manitou

Plus 100 on this. I've sponsored a few in my 30 years of being sober. Doing the inner cultivation (the steps of recovery) must be done earnestly and relentlessly, in my opinion. Many people who set out to do this (because they have to, to save their lives) aren't all that earnest; they want results, but many aren't willing to put in the painful work of trying to find one's shortcomings and change them. When someone does actually spend years doing the inner mining, it gets lighter, and lighter, and lighter. Some kid themselves into thinking that all they have to do is show up at meetings and they'll get it by osmosis. But long term recovery means changing one's self about 180 degrees, from the inside out. Yes, I believe the ultimate light flickers in our innermost being, once we get through all the dross and get down to it. Actually, no, I don't 'believe' it. I Know it. It's there for us all, but our own egos are the bully at the door that won't let us through until we've tamed him. Otis, your child-like aliveness is so very apparent. Your mindset always conciliatory. I don't think you let your inner child out to play at all. I think you Are the inner child. If I were wearing a hat, I'd take it off to you

Life's a verb. Lin Yutang made a slight differentiation: 'Gentleness is the function of the Tao'.

This is beautiful, Stig! I've never seen it this beautifully put. There is such an incredible analogy between gardening and living within the Dao. No wonder so many of us seem to be gardeners! I even followed Marbles' lead and stopped using gardening gloves. The feel of the earth is exquisite. I also recall in one of my many rereadings of the TTC that the Sage will look at things in either one of two ways: dispassionately, transcending emotion, so that the totality of the situation can be Seen: or passionately and immersed in the situation, so the situation can be Felt. Perhaps one of the things that makes him a sage is that he is capable of either at the drop of a hat.

I think it also goes to underlying attitude about everything. To look at life with the innocence of the child, to make no judgments because you haven't learned to do so yet. To be receptive and open to everything and everyone; to find that little thing to love in the person even if they're detestable. To be in awe of the natural world, to not take the natural world for granted. To see the world as though seeing it for the first time. This is a mindset to aspire to return to, I think, through inner cultivation.

Maybe it is important to segregate the two as apples and oranges, but so often it appears that they sort of end up at the same place; the synthesis between spirituality and science does seem apparent, e.g. Einstein's relativity, time and space being curved, everything being relative to everything else; it just seems to point to the Oneness of time and space, and the illusion of linearity. I see science as a path to measuring the Absolute, spirituality as a path to experiencing the Absolute.

I can only imagine the identity entanglement that must happen from the womb on. I'll bet you've had to some serious Bill W. work on that.

I think the real answers lie not in the structure of Buddhism or Taoism but the spaces in between. If we're differentiating between the two (as though two different mindsets ending up two different places) I think we're missing the boat. They end up in the same place, if it is truly combined with the inner journey. The inner journey is the key, not all the external studying. The external studying gives us a template to begin the journey, our "beliefs". But one day, if we're earnest, and if we go very deeply inside ourselves to the very center and find out who we actually Are, there is no longer need for belief structure at all. It's all One. At some point, Nature becomes your teacher.

I don't think that the fact that it defies measurement invalidates it though. I am an example - I think I understand the concepts folks on this board talk about well enough - and yet I barely made it through the 12th grade. No, the kind of knowledge we have here cannot be quantified. But please don't rule me out because I'm not a person of letters. Also, the word mythological just doesn't seem to fit in with my experience at all. Self realization would be closer, hopefully.

I don't understand any of this, so I'm not going to pretend I do. But when you speak of the elixir, is there any chance you're talking about the wonderful sweet taste that feels like it comes down the nasal passages and into the back of the throat? And if it is what you're talking about, what in the world is that?

The only problem with peer-reviewed citations and such, is that it totally disallows for the person who is merely self-realized through their own inner work.

This.

Steve - thanks for the 3 videos - they were wonderful. How succinctly he put it at the end: so we won't be the dog being wagged by its tail.

It's probably to do with the fact that both names sound very Nordic. I think the two sort of naturally go together.

And I think it's important to remember that the news only reports the dark underbelly of what's happening in the world. There is an equally golden radiance at the top of the cloud, we just can't see it. But there are many of us who can feel it, and know that we are somehow going to be the leavening in the bread that helps folks through all this change. Love will win out in the end. Love is the greatest weapon.

