dawei

I used to think that the work Liezi was an older text and thus the origin for the references of the Four Greats. In preparing to share the work, I found that the Liezi is not as old as most first attributed (at least before Zhuangzi who references the person Liezi). Due to Graham's scholarship on the topic, western sinologists would eventually adopt a more recent date but not too far after 300 AD. What I share next is purely speculative on my part as I have very little background in what follows. I have read and re-read some of this stuff so many times over the years but mostly because I have little understand for what it all means. I am only more and more familiar with the words but not sure I understand it. The passage here in Gu San Fen has always bothered me because it was not in the same order as Liezi and has much more detail. As well, it talks of a numbering sequence as: 1>2>4>3. I could not find this anywhere until I took the 3 as a reference to trigrams. And what I found may be forced as 1,2,4,8 would really be the expected order (so I think) if one was looking at the trigram cycle: Then there is another later Han work that talks similar to the Gu San Fen but included 5 (Wu Xing- 5 elements/phases) after 3. I was now stumbling around with a 1>2>4>3>5 sequence in my head. This lead me to read up on the 5 elements which were assigned numbers of 1-5 based on their cosmogonic order in which they came into being (water, fire, wood, metal, earth). Then 6-10 were added for direction: (1-water-6 > 2-fire-7 > 3-wood-8 > 4-metal-9 > 5-earth-10). If one maps the mutual overcoming sequence to the Lou Shu Map, it results in: Taking the numbers for the elements result in: 1 > 2 > 4 > 3 > 5. This appears to really make no sense to compare this to the Gu San Fen sequence because the text is really trying to describe [mutual] generation. It just seems an uncanny coincidence.

maybe I’m getting too pedantic, but how is that an example for Taoist search for immortality? I guess you mean by appealing to such stories and not about any specific practices or goals. their difference on emptiness seems to me that a Buddhist can sit in an empty room and say everything is there. A Taoist can sit in a full room say say, nothing is there.

Where do you dream up condone ? We're all here online... He's hidden in some god forbidden mountain with no chance of taking any true action on another, other than maybe a papaya... relax a bit.

I've known Steve (SJ) a long time... across several forums. I'm used to his expressions and meaning. He clarified it was an exaggeration. I believe him.

Thanks... so the Celestial Masters who cite Laozi... and many see Daoism coming out of Shamanism... but the organized idea is in 200 CE.. but not a 1,000 years earlier when shamans were interacting with deities? That earlier, original way seems a kind of forsaking one's body... but I will accept the ideas may be different. IMO, Shaman's were intercessors between heaven and earth because they withdrew their 'self' from the equation to let the spirit flow. So I am willing to see there may be a difference between a path where you are trying to reach immortality and a path where you are with deities.

What date do you put on daoist search for immortality ?

Can you cite the source of the bold ?

I see almost all varieties of energy along a spectrum... so anger too. It can range from initial gut reaction to dangerous situations (that then respond along a spectrum) to middle of the road, BS semi-rage reactions (let's not forget road-rage as one of the more banal ones) to reactionary feelings of injustice (and some of that is nothing to do with justice but our minds may create the idea) to pissed as hell to ... and now we get more towards suppressed and holding it in stuff... and overloaded and ready to explode. It is a symptom of completely open and free to Blocked; I would say that the former is more powering and the later more powerlessness. Anger can be powerful when it is rightly sourced and released. Particularly if it holds no grudge thereafter, because that means it can come with compassion as well. Whether one should more often be of a disposition to not feel the rising need of anger may be a different issue (or is it?).

I saw that Dan's books were in a 2nd edition and asked him to comment. I'm passing along what he said:

If you have felt or interacted with Quan Yin, you would know the energy is open, receptive, caring, compassionate... we could use genders to aptly associate that. It is something to just experience on some level too. You are, as usually, outdoing yourself as the greatest image finder ever. Thank you. If one seeks presence... be present. In context, we're talking a deity not just a lady. 观音娘娘 or 王母娘娘

You have not divined the Scott's 30 roll pack I raise your OM with OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Good you asked... I was wondering if this was a new slang for, '5 Girls'.. which would clearly weaken our immune system

The silence of One hand clapping ...

Interesting point on 'pregnant', like bloating sensation? Me too on bold. I was suggesting that there is LDT breathing which is 24x7, once one can establish it as automatic. But I suspect you are talking about using it with some for focus, the way someone might say sit and do the MCO or simply put their awareness on breath and/or LDT. SO I was wondering how do you describe the LDT breathing you are doing in the midst of a plank? What and where is your mind focus/awareness/intent?

interesting to see this thread again given the recent world record for plank at over 8 hours Like Spotless and Dwai said, I follow LDT breathing 24x7 as a natural belly breath [as baby's are observed to do]. But I am assuming with the comments above, are you putting some focus or intent onto the breath or LDT; or like adding awareness to that part? When you 'circulation within the LDT breathing' is that something other than inhale/exhale? I recall my Medical Qigong master saying in some things we had done before, to 'use Qi instead of muscles to move'... or maybe in this case to hold the position. I'm curious if you have tried anything like that, or you may mean this is the point of your LDT breathing with planks.

Also see on the Bums: https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/523-the-jade-emperors-mind-seal-classic/

This may be the three stages of Zen, ala Daoist: Wei Wu Wei

Sure, if you're going to take sentences instead of using a translated word. You choose not to translate it, and that is fine. I think you're imaging too much with examples. I don't know about most of what you suggest folks might be trying to do... and I left it a long time ago... no worries.

I'm good with that. Although you seemed to have problems with visualization now you insist the classical qigong principle of Yi (intention). I don't really see them as that much different but I think we came closer to common ground. Thanks.

if you change the system or environment, you can claim anything is different. In Taiji, the pressure differential will cause movement and it can be up or down. I just see you making an argument that that the Qi is attracted to the mind and thus flows upwards. That is not the complete picture of what the mind and body are doing still. Qi flows. What influences that flow is myriad and can cause it to go in a direction and even not return so easily.

Korea's outbreak is largely due to a church (some say cult) group that congregates together often... another argument for not engaging in group stuff. Across China, restaurants are shut down. Weddings are not allowed. Ships and flights are rightly stopped by nations. The major companies like IBM, Google, Microsoft, etc... are cancelling attendance to events. Yes. I had a call from a friend who is nervous about attending an annual, international event here in Orlando. I can't believe that companies are forcing people to go.

That cruise ship that could not set in port after several country denials... then Cambodia allows them to land and come to ground... to a ceremony of roses and hugs from the leader

That seems a hard sell... try and say that to any acupuncturist who works with ascending and descending meridians. The natural tendency is, Qi moves.

damn... who pulled a daoist theological rabbbit out of the hat. I try to carefully tread about dao though opinions abound. The deities or the roll call abound too. I like your circumspect position about transcendent concepts.

closer