusing on it - why would you be - unless it needs to pee or needs repositioning. We sleep walk by day - rarely out of trance and most of the "masters" sleep walk by night as well. Show dogs are often hampered by inbreeding. None the less - the lower half of the quoted article is very good.

Flolfolil pretty much nailed that on the head. Now regarding jerks and tremors - they are caused by so many things that it is far too vast a subject for the topic at hand - though I would be very interested in hearing more about what jerks or tremors Flolfolil had and how he got rid of them in 3/4 of a year. Actual practical info may be very helpful to someone in this topic. Only some seizures involve spirit possession - a very good friend and former teacher Lewis Bostwick was a very powerful psychic all of his life and studying seizures was something he did and that we talked about on occasion. My 3rd eye opened when i was 22. I met Lewis about 9yrs later. We also lost a friend to a violent seizure attack. In studing transmediumship and working with transmediums as well as working with beings without bodies, I became very familiar with vibration - lower - higher - finer coarser - earth - cosmic etc. Meditation - the type that does not include trance - I say this because the distinction has been blurred - is very helpful to everyone. What is not taught in the books and what very few masters would have a chance to say to a student with a propensity to seizures is this: Student initially starting on the path always do the following - and it is only right that they do this - we all try to feel something. We would like to see something as well but at the very least feel something. A chakra spinning, some meridian, perhaps a smidgen of someones aura - even a pets aura - any aura will do. It would be fantastic if our teacher would just levitate and dispell any doubts we have. Touch us with their Chi - read our mind or send us on a through a wall and into another dimension. They don't - at least not too frequently. So we are left at this very wide entry gate looking at all the different paths and we devour everything we can in the way of books and local lectures, demonstrations and now - all the online YouTube stuff - some of which is off the wall excellent. We start meditation - maybe Yoga - Qi Gong - maybe 20 things at once. We buy a crystal because we hear that they amplify energy and we play with holding it in one hand and moving it over our finger tip chakras or our palm chakras. (most of us have a crystal somewhere in our drawers) As we begin actual practice we invariably tend toward wanting to open everything - our chakras, our channels, and we also tend to want to "raise our vibration", and some of us want to speak with "angels", do astral travel, healing work, chanting etc. By the time we actually start we have become somewhat of an "authority' on many metaphysical things (that is of course until we are standing in front of a real teacher and we quickly come to understand that if we put all of our "knowledge" into a thimble it would not be visible to a eagles eye. (do not misunderstand me - you should prepare yourself - you should intend to study and not be duped by yourself and others - you will find here and there in the writings of almost all the sages - that a good and healthy intellect is often considered as key in attaining enlightenment). And of course - as soon as your start working with a teaching and a school the first thing you need to do is "stop all the banter" - "quit thinking so much" - "just stop, breath". So here you are - practicing for real - it is amazing the way you feel - you didn't do practically anything and already you feel like never before!!! Perhaps you have a dream - a trance experience - you feel so much energy - like a rocket ship! Perhaps for the first time you are "really letting go of the pain" or "the past". Whole vistas start to feel achievable - !!! You want to grab your friends and wake them up to this stuff - thier are not enough hours in the day! And you like to leave all your energy fields on as much as possible - opening up is what its all about right?!! Actually - what you are doing is leaving all the doors open to your house - at the same time you are leaving all the lights on and playing the stereo at full blast (this is pretty much how us guys do it - women are a bit more subtle but not by much - they don't usually play the stereo as obnoxiously loud). Forgive me for this phenomenally long post/novel When you do your practice - be aware of starting and ending points. Be aware of your diet - all of your diet - the food, the media, the air, the friends etc. Your energy will increase many fold within a very short time. You may not even notice just how much it has increased, and this is for several reasons. Lets say you used to "live" in a very limited portion of your space. In that space you felt very much alive but missing something. Now, your energy encompasses much much more of you and you are really owning that space, but you are not as vividly pointed as before. So you may actually be filling the whole glass now but the grounds are no longer visible. For those of you here - concerned about seizures - you already know about your food diet and the importance of watching it. You will also want to take special care in opening and closing your doors. Walking around with "your space wide open" is not good for anyone - and most teachers overlook this or do not understand it much but know that continuous work along the path will take care of it - which is true for all but those who end up in the loony bin or commit suicide or are suddenly able to drink about 4 times as much alcohol. More on this later - I have to go ...

To More_Pie_Guy HP Lovecraft and The Magnus of Java? Can you speak from experience. You are a master of cut and paste - we get that. You have posted other peoples content to the sum of 2035 posts. Of the little that you actually write, it is almost entirely reactive and thoughtless. Look at your last two post - blah blah blah and then cut and paste. Your last post - does not have even one word from you - you cut and pasted a line from one of my posts and then you cut and paste what you apparently consider retorts or enlightening fragments from someone you do not understand. You seem utterly entranced by your open air circle jerk - the mechanical man. Make an attempt

Did someone tell you they "each had to be woken from the meditation"? LOL! It would be interesting to know what they were doing. Hours of meditation will generally make one wide awake and not needing to be awoken. Perhaps they were young monks. Or perhaps they were doing some trance work and the bell helped them to regain their meditation space - quite probably that is what was going on. The two are different but I am beating a dead horse on this topic it seems. It may also be that for some teachings what is called meditation by some includes trance states but regardless - It is good to make a distiction between awareness meditations that are not intended to be trance states and sitting with closed eyes in a trance state that you are also calling meditation. Trance states have all sorts of excellent uses - but as you come out of a trance state, a bell may be helpful to have at your side and you should be sure to take time to really come out of trance. (this is why they use a bell in most cases - not to wake you up, but to bring you out of trance) Breath in deeply, perhaps rub your face and head. Touch the floor. Really be sure you come out of trance and are fully back in your body. It is not a good thing to leave your trance, stand up and walk around or go to bed still in a trance state. This is common to those without teachers and also very common with poor teachers who should actually not be teaching. (far more common than not and ofen passed on from teacher to student sometimes for generations). Trance work is one of those states that comes as a sort of by-product on the path. It becomes easier to do and the results are more interesting and you can play with it quite a bit and more than anything - you can really see, feel and be in a way that you have not before - and you can get there without becoming identified because you are not aware enough to be, even though it is extrodinarily real and tangible. Trance states are often incredible - but if you persist, you will come to see this as a side road and a tool. It is important to know and understand this because it is very difficult to take the bigger steps without this understanding and it is why I have been persistent in this dialog. It is my hope that for those of you who are not addicted to trance states and are considering what you are doing, that you understand trance states are very easy - they are a lazy way into some very interesting stuff - but many who go to that trough on a regular basis start writing books and giving lectures - they identify with the experience and lose their practice. These side roads are enticing and they will inflate your head - they are good tools - learn them, use them, but be sure to clearly end them after any session and clearly enter them - know when trance starts and when you are ending it. Do not walk about in a haze and do not waste your valuable time with yet another addiciton to sleep.

You seem to confuse your view of trance and meditation once again - it is true most trance states do not cultivate awareness, but now you are implying that Meditation is one of those trance states but it does cultivate awareness. While in your previous quote you specifically state that "Meditation is "like" a trance state "EXCEPT" (and you capitalized the word EXCEPT) that one retains awareness. Clearly stating that it is NOT a trance state but that it is only similar.