Jeff

1 minute ago, rene said:

Knowing when to stop is like the river coming home to the sea.

 

Beautifully said.  

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

This is not just for Jeff (not picking on you) but about energy reading in general.... I think a more honest and balanced statement about this art could be captured by ....

 

You may have not noticed my constant statements at the end about "tongue and cheek" or "just stating this to show where the bums is headed".  The views presented are not my actual views, but more an example of an extrapolation of the counterpoint that was being expressed.

 

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

 

"Energetic readings are helpful, I have some proficiency and trust in them, while at the same time I realize that there is always an element of misunderstanding in energetic reading.

Sometimes it might be the primary element,

sometimes the secondary,

or sometimes tertiary....

but in energetic reading, I realize there is always an element of mis-understanding."

 

But, to you actual point. Energy and actual clarity are the same thing.  Just opposite sides of the same coin.  Anyone with true realization/clarity will radiate it.  Also, if they do not also have conscious control over it, they don't really have the realization.

 

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

 

Because .... Have you ever met anyone who understood everything about the nature of their presence on earth ?

 

Yes, I have.  

 

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

 

Only one thing is for sure, and that is that person is living in mis-understanding. 

 

In the end, it does not really matter.  It is not a misunderstanding that is the problem, but more the attachment to a view.  The key is to be able to let it all go.  This last point is what is missing from the bums lately.

 

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

 

I know you work with chakra readings personally, but is morality a factor in your reading ? I met very powerful Masters with all chakras opened that abused people. In that case, I would choose a person with weak Qi and good morality over a person with strong power and poor morality.

 

Depending on your definition, yes morality also flows through.  It is not possible to realize higher levels if one is still caught up in using it over others or abusing them.  But, no question someone can be a total jerk and still have some juice.  On many occasions, I have had separate people form what you could call "evil gurus".

 

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

 

And then why is a strong signal better ? Doesn't refinement lead to subtlety ? Would someone who keeps unconditional love in their heart emanate strong energy that dazes you or lights a piece of paper on fire ? From my experience, the most refined energies are the subtlest.

 

If someone has true unconditional love they radiate like the brightest sun.  They are my definition of powerful. As I said earlier clarity=power.  Also, refined energies are the subtlest, but they can also easily quench the less subtle energies.

 

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

 

I'll close this by saying the Universe expresses itself in Union. The intellect expresses itself in division. Energetic reading is the disintegration of that Union in order to bring understanding to the Mind. How then can you or anyone claim to capture an accurate picture looking at disintegrated pieces through the lens of the intellect ?  You can use it as an indicator sure, I take no issue with that. But personally, when deciding the worth or "level" of a person, I make a decision based on my *whole being* : mental, heart, energetic, everything. Not looking through any one lens, which would make a disservice to that person. The person "who has no juice" may have done something wonderful for someone today, or even for you, without knowing it.

 

 

First of all, thank you very much for these great questions.  I wish this was more the nature of discourse at the bums.

 

To your point, I would somewhat disagree that the universe is all union.  As the buddhist's state, it is also inherently empty, hence your "union" is a perceptional aspect and not the primordial. So one is both "in it" and also "not it", so it is totally possible to read while being in it.  Just like you can check out your own finger, while it is still a part of entire body.

 

Finally, there is no metric (or any kind) that declares the worth of a person, especially to be included or not.  That is my real point of those posts.  All judgements of others, do nothing but belittle the one attempting to do the judging.  I expressed my own personal view on this topic recently in another thread with an apt quote...

 

Our uniqueness, our individuality, and our life experience molds us into fascinating beings. I hope we can embrace that. I pray we may all challenge ourselves to delve into the deepest resources of our hearts to cultivate an atmosphere of understanding, acceptance, tolerance, and compassion. We are all in this life together.

 

Linda Thompson

10 minutes ago, Zork said:

And you know this how?

That is what reddit is for!

It doesn't concern daoists nor buddhists.

