dawei

Wu = 'Rare goods tempt men to do wrong.' English/Feng = "Precious things lead one astray". Henricks = "Goods that are hard to obtain pose an obstacle to one's travels" Yutang = 'Rare, valuable goods keep their owners awake at night.' ---- Good catch on the variations. Here is what is going on from what I can tell. Wu translates 行-妨 = Xing as 'behavior' and Feng as 'harm': Do Wrong E-F translates 行妨 = Xing Feng as travel-interference; Astray Hendricks translation, based on older text seems to ignore the older text. His meaning is purely the latter text by future association: one's travels Yutang translates 妨 (harm, interfere) as 防 (guard). In his commentary he says, this line means, "Keep one on one's guard"; keep their owners awake at night Yutang puts the subject as the owner [of goods] rather that the seeker [of goods]. --- Further Points --- Second half of the Line in question: MWD A: 使人-之-行方 - People/Messengers/Others-?? (方-very old and base character) MWD B: 使人-之-行仿 - People/Messengers/Others-?? (仿-imitate/copy) WB: 令-人-行-妨 - Cause-Man-travel/behavior-hinder/obstruction/harm Notice that MWD A, MWD B, and WB all have different characters (方 vs 仿 vs 妨). 使人 - this seems to be a compound in older text but the later WB treats it as "cause people" (令-人). 行方 - This exists in a few old texts (particularly 行方者) but not sure what to make of it here.

I wanted to let you know that the books premise of telling the DDJ through a wandering Lao Zi was too hard to pass up, so I bought a copy. Thanks for sharing this at the site. And I think it would be great to continue to see Liao, Ni, and Yutang posted as you all who are doing that have the energy to do so. I like the mix, regardless if I agree or not.

I think coupled with the first word in each block, "can" (能), it's easy to see why many would turn it into a question, but a kind of ordered list is permitted too. I see very, very few do the latter, but Wagner is one of them. thanks.

What last line, since what you write here is the first two characters? You mean the very last line of the entire chapter? I'll go with that idea in case that is what you meant: WB Text [Tr. Wagner] 功遂身退 - To withdraw [as a ruler] with one's person once the task is achieved 天之道載 - That is the Way of Heaven WB Notes [Tr. Wagner] The four seasons alternate, when the task [of one of them] is completed, there is a change [to the next one]. Wagner interprets this in light of a line from Sima Qian's history (史记): "In the sequence of the four seasons, the [season] that has completed it's task departs"

I actually referenced TCM as the basis of Hun-Po, not alchemy or mystical Taoism... which the former is a branch which most any have no hard ache with. This idea is also embraced by Medical Qigong theory as well. So it is more medical than mystical, IMO... but I know it doesn't sound that way. This archtype has a very long history and helped form concepts of Yin and Yang. that all aside, it's not clear what exactly is "separating". I am just inclined to see it as something to do with Po since that is in the sentence, Tao is not, except by possible implication of "embrace ONE", but I am not sure I accept that to mean the spirit Tao... it could even be the 'body and soul' as one, to not let them separate... but I'm not ready to say Spirit of Tao is wrong either. I do want to get through this chapter a little more deeper and will keep your idea in mind. Thanks!

Actually, based on the character 植 (plant or grow), Tianshi's translation here is the most straightforward I have seen from him This really bothered me that the original character was changed so much without much basis (from my research). Hendricks was stretching his application, IMO; maybe too many are following WB's ideas to fit his interpretation I am losing faith in Hendricks as the chapters go on

I'm glad you brought up 已 because I was considering why Wang Bi, in his commentary suggests one is "better off with nothing" (instead of the idea of just stopping). "getting rid of it altogether" explains it . I agree the first character zhi (植) means a plant (or grow), yet Hendricks argues for accumulate to fit to the "filling" vs "stopping" idea. I found that another zhi (殖) is also considered and carries meanings of breed, reproduce, yield, planting, colonize. See http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE6ZdicAEZdic96.htm The Wang Bi first character is Chi (持) to mean 'hold' or 'support' and so one can see how this easily gets into the idea of holding something that is being filled. Also, WB makes a reference to DDJ 38 不失德 (not to lose De-virtue). So again, one can see his influence on the text is to emphasis "holding on and not losing something", while the original does not appear to emphasize that.

yea, I also prefer this water symbolism. One problem I see is that the first character of the first line seems elusive. I've read Hendricks' comment in his Guodian as to what he uses but it sounds more like guess work. What we're left with is an image of filling something to just the right amount and being done with it; but this doesn't really reconcile with the previous chapters on how Dao is empty (even though full). This conveys fill up just enough and your done. So wondering if anyone has thoughts in this direction.

