Daeluin

I was getting the sense it relates to how one's testicles begin to draw up close to and perhaps somewhat within the body as one progresses down the path. This is presumably related to how one's jing available for procreation is full, yet without desire, and so becomes more dormant and still, the reproductive organs unused and thus evolving back into the direction before puberty. Adepts are like newborn babes. Poisonous insects do not sting them, Predatory animals do not hunt them, And birds of prey do not carry them off. Though their bones are flexible and their sinews pliant, They easily hold firm. Not knowing sexual desire -- yet aroused. Such is the potency of their jing. Hollering all day -- yet never hoarse. Such is the potency of their qi. Such jing/qi harmony indicates an intimacy with Dao, And this intimacy is called luminous clarity. Being full seems beneficial, But to use the mind to direct the qi is strenuous. Such mind-force is exhausting and contrary to Dao. This contrariness invites premature death. dao de jing 55, tl Liu Ming

It relates to "power." The principle of power is also related to "virtue." De. To accomplish this is not easy - it requires diligent cultivation, and cultivation that is properly balanced and refined in order to first accumulate what may not feel powerful at all, but becomes more powerful over time. At this point, we have differences in application of power. Long power... perhaps (I don't know) it is similar to the power of a river, with a river's wide turns and undeniable momentum. Use of this type of power is a little more difficult than other types because (it seems to me) one needs a little more time to manifest the flowing power and make proper connection to another in application. Conversely, so called short power seems to me like a more simple, less-tended burst of power - it is allowed to simply leave one's self and enter the other, at which point this power is left for the other to deal with. Yet for the other, who likely has little ability to deal with their own stiffnesses and blockages, is faced with a TNT like explosion of energy that is seeking balance within their body (much like a burst of electricity), and it will equalize in the quickest way available. Just like lightning does. Yet the energy is not electricity, it is qi. The body is a very qi dependent system, so perhaps an apt comparison is that of a computer being struck by a small burst of lightning. Even though small, it is completely unprepared to be dealt with. As soon as the energy reaches a component that is not prepared for the burst, that component is "fried." In computers these are chips and capacitors. In the body these are organs and tissues. From what I've read, there are many ways to apply the power more deliberately so that it accomplishes a more directed effect, beyond just short, long. There are many "named" types of power application. But please remember that virtue is the key to developing this power to begin with. Why would one with virtue knowingly intend to be so destructive, both to their own virtuous qi and to their own soul integrity, let alone the coarse destruction of another? Superior de has no doing: there is nothing whereby it does. Inferior de does: there is something whereby it does.

In the old days, even when word of mouth would make someone "popular," there were still limitations to how popular they could get. Population is one factor - in 1950s there were ~2.5 Billion people, and in China popularity could spread to how many of them? Spreading via word of mouth is somewhat organic, and the web of influence (and its shen ripples) might be more manageable, than say.... 7 Billion people. Seven Billion people with access to tools that can spread popularity incredibly quickly and that will very often have ideas about the focus of this popularity that are blown way out of proportion. I can only imagine the shen-gong required to successfully navigate being the focus of such energies. An incredibly developed internal martial artist may develop mysterious powers, but I suspect the skill required to deal with these energies goes hand in hand with the skill to be massively invisible, for lack of better words. In these forums there are many stories of the dissonances created when popular teachings and teachers are taken as panacea. What does it feel like to have thousands of people try a method you advocate only to have it fail to work and have blame focused your way? Is this much different than having thousands of viewers watching youtube videos of popular artists projecting energy related to how this guy must be a fake/cheating/in-violation-of-god/heathen/saint/hero/i-want-power-like-them/etc? I'm not really a follower of global spiritual personas, but it seems like one needs to be the caliber of the dalai lama or wang liping or amma, etc to work in this realm without being controlled by it. Does fighting just for the sake of being the best cause any undesired ripples at this level, or create any undesired influence within the celestial mechanism? These are also often figures whom vow, like bodhisattvas, to return again to this realm - begging the question if the trade off here is related to one's spiritual freedom. Wang Liping is an interesting case, and seems to have some skill being hidden in plain sight. I don't have these answers, but it feels like a poignant question to me.

I am the gatekeeper.

Haha... indeed it is. I recall winning a philisophical argument here when someone gave up after I mentioned Zhuangzi having a conversation with a frog. Case in point, here is an excellent example of battles of the mind. http://www.aikidofaq.com/history/story.html

If we are speaking of "masters", and they are "zhen", then we witness a fight that takes place in the mind. The moment one mind telegraphs a movement that is detected by the other, the fight is over. This is with minds of relatively equal development. Remember, superior virtue has no action; inferior virtue acts. As soon as one acts, it reveals how it may be defeated. When two minds are not close in strength, it is likely the weaker mind will crumple if the stronger mind is revealed. Or you may see things like the attacker crumpling to the floor as soon as they make contact with the "master," or bouncing off the "master," and so on. Not easy. Much taiji is practiced outside in peaceful surroundings. If the xing is not trained to be stable when surrounded by the chaotic, ungrounded energy of people shouting around a ring, then you may witness a taiji practitioner who has no root like in this match. As in dao humility gives strength. Having a stronger root and being lower allows one greater stability and more opportunity to upset the opponent's root. This does not mean one is slow. This does not mean one does not evade when attacked. Rooted between heaven and earth, working on refining, over time one comes to move and strike as thunder and lightning. This requires surrendering one's ego and becoming an empty vessel, so it is not likely one will witness such things in fights.