 

As I said, the only valid bases for the true capability of a tradition is the relative energy power of their current practitioners.  I can easily tell if someone has any real juice or not. I have discussed this in many threads.  Have you not seen all of the posts and threads warning members where I am too powerful to be allowed to talk to the newbies? 

 

Buddhists have the same problem as taoists.  They have been misled and all of the true knowledge corrupted. The last buddhist with any real juice was Norbu, and he is now gone from the world.  Very sad for all...

 

(Again, this post is for fun as an example of where the bums seems to be headed)

1 minute ago, Zork said:

Taoism indeed hasn't produced any immortals that we know of in recent years.

But the potential is there.

New Age systems which sprung from literally nowhere do not have the potential to produce immortals and they haven't been tried nor have been created for that purpose.

 

Not correct.  Most taoist systems have been corrupted and the true meaning of teachings like the TTC have been lost. Con men just write books and make up lineage histories to support their cons.  You can easily tell that they have no real juice.

 

Many what you would call "New Age" have really been efforts by higher beings to reintroduce the true teachings that have been corrupted.  They have attempted to help, but the con men and powerful religious establishments make up lies and disparaging labels to keep all of money flowing to them.

 

The only valid test of validity of a system is the actual power that a practitioner has, everything else can be simply meaningless words telling you to breathe backward or forwards...

 

This post is tongue and cheek to make a point.

2 minutes ago, Zork said:

On the contrary, New Age, is an umbrella term that encompasses true and tried systems and crackpot theories and novelty non-effective systems created for marketing purposes. Shouldn't we differentiate? All systems out there aren't equal and the line should be drawn somewhere if this site attempts to give out information to people during their "baby steps" in esoteric systems.

 

And who is going to define the standard of what is effective and what is not?  As an example, Taoism has not generated any immortals in thousands of years, and Manktak Chia stuff just makes everyone ill, so we should probably ban all of that Taoist stuff...

 

This place is seems to be going more and more intolerant every second.  Let's see... Since people want to ban moms, maybe we better ban all dads too, don't want to discriminate...

 

Our uniqueness, our individuality, and our life experience molds us into fascinating beings. I hope we can embrace that. I pray we may all challenge ourselves to delve into the deepest resources of our hearts to cultivate an atmosphere of understanding, acceptance, tolerance, and compassion. We are all in this life together.

 

Linda Thompson

19 minutes ago, C T said:

Some confusion noted when one enthusiastically proclaims Taoism to be functionally socialistic and then some.... only to be rambunctiously followed by extreme suggestions to keep out the 'strays'. wth 

 

Apparently this one also claimed that a true Daoist is only concerned with others' welfare and put others before themselves. Discrepancy much?? 

 

The Tao Te Ching clearly states your point...

 

Chapter 27

 

A good traveler has no fixed plans
and is not intent upon arriving.
A good artist lets his intuition
lead him wherever it wants.
A good scientist has freed himself of concepts
and keeps his mind open to what is.

Thus the Master is available to all people
and doesn't reject anyone.
He is ready to use all situations
and doesn't waste anything.
This is called embodying the light.

What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you don't understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Mskied said:

also, some things will not just dissipate because you ignore them

 

Ignoring is not the same as dissipating (or letting go). Ignoring means you still feel its existence and simply avoid it. When something is dissipated it is simply gone, like it was empty and never really existed.

18 minutes ago, Mskied said:

I don't like these definitions though they are not far from what I consider to be enlightenment.  The key here isn't "living in the now" it is in the act of fighting delusion- and to do that we have to name the now, for the now is simply time moving, but to be enlightened ie, to know, is to know what is now, and none of these two videos tell us what that is, only what it feels like to be there.

 

If you are fighting something, you are caught up in it.  Freedom comes from being able to let is simply dissipate.

3 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Got it, thanks.

In Dzogchen the experiential distinction between mind and Nature is extremely precise and the basis of all practice.

