dawei

thanks for sharing that. nice to hear. "Center-point"... I didn't think about that phrase which maybe I'll use in another chapter Although I think these kinds of hyphenations work, it doesn't read as smooth as I would like but it says what I felt at that time. Thanks!

你说的对极了 ！！！！

In my ten trips to china, I would call it in one word: Patterns, to align to Chaos Theory. Political side? It was a metaphor for the your title based on my saying "negative liberties or positive liberties". You want to discuss a political philosophy but you only said, Tao is a philosophical harmonious coexistence and then appeal to Chaos Theory. Tao is the natural process; or natural cycle or patterns. Call it harmonious but that is just the social context required by man. In nature, its just patterns being pursued by forces of nature. An earthquake is very harmonious to nature; but why is it considered devastation to man? Because we don't see it's 'pattern' within nature. If you want to discuss the political nature of Lao Zi's message, I've yet to see you comment on how that is actually pursued. I'll give you how I see the primary pattern in political china for social patterns leading to harmony: Don't interfere and create obstacles (or artificialness) in people's lives. Let them pursue their lives, as close to an authentic self as possible (ie: same as patterns in nature). This does not mean the government is to be some sort of quietism which some identify with the Dao. It needs to be active in it's pursuits of being 'less'. This is positive liberties. I have said this to many people: Chinese experience more freedom than americans... it seems to defy all the western propaganda you read; but go there; see it for yourself... which you probably see.

I forget to mention that this chapter 6 is mentioned in total in the Lie Zi, who says this is originally from a Huang Di text. What makes that somewhat interesting is that there is an alternate sexual interpretation of this chapter which ironically has support of the earliest commentators AND Huang Di related text! Where is the emoticon for "I'm out of here"

Hi Majc, I would like to comment on some of these points since I think you raise some good issues. So sharing from my point of view. I prefer to keep parallel where Lao Zi is, but once in a rare moment I find the context calls for dual meaning. 仁 carries both meanings (whether I would personally use the dual here, I am not sure but both words are permissible although I am not saying contextual). Where does "ruler" come from? Where 'Sheng Ren' exists (Sage) is understood by some as "Sage-Ruler". Since in ancient china one did NOT write explicitly against the ruler for death was a ready response, there was some innuendo approaches used. Wei is action, as you know. But this is often better defined by the action in context. If the action is one of "use", then I am all for saying "use". Not that I agree or not here, just a general principle I apply. Can you provide a link for 仁 as "prefer"? The difficulty for me is not seeing this in reproach of Confucian ideas; 仁 is the KERNEL (seems a self-imposed pun) of the Confucian virtues; This is the mother of all virtues. SO it would be quite playful to use the word "Kernel", IMO. Personally, I am re-thinking this opening because of our discussions... Heaven and earth are not [for institutionalized virtues called] benevolent This would be a direct opposition to Confucius core virtue, 仁. I see the personally application as not focusing on the mouth (many words) but the inside (stomach of empty space); ergo, Dao Yin practice (or Qigong in modern day). I think a sage of old would know this. Hey, we don't have to agree but I like the issues you raise.

I can see your point of using the Yin [aspect], so want to think about that. Yes, empty but not empty is a typical Lao Zi paradox. That's why his imagery is understandable (Valley, bellows, space, etc). Although I honestly don't think it is a mystery; there are enough examples in life that let us truly understand it. But yes, the empty is full (or never exhausted); classic Lao Zi !

Hey Majc, As short and brief as this is, I cannot find any translation satisfactory for the richness of the images here. I decided to take the day to ponder a translation and I see we have some similar thoughts. I think the one small thing I tried to convey the universe start-point which has no end-point. You said "key", for the gate term or the combination of the gate and root? It's a thoughtful translation. thanks.

The phrase Valley Spirit (Gu Shen 谷神) has had many translation variations to include: - Tao - The Valley as desire (欲); Note that Gu (Valley) is the left part of this character. - The Valley as grain; Another meaning for Gu. - The non-valley as Nothingness - Emptiness - Pure intelligence - The Great Harmony Like Rene, I like the feminine translation left in. Here would be my way of translation: The Valley Spirit has no end-point This is called the deep-rooted feminine The deep-rooted feminine Is regarded as the starting-point of the Universe It intangibly subsists By functioning effortlessly

harmonous coexistence with what? --> Philosophy? Is the DDJ about negative liberties or positive liberties? You can find evidence for both. Maybe it depends on what our political side is ?