WU's version uses 'soul' and 'vital spirit' and 'harmony' in such a way that it reads nicely; I see a little similar to my usage of ending 'without disharmony'. I am not settled on this first line though since this mentions 'Wu Li' (無離): Wu = maintain their perfect harmony Feng/English = Avoid separation Hendricks = Without letting them leave Ni = Without the slightest separation Liao = Avoid the separation The word 'separation' is a standard translation. At least Wu tries to find a reason for not separating and so uses "harmony" (which is the angle I took). The only interesting thing about Hendricks is that this could imply avoiding [premature] death since the Soul (Hun-Po) leaves the body on death. He does not suggest this angle in his commentary but this is another angle I see is possible. I've not found anyone who relates the Hun-Po theory enough in a commentary to pull in it's meaning as related to traditional chinese medicine (TCM), so I am not quite settled on the proper angle. It should be also noted that the Hun-Po will leave the body at other times; say shock, coma, or when one sleeps. As an example of the latter, if you stay up all night, the Hun does not leave the body (as it wants) and thus remains in a slight state of agitation; ergo, your body feels the effects of an "all-nighter" with shakes at times; TCM would say this is because the Hun was not able to leave on it's nightly rounds. Since this is a natural state of 'separating', it doesn't quite jive with the standard translations which imply to avoid the separation. So the death angle may be viable but not the sleep angle, unless there is another common aspect I am missing. I have not really dived into the rest of the chapter enough to say what meaning I find which might change my direction of the opening too. I see Manitou posted Yutang's version which has "Mystic Vision"... maybe I got that from him since I do have his commentary... so I cannot claim that as original @cheya: thanks

Thanks for that translation. I felt that 'good' was really slight-of-hand for another meaning. yes, this trouble with flood control was all too pervasive in early china. Reminds me of the Gong Gong Shi tribes role as well... http://www.yutopian.com/names/09/9hong.html

I only want to comment on the first few lines now since there is so much going on. The opening line has Ying Po (營魄) and Bao Yi (抱一) is translated variously as: 載營魄抱一 Wu = In keeping the spirit and the vital soul together, Feng/English = Carrying body and soul and embracing the one, Hendricks = In nourishing the soul and embracing the One Ni = Can you always embrace Oneness (next line has body and mind) Liao = While carrying Body and Consciousness and embracing the only One Power Most, other than Hendricks, follow the older HSB commentary where Ying Po (營魄) is equated with Hun Po (魂魄) as to a very important archtype dual meaning of earthbound-soul and heavenbound-soul; also as Yang-Yin; also as Dragon-Tiger. These are to be harmonized/balanced; not in disharmony. Line 2 has Zhuan Qi (專氣) which Wu has as "Gathering your Vital Energy" and Hendricks as "Concentrating your Breath", I think it is the combination of both because the previous line having 'Po' which has it's location in the lungs so both lines are connected by the idea of a "vital Qi-breath of the soul". Line 3 has Xuan Lan (玄覽) which has: Wu = Inner vision Feng/English = Primal Vision Hendricks = Profound Mirror Ni = Inner vision Liao = True Original Vision Because of what is going on here so far in the opening lines, I would translate this as "Mystic Vision". Here is how I would treat the opening three lines: Can you house the [hun-po] soul, and contain them as One without disharmony? Can you focus Qi-breath to attain the softness of a newborn child? Can you cleanse the mystic vision to be without distortion?

