Jeff

Ion, Thank you for your words. Then would the non-identification with self be the "beginning" of non-dual perspective? Implying that you could perceive from a state of non-dual, but still have Ego issues to resolve? With "integration" or "elimination of self" going on forever? Thanks.

Probably just the beginning...

Ion, Thank you for your detailed explanations here and in other threads. Something that would be helpful for the discussion... How do you define "enlightenment"? What is it (the process)? Or, what happens? Is there an integration of the male & female components? Thanks.

Thanks again for your comments and advice. Self-inquiry has become part of my path. I will definitely take a look at your method. Does self-inquiry alone lead to enlightenment? I had always thought that it was the marriage of both the male & females aspects. The unity of bliss & energy. Two sides of the coin.

Aaron, Thank you for your post. Our experience/understanding seems pretty similar, but for me non-duality is still only an experience and not part of my daily life. Though I would say that the "flavor" of the experience/realizations seems different. For me, with the light, it feels like I am going in and at the same time letting it in. Almost like I am lowering the barrier and equalizing the pressure of the light. Also, the light "feels" like peace & joy. Unlike your description, i find myself wanting to "share it". But, would agree with your words that it really doesn't matter, because it all continues on. Others with your perspective have told me that it almost feels like you are a "remote probe" for the Divine/Self. Does it at all feel like that? Also, have you been able to let go and fully "merge or integrate" with the light? Sounds like you are describing more going "into" the light. Finally, do you experience constant peace, bliss and very pleasurable energy vibrations during your daily life? Thanks for your time.

I understand what he is saying, and it may appear that I am disagreeing, but I am actually trying to point out a refinement of what he is saying. Or, I may just be disagreeing... Love with associated attachment can also grow and expand. Attachments can be dropped. Selfless love (or sometimes called universal compassion) is part of our base state. True love is not the problem, attachment and desires are...

Yes, non-duality is still an experience. During meditation and a couple of times during normal daily activities. Do you still feel distinct chakras/tan tiens? Or, does it feel more like an unified field? Thanks.

Agreed.

Aaron, Could you further describe (or point me to a post of) your current experience/perception? Also, do you know (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that "you" are eternal? Or, rather that you are part of the "transient nature of all things" and ultimately are just a temporary smile on the blip of Tao? Thanks.

Thanks. Sounds like we have a very similar background. Three kids for me... By "wake up", do you mean perceived "oneness" or more "witness" with perceived separation from thoughts/desires? And in "clearing out the mess", do you still experience Anger (or irritation )? Finally, have you found a direct correlation between "cleaning out the mess" and energy/tan tiens/chakras? Thanks.

Agree with most of what you are saying, but it depends on your definition of Love. My statement was about selfless love. Romantic love is an attachment (with expectations), but is the practice seed that can possibly lead to selfless love. Selfless love naturally expands to humanity.

Could you explain in greater detail what that means and what you are telling the group? Thanks.

Xabir2005, Thank you for your detailed description. Your words to describe it are different, but very consistent and resonate with what others who have had non-dual realization have told me. As an example, your explanation of the difference between level 5 and 7, others have described as the difference between "oneness" and "wholeness". The trick is translating perspective. It is difficult to describe a direct correlation to the steps. Unlike most here, I did not start out on "conscious" path, so there was no "defined beginning". Everything is always just "normal", even when things happen. I am just a guy, who was just trying to be a good father & husband, when my head started vibrating. My "path" has been sort of just "feel the flow" and go with/surrender to it. All the problems start, when I try to "improve" what is happening. More insight comes to me from reading the "Dhammapada" or "Tao Te Ching" then just energy practices. My feeling anger question was relevant (sorry, I missed your earlier post, only been a member for two weeks), because I have found that when Buddha said "drop anger & desires", they really do go away. Gone (as in does not compute ). Energy experience vary (and may be mind games), but experiencing steps of peace, joy, loss of anger & desire directly impact your existence (and give you the energy stuff for free ). To me, level 2 and 3 are the same thing. Your description of level 3 is just an "experience" to help with the understanding. I have found that everything and nothing are just two sides of the same coin. From my discussion with others, it seems to be that either can come first as a perspective, dependent on your perceived point of view. I have experienced "oneness" in life for a few minutes a couple times, but it is not stable and I am not sure that it the same as others describe. Hard to define and agree on what is "oneness"... In general, I don't worry about it at all. No "desire" for enlightenment. More an intellectual curiosity where the flow is drifting... Overall, it is quiet and pretty much just smiles... Still stuff to clean out, but the peace & joy grow. Lost anger somewhere along the way and probably would not have noticed other than it drives my wife crazy... If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask. Also, if you experience energy/chakras, I would be interested in asking a few followup questions relative to the stages.

