dawei

thanks. I think there is balance in this; meaning it's both empty and flowing as a concept, probably not just either/or. If I were to use 'empty' as a translation now, I might say 'empty appearance' since it's not really empty.

I am not fond of the word main because it is used somewhat religiously like a moral precept you must follow this or do that. In my 'practice', I've not been around people who choose any particular word, so it's just doing something. I think all these things are self-help approaches. But if I were naturally accelerating my own death by my habits (and then I need to maybe ask how did those habits form, do I just call them 'natural') I might interfere with that and change something (ie: diet, exercise, etc). Somewhere in all this is some balance to what's going on not just outside of us but also inside of us. I am also not overly fond of using 'non-interference' for Wu Wei since interference is going to naturally happen at times. Yes, I can see many practical applications of where not interfering is the natural course but as a translated term it seems then to be all-or-nothing. I think you may of been closer with exploring not being sentimental but then you said the bellows cannot be describe (describing is useless), which was what you were doing! So, maybe you would describe the bellows as not sentimental but in life maybe you find you are sentimental (not so useless)? Maybe all you mean is the the actually workings of the Dao is not able to be described but the bellows was given as LZ's example and now we're using physical examples.

Hi Rene, Karma can be a loaded word. how do you feel about 'cause and effect' instead?

Man "is" a one of the 10,000 things. In Qigong we might say, "focus on self before you focus on man". That is the essence.

Until the last line, it seems you want to observe "Man". He is the center [of Heaven and Earth].

Ok, that is quite profound and makes sense given both the ancient totem and ancestor worship, which is a link between the earthly and heavenly. Linked meaning to Chapter 7 opening? 天長地久

Consider that the oldest Guodian manuscript actually does not have many of the feminine or water symbols... Not that I want you to stop further research as I think ultimately these symbols are important.

At birth, we are the most Yang; after that day, it is all downhill Your actual practice to take away from here to add to there needs to consider the gender issues titled.

I mentioned in my notes that "pour forth" means to empty but cannot empty [due to the second half of the line]. So I have a contrast in mind. But your picture is parallel to the valley; Instead of filled with [nothing but] air, this imagery is filled with [nothing but] water. ok. I like that. Thanks.

After 81 chapters of splashing all around, we'll never find it whether in separate threads or in 100 pages of 'In Situ'. I'll restore to the "Search" function in either case You make a good point... for the general mass, a single Titanic thread may be best

The dog is among the earliest domesticated animals. Shang excavations show dog sacrifices and being buried with people (ie: watch dog in the afterlife ?). The Zhou mention sacrifices to ward off disease. 軷 - A chariot riding over an animal. Seems an original tale for trampling on them after the ceremony But the Huainanzi says they are "kings"... edit.. fix atrocious spelling

沖is empty - that is the typical meaning, but I don't see it. When I look at the original character I see something being moved forward by water... going with the flow. I see that as a very good depiction of Dao... flowing [forth].

At another website, we discussed this for 14 pages. I doubt we'll get close to that here The opening is loaded with the difficult words "bu ren". 天地不仁 Tian-Di-Bu-Ren Heaven-Earth-Not-Benevolent Not Benevelent. As Chan said, 'not humane is provocative and not benevolent is gross'. In Chan's appendix [of his Source book] he says Ren means a 'particular' virtue... so one may infer he means that "bu ren" means "not a particular virtue". I may extrapolate that to, "not of [man-made] virtue", meaning it has no human benefit- or ethic-seeking purpose. What other virtue is there? "De" (德), that which is from Dao. We don't see this emphasized as much as translations like 'sentimental' or 'impartial' to soften the hard line connotation of 'not humane'. Straw Dogs. 芻狗. These were ceremonial effects made of straw as a dog which when the ceremony was done, they were trampled on as meaningless and having no "sentimental" value. Hence, why Wu maybe uses that in his translation. Strangely, Wang Bi comments it as "straw" and "dogs" which seems grossly wrong. Bellows. This is not talked about as much as one might expect. Yes, it continues the meaning of Chapter 4, "full and yet inexhaustible" into chapter 6, but it has been a strong reference in Qigong society as to the working of Qi (bellows is Dan Tian; the fulness of air generated is Qi). 虛而不屈 - vacuous yet never exhausted -- Chan Bellow 橐籥. In ancient china there is a windbox and double piston box which is probably the direct imagery. Bai Xing 百姓. The 100 Surnames. There is much more history and uncertainty to this than meets the eye. Briefly, the earliest unification was by the Huang [Di] tribe triumph at the Zhuolu Battle. The final alliance created the Bai Xing. With the absorption of the 'losing side' as slaves, it also came to be known as a right for the slave owners. Later mostly nobility only took on surnames and eventually the common people. But what can be seen in earlier times is that those in power tended to be associated with a surname. One variation to the older text: WB: 多言數窮 - More words count less [Tr. Feng/English] (following FY and HSG) MWD:多聞數窮 - Much learning means frequent exhaustions [Tr. Hendricks] My feeling is that the original meaning meant what we see in the character; An ear in a gate, listening to something. So, paying attention to the external [issues] will cause [internal] exhaustion. Since the bellows is previously mentioned, there is an internal aspect to pay attention to. 不如守中 Better look for it within you. -- Wu Hold fast to the center. -- Feng-English That's not so good as holding on to the mean. -- Hendricks The character 中 means 'center' as a basic translation. But when one thinks of the word for China as 中国 (zhong guo- Central Kingdom), it does not need to be simply translated as center or mean. I think Wu has the closest meaning so far but I think we should look closer to the previous character, 守 (guard). 守中 - Guard Center ? Consider this: 守法 - Observe the Law So 守中 - Observe the center; FOCUS ON YOUR INNERMOST ESSENCE