Legge's translation is widely quoted. Muller used the word "harmonize" which I think is better. The word means to make uniform, equal, set in order or in good order. Here is the original character, what feeling do you get? Oracle Bone >> Seal >> Traditional >> Simplified >> >> >>

Thanks for clarifying. I think it is making some general classifications rather than holding some literal meaning at times. Maybe we can explore that as we move forward to see how that fleshes out. I see where your going with the 'domain' idea. I have rarely given much thought to the straw dogs issue; always accepting it as the impartiality angle, etc. Now I am looking at it much deeper and question why LZ really uses it; meaning, I see the straw dogs are not so impartial after all (they have a specific use and function) and why appeal to a otherwise stupid ancient ceremonial ritual which only Confucians would get an appeal from. I stumbled upon Carus's translation (of 1913) and he turns this all around but it got me thinking more. Anyways, thanks for sharing.

With 'Wan Wu' as the 10,000 things we associate that to the physical, manifested world. I don't think that has as much debate to it. It's hard to ignore that 'Bai Xing' has a historical use among those in power since it serves many purposes (tracking families, time, ancestors to worship, etc). But in both cases, they are using numerology to suggest a many aspect. I think what your saying is 'nobility' would be a class [categorization] of the object called 'family'? Are you also suggesting the 'hundred families' as a class of the object 'ten thousand things'? if I was lucky to follow you to here, I'm not sure if your now suggesting 'space' as a class? Of what object? I definitely agree that one cannot overlook the emptiness; that is supposed to be one focus, that it never is truly empty, always generating; it cannot exhaust its strength (or power to produce/generate). And definitely ties to the chapter before and after which may explain why these three are together, and also to chapter 11. There is also some aspect of, to borrow from Twinner, non-interference or letting things operate according to their own nature, by staying empty (ie: abide in your own nature); This seems to be 'bu ren', space, bellows, and few words/edicts. These permit all things to abide in their own nature. I now find an interesting similar word use to the Six Virtues [liu shan] of Confucius and the Many words [duo shan] of the ending. Some have translated this like 'too many government decrees'... but maybe it also means 'too many virtues'... I'll have to get Rene's permission to use that for virtue

yea... kinda of correct I forget to mention that the modern day use also has the compound 'Dao De'... kind of ironic that the book which sought to untangle itself from societal moralistic kind of virtue ended up with it's own themes combined in a title and used for morality. No good deed goes unpunished But as you know, there are times when meaning drives the translation and so someone might of used something other than 'De' but the meaning is really akin to a kind of virtue. It is similar to the word 'Wei' which means 'action' but in context there are so many actions possible that there is usually another word which fits better than just the simple 'action'. But I think it is probably more rare in the LZ to translate other words to Virtue since 'De' has such an honored place. but if translating a Confucian text, there are various possible words which I can see get translated as 'virtue'; At a minimum, these would include the 'six virtues', which he called 'liu shan' (六言-technically 'six words', so even here 'words' in context is translated by 'virtue'). The rendering below is somewhat typical in the use of "love" but that word is not love it is the word for 'good' (hao)... so it goes: The Analects: Confucius said: Yu, have you heard the six virtues and the six distortions? Yu answered that he hadn't. Confucius said: Then stay a moment, and I will tell you. If you love humaneness, but don't love learning, then you will be led astray by foolishness. If you love wisdom, but don't love learning, then you will be led astray by fruitless speculation. If you love sincerity, but don't love learning, then you will be led astray by harmful candor. If you love justice, but don't love learning, you will be led astray by violent severity. If you love boldness, but don't love learning, you will be led astray by your own lack of control. If you love persistence, but don't love learning, you will led astray by your own adamancy.

Now, who gets to do the double post to the other forum; you've had your turn That probably works on 98% of the time but other words can be translated to virtue... but i get your point.