This.

And I also think it's important for those who consider themselves Daoist oriented to see the Sage as a model. My bet is that he would always take the high road in getting his point across.

I'm not Ya Mu, but the Red Cross seems to have the best organization for getting there fast and setting up well. They've been doing it for a long time and they have it down to a science. With the weather patterns changing and 'feeling' like it's going to get worse before it gets better, the Red Cross is probably going to be hopping all over the country. In fact, all over the world. Small heartfelt charities are wonderful, but sometimes the good intention doesn't include tried and true efficiency.

I wonder. History is written by the victors. I actually think the only True History is that things deteriorate. Also, when you throw the illusion of time into the equation (past, present, future being all One) that would be saying that the present and the future are written in stone as well. Geez, perhaps they are. In that case free will would be a truly moot point.

Manitou is the indigenous concept of seeing through nature to the soul, to the Oneness. Manitou is the face we sometimes see on a tree, or a cloud that looks like a donkey.....it's a rather child-like thing, but aren't all the really profound things rather childlike? When we are lucky enough to see manitou (maybe a smiling or winking face) on a tree, we are actually relating to the soul of that tree, because our eyes see something they can 'identify' as a door to get into the soul. If you were to look manitou up in the dictionary (some dictionaries don't have it, I've noticed) it would say something like 'the spirit that underlies everything'. As to the manitou of the fireplug, he just had the cutest little happy face. He was thrilled that you were playing on him. Check the video again!

Is history written in stone? Or is that a matter of separate perception as well?

Personally, and this is just me, I see it as a larger dynamic. We are manifesting the weather from the inside out. We are the eyes and ears of the Absolute (borrowing a phrase from Steve F.) The Dao is One. We are the Dao. We are the weather. There is no separation, only apparent separation. Sure, the ice caps may be melting because of our demanding lifestyles. We have been warned for years that we're at the very least 'contributing' to this. This is our collective soul raping the Earth. We're at a point of no return in history as far as the Earth is concerned. It's all connected. Our greed, polar ice caps, changing weather patterns. (I'm no weather person, it's just a Seeing thing). Perhaps the charge of the overall template is to return to the Oneness. Reversion is the action of the Dao. As disagreeable as this seems to many, I'm actually thinking we're heading to one world government where the greed is mellowed and the distribution of worldly assets, like food and shelter, is equitable for all. For those of us living in the U.S., in this country of astounding natural resources, we are so incredibly lucky. My heart hurts daily for those other "parts of me" who are living in squalor, whether on this side of the earth or the other. The odd thing about the Dao is that once it sets into your heart, it seems to expand your heart to include and to love all of the 10,000 things.

Great metaphor on the giant turd thing, Yes, the further we get from our original nature the more manure we pile on. Removing the manure becomes the challenge. The pony at the bottom of the pile is Love. Or the law of attraction. Or whatever you want to call it. (Quietly closes the door and returns to mental closet.)

Now this is odd and I don't expect anyone to believe me. Last night I was mentioning this thread to Joe because of its unusual nature (and kind of funny too). When I spoke to Joe of Aaron's twin I referred to him as Eric. That was before I knew Aaron's twin's name was Eric. Things hang around the ethers, I'm telling you....

Yes, those periodic vacations are needed. Sometimes I think TTB's is all about leveling the ego between us. I think we are on an upward spiraling journey together, and fortunate to have each other. But it does get intense sometimes. I've taken several vacations, usually swearing I'll never return to the darn place. But when I do return, I usually find that either I have changed, or the dynamnics on the board have changed. All things take their rise and fall, I guess.... I so fully agree with The Lerner when he said that the TTB's are our responsibility. If the subjects are not worthwhile, it's because we're not holding up our end. And that's so true about seeing enlightened beings. It's like the more enlightened we become, the higher we are able to see. Like when the nazarene said 'those who have eyes, see. Those who have ears, hear.' He was probably an enlightened being. So much of our country seems so terribly unenlightened. But I do think that we, the more enlightened beings, are scattered around like leavening in the bread. We will be the ones to make the situation rise when the time is right.

You are really making me chuckle now. Yes, there was a study of 4,000 twins and 2,000 of them shaved off half of one eyebrow. You're really on to something there...