I cut your quote short... That's always the challenge. I tend to favor organization than free for all discussion which wanders like the yellow river; at times feeding and at times flooding the people. While such talk like this could go into a general area or another thread, they cross over so much that there is no way to figure out their relation to the text in the end ! My recommendation is that when discussion of a specific chapter gets sidetracked, it get moved to a thread called , "Chapter 3, additional discussion". That way the original course of that thought can be traced backwards. It's not perfect but I tend to like some organization and following the source of the discussion works when in doubt.

Rene, the proper way is to let a thread run it's course if meaningful or for a mod to break out the relevant parts to another topic. I am not against someone moving the relevant posts to another thread but I think it deserves to be in this subform. It is the history of ancient china at the time of Lao Zi and the influences that may of existed concerning an understanding of his translation. Did I just sound like I made a very long title of a paper? If the idea is to explore the DDJ, then how can you explore that without exploring the historical time. I don't doubt that 95% of the people have no clue or interest in such things so just read and get their own feeling about the words. But that is why it still belongs in such a subforum; if you want to research it further, here it is... This all said, and again, I am not against a mod cleaning up this thread to another thread in THIS subforum. (I am a mod of another forum and that is the logical direction I usually take to such issues).

I'll disagree with that for finger painting reasons but I'll pay more attention to the mixing of colors. THANKS ! That is quite interesting since I would call these two "Legalists" but there we are back to your first point above !! Thanks many for the exchange.

Upon further thought on this issue of suggesting the kneeling women. It is true the Shang had slaves and seems plausible that it therefore existed prior in the Xia period. But the issue remains as to the problematic origin of the kneeling woman. I know that many take it as a sign of the subordination of the gender. I now find another intriguing possibility; that of female diviners kneeling in ritual. I looked back at Lady Fu Hao of Shang since I recall her status among the court. It seems that there is one theory that she is from a clan of "Fu" (diviners) which the shang court utilized due to their long history of divination practices. Among the famous Lady Fu Hao tomb findings were her clan symbol and a kneeling artifact. [for some reason I see the graphics in preview but not in the final post. so here are links to paste into your browser] http://members.fortunecity.com/maryhalpin/73b80960.jpg http://members.fortunecity.com/maryhalpin/09ea3900.jpg ---- I am sure we disagree less about the Warring State Periods bloody attempts to take control of the lands and I know Sun Zi's military tactics are at this time. I know there are many stories that can be told of this time; and not that the Zhou were as model a state as Confucius made them appear. But I reserve "ruthless totalitarian" for the Qin Dynasty and their legalist ways. To touch on the issues of the distinct schools (or lack thereof), I did see your link. This one at least shares a little more info on The Fushion of Huang-Lao Daoism and Legalism: The Ideal Chinese Political Leader Although the Fushion is more than just those two. Huang-Lao obviously comes after Lao Zi has penned his words. Though typical of China, it is like a tree with many branches which all have some relationship. Lao Zi's ideas become Huang-Lao ideas which merge with some Yin Yang ideas and Legalist ideas (Chan traces them back to 600 bc); but it seems certain rulers preferred certain branches and the various 'thoughts' (or schools) criticized each other, yet they constantly borrow from each other. Yes, using distinct school names may seem to neglect this synergistic approach. It is similar to the problem of oversimplifying a definition of 'Dao Jia' and 'Dao Jiao' as 'philosophical dao' and 'religious dao'; this may not only miss the progressive nature of the teachings on Dao but also ignore that Confucians and Buddhist used the phrase 'dao jia' as well. There is no strict patent on the phrase, however much Sima Qian first used it. And speaking of legalist; Han Fei is usually the name mentioned and the movement contained more Mo Zi than Xun Zi. Most do not know he wrote selected comments on the Lao Zi and are probably the oldest comments ever on the text. I recall one comment about his comments as having 'fear'. That is what I read in your translation word choie and why I said it reads more a legalist. Call them schools or not. Doesn't really matter to me. They all mixed and matched like finger paint.