Here is Hendricks based on the Guodian: (Translated by Robert G. Henricks) 1. To accumulate until you have filled it, 2. Is not so good as stopping [in time]. 3. When swift flowing waters gather against it, 4. It cannot hold out very long. 5. When gold and jade fill your chambers, 6. No one can safeguard them. 7. Arrogance resulting from wealth and rank, 8. On its own brings disaster. 9. When the deed is done withdraw; 10. Such is Heaven's Way! Line 1 and 3 have different characters.

I have a few issues with this chapter, starting with the first sentence. The idea of 'highest good' always seemed too pat (trite) an opening. And the MWD manuscript has a different character in the third character: WB: 上-善-若-水 Shang-Shan-Ruo-Shui High-Good-Like-Water MWD: 上-善-治-水 Shang-Shan-Zhi-Shui High-Good-Order-Water Maybe some ideas might be: The best measures [are as] orderly [as] water The best measures govern [as] water ---- Another issue is that of lines 5-11 (using Hendricks, others may vary a bit); Who or what is the subject? It shifts from translator to translator. Wu = Man Feng/English = Man Hendricks = Good [thing] Liao = Tao and man (?) Ni = Man (one of universal nature) Although man is used by a few, he is nowhere mentioned. I do find one translation which inserts this idea in the opening line as: "The Superior Good Man is like Water" -- Lok San Ho Also, Line 7, Hendricks ends with "Heaven"; others have "gentleness and kindness" or "benevolence". In the older text it is Heaven but the later text have the core Confucian word, "Ren" (仁), which some may recall from Chapter 5 as "bu ren" (heaven and earth are not benevolent, or are impartial, etc). --- Rene, nice that you mentioned that line about 'dwelling'... "keep to the ground" and "close to the land" seems silly nonsense. What is natural for water is an analogy; It has a close connection to earth (地) since it doesn't raise up against gravity; it naturally seeks lower ground.

Rene. Interesting points. I think your first point above is correct; the parallel structure implies as you said but only implies some sort of parallel picture. I see the second point as partial true; It is in us but doesn't mean we possess it in the same magnitude and/or quality as Heaven and Earth. I simply care it to Qi; the Qi in me is not same as another in magnitude and/or quality. I can build it up or not. Like food, I can eat well or not. our results will differ. I tend to see this difference as existing between Heaven and Earth, and people... until one seeks out to minimize those differences. Just my thoughts.

I like that Rene To borrow from Tianshi, I was thinking of the word 'not self-embodied'. I guess I need confess my taking liberties too

I practice neidan so I understand where your going with the explanation. thanks.

your first four lines are common and understandable. Then the fifth line has a slightly different break from common translations on the Sage. ok, that makes sense. Former and latter... body vs non-body because of wai? You read that from the later line of "wu si" , non-being embody, from ebodiment. but the whole point is the progression of meaning: long lasting means embodiment?

Philosophers asked; Why is there something rather than nothing. I ask: why are you here rather than not here?

The main beef I have with translations of this chapter is the opening use of "everlasting", "forever" or "eternal". I know I have read other text of this period and they say even heaven and earth have an end, so a literal meaning is probably not meant. As well, this has become an idiom expression to mean "endure while the earth lasts". Hendricks has an interesting comment that there is an early say, "Heaven Covers and Earth Supports"; they live or exist for the sake of the ten thousand things (not for themself). I only find Yutang also shares this phrase in his commentary. Here are the two original characters for Chang and Jiu the opening line: 天長地久 tiān cháng dì jiǔ Heaven "Chang" >> Earth "Jiu" >> Only the English/Feng translation above is NOT parallel for lines 1 and 4, which I think the latter is a definition for the former. Each line literally: line 1: Heaven-long [in distance]-Earth-long [in time] line 4: Therefore-capable-long-life IMO, however you translate line 4 should reflect that meaning in line 1. In fact, upon further inspection, if I am allowed a second 'beef'... none of them really tie together the first and second parts enough. Hendricks has a hint of it with the word "preserved"; I never realized how much I can disagree with the common translation of what I thought were simple passages...

I see the character simply as it's two parts suggest, to me: People & 2. Not in terms of picking, but togetherness, like 'two heads are better than one'. Anyways, thanks for the explanation, now I understand your use.

I know what you mean!