You seem to combine the two or not make that distinction. That must be related to the merge, I would guess.

 

 

Nothing related to the merge. If you attempting to differentiate it in someway, it would relate more to what I was calling the KS Siva aspect of the primordial. In a way, you could say that Siva = Universal Mind = Everything that exists + anything that has the potential to exist.

 

Words are kind of meaningless as it is all really more a direct knowing and beyond definitions of mind.  Like all of this stuff, it needs to be realized/experienced, it is not something that can be intellectually imputed. That is why being able to directly share it becomes so critical. The good news is that it can all be demonstrated and used, making it easy to prove your point.

20 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

This makes no sense to me, the primordial Buddha part, as "overlay" implies obscuration, like tinted lenses one views the world through, and as I understand it, the primordial Buddha is "pristine".. 

 

And as set forth in one of those books I started an exploration of in my ppd, "overlay" is a concept which serves to "seperate" form from emptiness.

 

When a sentient being bubbles up into existence it forms many attachments (forming energy structures) as it grows into conscious awareness.  The overlay transmission (perceived universe) helps to stabilize the new bubbles.  If they do not become stable they ultimately cease and it is as they had never existed.  Form is never separate from the primordial, it is just a different layer of perception. Like a baby being born cant handle the raw data and be remain stable, but still always is primordial even though it may be obscured by the beings own issues/attachments.

 

 

3 hours ago, steve said:

 

Thanks for the description.

 

 

Once again, I appreciate the effort, but unfortunately not.

You mentioned that it is not mind or the use of mind that creates problems, it is getting caught up in obstructions.

I asked if not mind, what is it that is getting caught up in obstruction?

Your responses really haven't touched on my question.

 

 

 

It is all you. Like tripping over your own feet. Or you could say an obscured version of your primordial being. Every sentient is like a bubbling up of primordial nothingness. What you see as the universe is more like an overlay transmission by what in Buddhism could be called the primordial Buddha.

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

My personal experience with you was, a bit like this.. however distorted.

 

Personally, it was confusing and damaging. Right from the get go, there was the presentation of "abiding" - without consideration of circumstance. I understand you have been very helpful to others, and respect and appreciate this - while still believing you should take some precautions with the advice to abide, and what you may be suggesting one abide through. Sometimes, it's time for action.

 

 

 

Our joint experience was not what I was describing, the dynamic (and energy aspects) was significantly different.  Additionally, as we discussed at the time, your issues and the situation were particularly unique.  If you want to discuss the specifics of our interaction, just let me know, but it is not really relevant anymore with the broader shift in the world that I have talked in many past threads. The dynamics of what you were doing energetically have been sort “superseded” (and no longer work that way).

1 hour ago, steve said:

I'm sorry, I appreciate your explanation but not sure I follow.

It's OK though, no need to work too hard. 

 

 

 

Sorry, that my explanation does not make sense.  Maybe it is better to just describe it in practical terms.  Residing in the primordial, all issues and fears simply dissolve when they come up (not avoided, simply gone). The underlying issue and fear is gone, leaving free flowing energy/light in it’s place (knowing it is empty - hence dissolves). Also, since there is “being Siva” (or being all/everything) aspect, you are one with everything (or like Jesus said, we are all one in Christ).  This knowing that one is all allows this “dissolving” aspect of the primordial to be directly shared (similar to a merge).  So if one understands that when Jesus talks about “sin” he means that which separates one from the primordial (issues and fears), and my definition of directly sharing is what he meant when he said he had the power to forgive (or take away) sins.  You just need to believe and accept the release (not ego hold on to them).

 

As a direct example, the dynamic is what I have people work on when I lead what some call a “dive”.  I extend the field directly to the participants, and have them bring up an issue or fear. With a strong and trusting connection, the fear will dissolve for the person, but even with a weaker connection, the issue holds no fear or power while the field is shared, so they then can know/realize that they underlying fear is “empty” and simply an energy flow running around their subconscious.

 

That version make more sense?

