dawei

Your 'truth' is really your opinion... your just not being honest with yourself about such ideas. So what you really mean is: Is your opinion worth repeating? If it helps your emotional stability then go for it... if that is what you need to get through the day... take another shot at it... Maybe shut off the computer and walk outside... it is actually cheaper as you are paying for your internet service. Maybe you hope to get the most of those dollars spent... so it is really about dollars and nonsense posting which makes your emotion stable... Whatever it takes... go for it...

But you always repeat yourself over and over and over... It is a sign that you 'feel' you are not being listened to... You are being listened to and at times what is shared is simply pushed asided as not useful... but you want to push it again and again. Maybe this can help you digest what your feeling with your repetition. Saying it the second time only seems to help you but if that is helping calm the emotions then so be it.

ChiDragon... you have a habit of stating an emotionalism of "This is my last comment on this" and it is very, very, very rare that you do not post again... You usually post more. This means that your emotion and your desire are not in sync. So let's get it in sync. I would recommend that you stop this emotionalism posting and if you have something to say; say it; If you have nothing to say, then be silent. Then if you find something of interest to post again... post again... this is really simple. Your input is valuable but the emotional content is yours to deal with.

If I properly understand what your are saying that I am saying.... I think that is right. they were those who were "able to see the subtle and mysterious through their deep intelligence" This would be the point of the opening lines.... and then it says: They are too profound to be understood or known... (typical read) , from 深不可識 But the oldest texts have: 深不可志 I am inclined to say that it should be read more like: [their] profoundness (or insight or attainment) is not of the Will.

As MB rightly points out, the opening lines really define the meaning of this section... So, 夫 is a reference to 'those men' of the opening line... or if you translate the opening as "the man of Dao..." then it is a reference to that 'man' of Dao. I am not trying to suggest that the meaning of 夫 is 'man' here; but rather that the interpretation of the transitional participle is in this particular case is a reference to the man/men/people in the opening lines.

And as you pointed out, or may of meant indirectly, it is in the outer chapters we get a quote of Lao... nice topic.

That's alright. Thanks for the comment. The holdout lines were 7,8, and 13,14... I am hoping for a better inspiration in another draft.

I thought you would appreciate that

Getting back to the chapter study... here is my first attempt at a translation sticking to the MWD versions as much as possible: 1. To look and not see it, this is [why Dao is] styled hidden. 2. To listen and not hear it, this is [why Dao is] styled silent. 3. To grasp and not obtain it, this is [why Dao is] is styled even and level. 4. These three are beyond measure 5. Yet they form a Unity 6. This Unity: 7. Above it, there is nothing within reach 8. Below it, there is nothing to regard 9. Breath-taking! IT cannot be named 10. It restores the [ten thousand to the] original state of Wu-realm. 11. This is called [uniting] the Formless [to its] Form; [uniting] the Wu-realm [to its] appearance. 12. This is called suddenly viewing at a distance [the Unity]. 13. To fall away from it, there is nothing next to see [about it] 14. To welcome it, there is nothing before to see [about it] 15. To grasp Dao today is to govern what exists today 16. This is to know the [Way of the] ancient beginnings 17. [All] This is called, The passage of Dao.

That is good... We seem to have arrived at a similar explanation in the end. And yes, I think there will be many applications one can find.

Hey Rene... yes... Gia-Fu... I merely addressed him by his family name (xing) as is common to do among chinese. You referenced him by his given name which is common to do among western folks... same physical person in the end I would like to hear that side-story and I have an article I can share as well about him. Thanks!

I finally had a breakthrough on sticking to the MWD lines: To look and not see it, this is why [Dao] is named hidden. To listen and not hear it, this is why [Dao] is named silent. To grasp [the darkness of De] and not obtain it, this is why [Dao] is named level/smooth/easy. Going to step away for a while to let this sink in, in regards to the rest of the chapter...

Leveling or even smooth don't make so much sense on the surface but I found other translators who followed this line of thought. I am ok with keeping 夷 in the line as I found that the Wang Bi commentary also has it mentioned. But I think the key to understanding it is in the other chapters (41 and 53) in combination with the last lines... Why is Dao said to be 夷? Some call it easy, level, smooth, etc... but I think the last 3 lines are the key; there is a picture of 'regulating' life via Dao. Here, regulating means to 'smooth' it out; level it out; make it easy to arise and return... Dao does this for the ten thousand. 愚 can mean unintelligent or deceived; the mind is deceived, not clear. 昏 can mean dark, confused, muddled, mixed up; the mind is confused, not clear.