Thank you for your response. No hurry, feel free to wait for a keyboard. Very impressive on a phone. I would be happy to share (or answer any questions). I believe we are in agreement on our definitions. Your definition of insight=my understanding. Your realization = my knowing. For me, to "know" is permanent realization. I just seem to have an in between stage where I "feel" it. "Feeling" includes some level of "experience". Also, if it would be easier, feel free to email. Thanks.

Xabir2005, Thank you for your posts and the description of the Thusness stages. The information was new to me. Some of my experiences have been similar and If you don't mind, I have some questions... In the Thusness descriptions, level 5 is the full shift to non-dual perspective. Have you experienced it? At this point, in your understanding, is there only the present moment (no sense of time)? Also, did you experience level 2 and level 3 to actually be two different states. Or, is it really just two sides of the same coin? I am "everything" or I am "nothing" seem to be more about the perspective that you are viewing from. Do you perceive level 6 & 7 as ongoing levels or observations of perceived non-duality? Do you still experience Anger? Did it drop at a perceived level? Finally, as you have progressed, have you noticed a difference between the states of "feeling it" and truly "knowing it"? Thanks for your help.

"You" are never broken. Your description is of the Ego/Mind having "setbacks". The "dark night of the soul" is about transcending the Ego (autopilot). The Ego will never be satisfied. Go beyond... The first step is to find the "witness" inside. When you "quiet your mind", it is easier to find "yourself" in the silence.

Can not one learn from experience, selfless love for a person, and then grow to selfless love for All people? Selfless love is the key.

Thanks.

An excellent point. A translation of a translation into English... True meaning can be easily lost without the correct context. Anyone know of a English translation by a "realized" Taoist Master?

Good words for life. It is the attachment to the acts that are the killer.

It depends on your perspective. If you are one with Tao, all existence is a like a play. For LoaTze, if you are "playing your part", no problem, things just happen and everything is perfect as it is. No one "dies" because there really is only Tao. Violence (or suffering) exists when you perceive yourself separate from Tao (ad-libbing your part ). If I kill an ant while stepping on it during a walk, no violence. If I go out of my way to jump on it, violence. Not being conscious, to the ant there is no difference. It is the associated mental attachment to killing that is the violence for LoaTze. MH - thanks for the kind comment.

At oneness, they are the same thing. There is no separation. The difference is in the perspective of the reader (or translator/author). For a true master/sage does not even exist as a separate entity. There is just Tao. All the rest is just Tao playing with itself.

The perception is in the intent. It is the same point as in the Gita, there is a job to be done (or a part to be played). A lion killing for it's food is non-offensive. Killing for the fun of it (or enjoying it) is offensive. A soldier has a job to do. If you do your job, it is part of the flow of Tao. When you are violent just to be mean (or just to show how good you are) that is where you create separation (or Karma).

Sorry if I am being annoying... Try to use it for below... When you get angry, try changing your breathing pattern. Maybe even hold your breath. It makes it easier to "catch" it in the moment.

ChiDragon, Your line 3 translation seems to imply a different focus than the other 3 translations... 3. One who is good in winning does not have to encounter with the enemy. The other 3 describe being a good winner. Yours implies not fighting. Could your translation of "encounter" also be something like "follow up" or "pester"? Thanks.