I understand the sentiment but there are a few problems with that. 1. The book was written somewhere inbetween 600 BC - 300 BC. What was the literacy rate? I have heard numbers like 5-10%... Even going back to Shang Dynasty period, who was actually doing the oracle bone writings and divination practices? Basically the court. Even in 1949 the literacy was only put at 20%. 2. The common folks had no knowledge about military, court, and societal governing affairs yet there are lot of references throughout. 3. If you look at the commentaries written, most all of them comment about the ruler much more than you ever see as translations which are just based on characters. A good example is what you see in Wagner's translation; he translated the WB based on WB's notes. So if the line conveys a person was in mind, he inserts "ruler" since WB said in his notes this concerned the ruler. But if one just looks at the line itself, you might not see it that way. 4. This comes out of the Warring State Period; operative word is "War". The Sage-Kings are but a memory; Zhou, for what it might of represented for some was also now a lost memory. Legend says LZ left because he saw the walls come tumbling down. But commentaries can vary in what they see. Some focus more religiously (Xiang'er), some more spiritually/energy (Heshang Gong) and some more metaphysically (Wang Bi). I mentioned early how 4 different commentators apparently see the "straw dogs" differently; so it's not like they all agree on everything. Anyways, I lean left of center that it's mostly for rulers... while the word "Sage" is used a lot, we have to also remember that "Sage-King" is not unfounded as one meaning. But I know that the modern desire concerning the reading of older texts is usually; what is there in here for me as personal growth or application. -- edited to add #4 above which I forget to mention as an obvious point.

I will clarify a few things but I'm not interpreting or justifying... Here is a good translator to copy/paste any characters to (well, as good as it gets. Most often a single english word does not do justice to a single chinese character): Translation of 仁 At most sites, you will find some combination of the following words for REN: Benevolence, mercy, humaneness, humanity, sensitive, kernel BAI XING: I mentioned in my opening post concerning this word. Throughout ancient history, only those in [a position of] power really had the right to a surname; common people were allowed them later. Therefore it divided how people translate it as 'common people' or 'nobility'. Certainly the modern use is as common people. Some opt out and use something very literal like the 100 Surnames or 100 Families.

How about us 'still learning one' I think that 'De' is the most commonly accepted character. It was used by Confucius too. As chinese depend on 'actions' to truly convey one's nature (Xing), there are other words which are frequently translated as virtue in context; Confucius relied heavily on the ideas of 'Ren' (human-heartedness), 'Yi' (righteousness), 'Li' (rituals) and these could be too. The 'virtuous man' is 'Jun Zi'. Here is what wiki says about 'De': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_(Chinese) De is a key concept in Chinese philosophy, usually translated 1. "inherent character; inner power; integrity" in Taoism, 2. "moral character; virtue; morality" in Confucianism and other contexts, and "quality; virtue" (guna) or 3. "merit; virtuous deeds" (punya) in Chinese Buddhism. The oldest possible form seems to be an eye looking straight along a road; possibly intuit, and later a ten (perfect) was added above and a heart below, and later a 'one' is added (oneness or perfectly of one heart?). Modern character: 德 I mentioned 'nature' (Xing) in regards to Confucius. I know you are chopping at the bit to read that PDF link I left yesterday , but in there Shen says that for Lao Zi 'De' is the replacement for 'Xing' (the nature of things); LZ never uses Xing. Xing is often tied to one's nature (Confucius said it was originally good; Xun Zi said it was bad). But for Confucius this can be (should be) perfected to become the 'Jun Zi'; only our emotions can get in the way of that. How perfected? Ren, Yi, Li (observing/embodying these actions or ways). Note Chapter 38, Lao's construction is the other way around. Ren, Yi, and Li are not built up but come about by loss of Dao > Loss of De, etc: Dao > De > Ren > Yi > Li.

To try to clarify the ceremonial use of straw dogs; the straw dogs serve a purpose, a temporal one. From the quote one sees the idea of protection twice (protect the master; attract and conquer any bad spirits of the dead). Reading Zhuang Zi further reveals that the reason they are burned up is because if one were to keep them around, or dare to sleep under one, they would likely get bad (evil) dreams. To prevent the spread of this [evil], they are burned. He relates a story giving an example of bad things happening to a person as similar to this. It seems to me that there is a spiritual concept going on here (being a ritual ceremony). Whether spiritual or energy (possibly akin to how we say there is rebellious Qi), the straw dog seems to act a collection field for the evil [spirits or energy] and so must be discarded after they have served their purpose. This is a picture of temporal existence. It also reminds me of an ancient phrase like to 'die and not decay'. Although I have never seen it used in relation to the straw dog story, I see that the straw dogs could be used to assist this. I'm not trying to justify anyone's translation; just want to clarify some issues about my understanding and research into the straw dogs.