I have simply stayed with the original text I found as attributed to MWD A and B; the above for B... and wanted to exhaust a look at it and why De might of been added (mistakenly or not); I did come to one reason why based on the Zhuang Zi passage. But I have kept your character close at 'hand'. I also went to the Hendrick's version and I see he also uses that character. So I am not sure why two version appears to exist for MWD B. I will say that 捪 works better towards keeping parallel senses (sight, hear, touch); and the later text simply exchange 搏 for it. The challenge seems to be, if one sticks to MWD A/B, is to maintain the parallel association between lines 1-6 and 13-15. Hendricks has: 1. We look at it but do not see it; 2. We name this "the minute." 3. We listen to it but do not hear it; 4. We name this "the rarefied." 5. We touch it but do not hold it; 6. We name this "the level and smooth." ... 13. This is called the formless form, 14. The substanceless image. 15. This is called the subtle and indistinct. It is my opinion that 13-15 are a restatement of the "three" and so should tie back to the opening lines. I am now moving on to look at the use of 捪 for the third item...

Me too... but not finding a suitable explanation yet. I am inclined to accept Legge's translation as in the right direction as the words, stupidity and dark, need to carry a similar [negative] meaning. The word for stupidity is Yu (愚) and can mean unintelligent or deceived as well... so dark, confused, muddled, mixed up (for 昏) seems to be a valid pairing. But we may not agree and that is ok as it has caused us to look deeper and get to this point. I agree with this. I see the DDJ as in the oral tradition which required brevity of words, parallelism, rhythm, etc... but rich in symbolism, if not metaphoric and poetic.

I'll let the mods decide that. I have already reported your posting here. If you want to discuss a chapter, feel free.. otherwise, you should stay to a thread you have something to contribute to. THanks.

You will be pleasantly surprised that I found a possible reason that De (德) was added to Hun (昏)... Hun can mean dark, confused, chaos.... which may at first sight be understood as close in meaning to Xuan (玄), often translated as mystery. There is a passage in Zhuang Zi, Heaven and Earth which states: "That closing and silencing is like the union of heaven and earth (at the beginning). The union, effected, as it is, might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness (昏), but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning) (玄德)" -- Tr. Legge Thus, ZZ equated Hun with Xuan De. The problem I run into is making sense of the line and keeping it parallel to the others. In the first three lines, the first word contrasts to the four-fifth word and their relationship is named in the eight word: 視之而弗見□之曰微 = See , Not See , Hidden 聽之而弗聞命之曰希 = Hear , Not Hear , Silent [德]昏之而弗得命之曰夷 = Dark (mysterious De) Not obtained (or not harmony) , Even/Level/Smooth Yi (夷) is also in chapters 41 and 53, so it's meaning can be inferred from there to stay consistent to its meaning in other chapters. In 41, Yi is contrasted with uneven. In 53, Dao is said to be Yi... So it would seem that Yi should carry a positive meaning but to not obtain [harmony] from mysterious De would be negative. It is clear to me that this last line would cause problems in understanding and why latter versions changed the first word and the last word, and then worked backwards from the negation to figure out a proper meaning to be parallel to the first two lines.

I don't think he gets any money from it... and no to the latter. Please stick to the study aspect of the chapters and don't just troll. Thanks.

Except that something which is invisible cannot be measured.

命 = 令 command from the mouth 口

I see. Thanks for clarifying.

I hope you realize he is not a teacher... but your welcome to call him whatever you want if it helps you. Back to class.

If it is just a game to you then why are you in three threads asking questions about classical chinese and the DDJ? I guess it is because there is something your interested in about the text... as you said, your purpose is to listen and recite it.

I would not try to explain a purpose for a single chapter; there are 81 chapters worth reading. But it seems you actually did find a purpose for the chapter. That's good. I'm not into memorizing and reciting although oral history required it before books came along.

It shows the character is a negation... It is a rather strange comment to say that when it comes to "classic", one cannot rely on Etymology (origin of a word)... It is a good resource. I think people can decide for themselves if it is useful for them or not.