1 minute ago, steve said:

If not mind, what is it that is getting caught up in obstructions?

 

What is flowing freely?

 

I think the problem is with definitions of words like mind.  In my view, it is all “you”, so it does not matter what is mind or not mind, but in Buddhist terms i think it is easiest to compare and explain with the Yogacara framework. Things do not flow freely when there is separation from those issues and fears. They remain subconscious to your conscious awareness. Residing in the “primordial state” is what I mean by cutting through.  All of the “states” of mind are really the same, more simple an overlay on the primordial. Based in the primordial, the rest of it does not go away, but when one “hits” an obstruction, it spontaneously perfects (or clears).  This clearing vs. not being affected by, is the difference that I have been trying to describe in past posts. In my view of the primordial, it really does “dissolve”, leaving free flowing energy/light in its place.

 

That is why I am always advocating be it all... No separation from any aspect.  It is all empty, but it is also like KS describes of being Siva.

15 hours ago, steve said:

Acknowledging and working with the reality of our ignorance is necessary, otherwise this becomes nothing more than a mind game. Folks that glibly equate everyday life with mediation come across this way to me. My everyday life is not a continuous state of samadhi. Your earlier comments suggest that to be the case.

 

Stagnation most certainly can come from recognizing and talking about the truth. The crucial point is what recognition means to our daily activity and relationships.

 

Is there a state of mind that is free from suffering?

 

 

Depends on how one defines a state of mind, but yes, similar to what CT described with his Rigpa description.  Such happens when deep meditation is “known” to be the same as normal daily life.  It is not mind or the use of it that creates the problem, it is the getting caught up in the obstructions (issues and fears) that create the perception of suffering.  When it flows freely, there is not the attachment or avoidance that stimulate the suffering. 

12 hours ago, C T said:

 

Watch from the 6min mark... you'll get an idea of the blink-free "resting" state. 

Over the years, I've also met and sat with such yogis, who can remain for hours absorbed in non-referential awareness. 

 

 

 

Thank you.  Very helpful.  

41 minutes ago, C T said:

 

The increasing stability specifically refers to the process of getting used to original wakefulness (or to use the much cliched term, "rigpa") - only that remains the focus. The illusion or cataract that makes one believe there are 2 states: one thats filled with obstacles, and the other filled with bliss, is a lie. We (as practitioners) do not exert effort to identify the veils. The effort (of practice), I repeat, is simply aimed at stabilising the continual recognition of non-dual mind essence. Essentially, with the expansion of stable recognition, the veils will effortlessly fall away as a consequence. Its not even necessary to let go of any perceived blockages, no matter how subtle that letting go may be - it still necessitates effort of identification. Not implying that the method is wrong, just that the time it takes for realization to occur may have a significant bearing on how much effort is exerted, and how much frustrations may arise as a result of those exertions. This could be a crucial difference between your work and the authentic Dzogchen path. 

 

Thank you.  This is exactly the same thing that I have been saying. All such "separate" states of  mind are a perceptional illusion. But, Steve and Ilum are worried that such an approach is misleading and can lead to stagnation.  

 

Have a good weekend.

1 hour ago, C T said:

 

The gradual and pervasive onset of the intermittent gaps between thoughts is one of the factors. The other is the purification of the subtle body resulting from sky gazing, prostrations and other yogic practices. Thirdly, it occurs as a result of the lessening of fluctuations of past and future thoughts. Scientific studies show that the fluttering of the eyelids is the body's natural mechanistic reflex to cause a break in mental activity so that one can tune back in to the present. 

 

Some meditation masters I've enquired from claim its a sign of stable wakefulness. 

 

One of the studies conducted claim that blinking is not random but actually predictable. The researchers observed how people watching a movie were blinking simultaneously during certain scenes. 

 

Thanks for sharing.  If you have any good examples of such people who demonstrate that I would be interested. No question that there is huge variability in eye blinking, but some of the most notable examples tend to be people in the military. Some generals are famous for it.