I had completely missed Wagner's notes (to Wang Bi's commentary) in the back which traces the various manuscripts handling of this phrase 'straw dogs'. It seems the Xiang'er, Heshang Gong, and Wang Bi all favor "grass and dogs". What becomes clear is that there are two different stories of it's origin: 1. The one is the ceremonial 'straw dog' as you relate in the next post by Nina, and which has it's origin in the Zhuang Zi. 2. The Xiang'er follows another more ancient story based on Huang Di placing 'straw dogs' above doorways as a symbol of something worthless; a reference to evil doers as opposed to those who are good. The Xiang'er apparently talks a bit about this distinction and how Heaven and Earth (and the Sage) treat such people. Wagner also mentions Zun commentary to the Lao Zi and shows how all four basically interpret the passage differently. What is interesting is that the religious slant of Xiang'er and the metaphysical slant of Wang Bi use the same phrase, differently. But, according to Wagner and the Xiang'er commentary, the Xiang'er appears to suggest the first use as 'straw dogs' to reflect the good and the second as 'straw and dogs' to reflect the evil (those worthless, no better than straw and dogs), consistent with the Huang Di story. I only know of (but do not own) the Early Daoist Scriptures by Bokenkamp to contain a translation of the Xiang'er. Are you aware of any others? P.S. I have now put together why you said 'lao zi is a god'... your reference to the Xiang'er makes that clear (as well as your name).

Not sure I can agree with most of this. As I shared in the subforum thread about 'de', I think 'de' is the 'Dao in you'; it facilitates the 'return'. So, 'de' is not something that "comes", it is there right now !! If what you mean is your awareness of it grows then that is another thing; that is your mind/body/experience not recognizing it. You don't like the word "cultivate" yet you say 'if I learn to work...'. What is different? And if nobody needs to teach you, how did you learn to work? Most eastern ways include some form of meditation, so I am not sure one can say as a blanket statement that meditation will not lead you to an understand of Dao. I think maybe you are compartmentalizing things as I see them all as playing some interrelated role. Some may drop certain parts but yet still get the benefit... ergo, no one part by itself is going to do it, yes. But to drop it completely misses the point that it can contribute.

Man is part of the 10,000 things... so focusing on any of that is focusing on the manifestation of the generative process which we ascribe as Dao. To me, that is part of the 'return' or at least the connection. Maybe you can give me your thoughts. Thanks!

yes, not sure why I said "similar"; I usually think in terms of 'appearance', 'image' or 'shape'. thanks for that trigram reminder. At least I didn't say 'elephant'... One of my friends in china has a nickname of 'xiang'... because he has a slight appearance [similar] to an elephant [face].

I follow that idea but it reminds me of Zhuang Zi "that and this"; so not sure I would would decouple "Dao" and "De" so easily. To me, "De" is the "Dao" in things. Chapter 51: Dao produces <-- Dao Virtue rears <-- De (and anywhere below Virtue is used) Forms appear Circumstances complete <-- oldest manuscripts have meaning of 'inner capacity complete' Thus it is: All beings Venerate Dao and cherish Virtue. Dao is honored and Virtue cherished, Not by heaven’s mandate, but by nature’s processes Thus: Dao gives life. Virtue nurtures life, <-- oldest manuscripts omit ‘virtue’ and read as Dao as the source Nourishes and sustains life, Encloses and comforts life, Fosters and protects life. Giving life without making claim, Acting without relying, Guiding without ruling; This is called deep Virtue.

Yes, that was the direction I was taking it (how to phrase karma minus any morality) but I may of misunderstood the point they were making. @Twinner: You keep saying it cannot be described and you keep describing it. So I am maybe just misunderstanding some points being made. @Allen: It goes both ways or was that a Freudian slip; Maybe you don't want others to unintentionally disrupt your thoughts, beliefs, and ways of life. Joking aside. Hope you stick around the subforum.