It would be good if you provided the word you have chosen to translate as 'pacify'. Is it arbitrary to define a kneeling woman as a valuable slave for this character? Meaning; if you look at the most ancient clan names or surnames, how do we then define the reason for a woman part or radical in most all of them? Is it purely fertility purposes, slave purposes or possibly a nod to a matriarchal society? My only point is that appealing to the meaning of character origin may be somewhat subjective at times. Sorry... I did have a further point. What time period does Lao Zi reflect back to as the one he would like to be restored? Is it the current political theories of his day, or the period where seal characters were increased to account for more words, or the military periods and thus use of some terms, or the past periods of time when life was more simple? Words have a context to their day but thoughts have a context to the past. Edit to add this from my history notes on 女: The Chinese word for ‘surname’ (Xing, 姓) has two parts: “woman” and “birth”. The most ancient surnames have the female character in it: Yao(姚), Jiang(姜)，Ji(姬)，Ying(嬴)，Gui(妫) , Si(姒).

Here is a good yet short book, called Chinese Foods for Longevity. But the foods are not necessarily from China it includes sections on tonics and purging foods. http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Foods-Longevity-Long-Life/dp/0806958308/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1291412474&sr=8-1 I see many selling for less than a $1.00... Is it me or are book sellers desperate to sell... I've never see prices on used books so low there than in the last year. Anyways, book buyer's market time.

The Dao Speaks: http://www.amazon.com/Dao-Speaks-Whispers-Wisdom/dp/B000NHOJFM/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1291412037&sr=8-5 There is a second volume and other philosopher books as well. These are very insightful and fun to read. I buy a few when in china for about $1.00 each, but still worth the outrageous western markup

Yes, this first line is a gem! And it should come as no surprise that such a visually rich line is not repeated in some form. Chapter 45 has a single line which shares some of the same characters to convey the 'empty', 'full', 'use', and 'not used up'. Chapter 4: 道沖而用之有不盈 The Dao pours forth and yet has unlimited use. -- My translation Chapter 45: 大盈若沖其用不窮 What is most full seems empty but it’s usefulness is inexhaustible. -- Chan --- I take a slightly different translation direction than empty but the meaning is the same; it cannot be used up, it cannot be emptied (although it pours forth). The reason I go with the 'pouring forth' is that there is a strong water presence in the line. Chong (沖) and the original, obsolete character for Ying (盈) was this Ying (浧), both which have water radicals. It's also possible that the character was another one with one less stroke which I have the unicode for but it will not display, but can be seen here: http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi3/ZdicF0ZdicA3ZdicB3ZdicA4.htm --- The other line which is curious is the last one: 象帝之先 SIMILAR-LORD/GOD/EMPEROR-IT'S-PRIOR There are a few possibilities for "Di", which was posthumously ascribed to the Sage-Emperors (clan leaders) going back to Huang Di forward through the Qing Dynasty. But my feeling is that this is not really meant since that keeps it on the physical sphere. Wang Bi's commentary said that [he presumes] it means "Shang Di", which can mean 'Highest Ruler' or 'Heavenly Ruler' (whom sacrifices were made to). I prefer this reference over "God" since it is not completely the western concept of "God". What's curious is the use of "Di" as "Shang Di" was really more a Shang Dynasty concept and the Zhou Dynasty eventually replaces that with the use of "Tian". Lao Zi would of lived after the time of the fall of Zhou, so the usage of "Di" as in "Shang Di" seems actually less likely on some level. I have not researched this to really give a solid opinion, but I think it may be a general refer to things "Divine" in nature. I don't think any absolute solution is needed as we get the gist that Dao is before anything related to the physical sphere.