1 hour ago, steve said:

Acknowledging and working with the reality of our ignorance is necessary, otherwise this becomes nothing more than a mind game. Folks that glibly equate everyday life with mediation come across this way to me. My everyday life is not a continuous state of samadhi. Your earlier comments suggest that to be the case.

 

Stagnation most certainly can come from recognizing and talking about the truth. The crucial point is what recognition means to our daily activity and relationships.

 

Is there a state of mind that is free from suffering?

 

 

Depends on your definition of "state".  But when all the states become the same, there is such a possibility.  

2 minutes ago, steve said:

Yes, i would agree that integration is important. The view is integrated into all activity.

 

What you said seems to be denying the truth of what most of us experience in most moments of our lives, namely misidentification with a self, with a train of thought, with the thinker, the watcher, a memory, a hope, whatever we happen to latch onto in any given moment... which is ignorance. I don’t dispute the absolute truth that all is perfect and we all have Buddha nature at our core.

 

I am also acknowledging the very real distraction I experience daily in my life. It is equally real and valid. I am not enlightened. I can’t speak for you or anyone else but I haven’t encountered many folks that appear to be living in a state of continuous samadhi. 

 

If we don’t acknowledge and work with the truth of what we experience in each moment, we are kidding ourselves and not really growing.  That is the stagnation illumairen mentioned earlier.

 

If you do not experience any of distraction in your life... E Ma Ho!

🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

 

I’m nowhere close to that point.

 

 

I totally agree that we should all work with truth of every individual moment.  I was just stating a fact that you now seem to agree with. People having obscured states of mind is the perceived reality for pretty much everyone.  But, pretending that it is not simply a perceived/obscured state of mind seems to be counter productive.  The stagnation can come from obscured thinking you are "done", but not from recognizing the truth (and talking about it) of every moment.

 

Suffering itself is a state of mind. 

2 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Not speaking for Steve, but in Dzogchen no effort is dispensed to break down anything, least of all perceived obstacles and veils. Why? because the mindfulness is kept relaxed and pervasive, simply acknowledging reactionary tendencies, without following after them, as senses make contact with perceptions. The subsequent content's quality,  and other determinations that follow are not analysed to any degree to weigh out what are deemed hindrances or otherwise - this is not part of the process of the "resting" that is synonymous with Dzogchen practice. There is simply the continued application of recognising mind essence, not whats reflected from it. Repeated familiarization with the non-state of easeful, effortless non-distraction is the practice. Prior to this is to gain confidence of what this non-state is. This is where guru yoga is most crucial. Practising it with devotion leads to stability of original wakefulness, that which is naturally free of any impediments and clots. Strange as it may sound, an indicator of the onset of original wakefulness is the diminishing need to blink, believe it or not lol.... So if you want to weed out the realizers from the pretenders, just observe their blinking frequencies haha!! 

 

So that increasing stability could not also be described as the letting go of obstructions that block the stability?  Not really the same thing?

 

Also, why would a diminishing need to blink a sign of original wakefulness?  Or what would be the textual/sutra reason for it?

Just now, steve said:

 

Not in the tradition I follow.

There is no merging, also no separating or denying, only letting go of distraction and obstruction and resting into it.

 

Same with mine regarding the letting go of distractions and obstructions (and resting).  So then do you also agree that the goal is to break down the obstructions that keep normal daily life from being the same as meditation?  Is that not like I said earlier simply an obscured perspective/view?  If so, I guess I don't understand how what you are saying is not the same as what I said.

4 minutes ago, C T said:

 

yeah, it'll make egg tarts out of us, this US & Russi stockpile 

 

Sounds like we need to just keep moving them to the Jeff pile.  Let me decide...

 

3 minutes ago, steve said:

It all depends on what we identify with in any given moment.

 

 

Ok, I get it.  But, as I stated in the text above, you are all of it.  No need to separate or try to deny part of it.  Merge it all in.