Interesting that you mention fire here. The trigram of fire ☲ contains postcelestial yang surrounding precelestial yin. This precelestial yin is related to emptiness and I believe is the merging of the precelestial jing,qi,shen. Liu Yiming calls these yuan jing, yuan qi, and yuan shen, yang within the postcelestial, but yin within the precelestial. It is the precelestial yin of emptiness which forms what he calls the dharma-body; the body of the rupadhatu realm. When moving in the direction of the postcelstial, fire burns, combusts. When moving in the direction of the precelestial, it turns to light, illuminating rather than combusting, and then as this illumination stabilizes the light becomes clear - transforming to absolute clarity. A good standing meditation to explore this dynamic is the usual feet shoulder width apart, relaxed, shoulders back, the space between the shoulder-blades relaxed, open, palms about shoulder width apart, at about shoulder level, palms facing away from the body as if pushing someone away, at a distance that feels relaxed and open and balanced. Elbows are dropped, relaxed, empty. Fingers empty and relaxed, pointing up to the heavens. Normally I practice this in a sequence of other standing meditations related to the other trigrams (here fire following thunder, then followed by lake), but this general principle of body shaping may be explored, and different influences may be felt depending on what type of qi one is stabilizing within the standing. As it is part of a sequence, I do not hold it for extended periods of time and do not know if this is advisable, but it seems like something that may be incorporated well with a mix of other types of qigong. I note that this basic shape is also made in the horse stance in a couple of chen style taijiquan forms. In general I've noticed that this clarity found within ☲ comes from a unity and stability within heart-mind, and deepens though openness within stillness. Allow the form to nurture the formless. In the beginning it is possible this will cause combustion, in which case one should take care to surrender one's ego wholeheartedly into becoming light, so as to transform the combustion and not burn up one's energies. And then work on clarification. I don't know how this resonates with other practices here, it is merely something I have been exploring lately. (I will also add that a good way of grounding fire is the principle of earth ☷, receptivity, where the arms are are straight with elbows slightly bent, by the slide but slightly forward with the palms flat, parallel to the earth and just in front of the legs, whereby there is receptivity to the energies of both earth and heaven. If one moves the palms gently apart and to the sides, this is called parting the clouds of the mind. It may also be good to note that the mind has a proclivity toward becoming active in these gentle receptive postures, so it should be surrendered, letting go of attachments and allowing the energies held by the mind to relax, empty out and merge with the breath and become a part of the whole.)

Not sure. We are upgrading the forum software soon. Maybe it will work again soon.

The ancient ones were simple hearted and blended with the common people They did not shine forth They did not rule with cleverness So the nation was blessed Now the rulers are filled with clever ideas and the lives of people are filled with hardship So the nation is cursed He who knows the play of Tao and Te knows the nature of the universe Tao brings forth Te from its own being Te expands in all directions filling every corner of the world becoming the splendor of all creation Yet at every moment Te seeks Tao This is the movement that guides the universe This is the impulse that leads all things back home 65, Jonathan Star For me, turning back has its trials, yet the impulse to turn back is itself natural. I simply do my best to follow this impulse. Where the ego fades to virtuosity, I am surrounded by harmony and synchronicity.

Great thread, thanks for the hard work. I have been taught to use zi qiao and lower dan tien method. Right now I am only into about a month of consistent daily practice, and have noticed that I need to be very careful and gentle with how much I work with zi qiao, as it definitely seems to tax my yuan qi quite a bit, though this also achieves what seems to be the most effective results. So I am being patient and gentle, as my yuan qi is still replenishing, and is used by both my body and my cultivation practice. In the past I have focused somewhat more on lightly turning back the light of the mind as a whole, more of a gentle inward focus, rather than drawing upon the qi qiao directly, and as my ming / yuan qi / yuan jing has replenished through time and augmented with internal martial arts like taijiquan and bagua, the yuan shen has appeared naturally out in front of zi qiao at the right time (shen ming flashes). When it happened there was just this bright light appearing in front of my 3rd eye and I had no idea what it was, as I walked home from class one day. Now that I understand the principles better, I am able to put zi qiao practice some, but also now I understand the importance of balancing this practice with intent to care for my body. In the Wang Liping manual this zi qiao and lower dantien method also seems to be utilized, complete with replenishing ming and then working with zi qiao more specifically as yuan shen appears. A&P, in this manual and also in Damo Mitchel's White Moon on the Mountain Peak zi qiao is described as opening at the 3rd eye and connecting inward to the pineal gland at the center of the head. In the later book Yuan Shen is worked with at the more advanced stages rather than after replenishing ming. It is said this is done because after one reverses the five elements and resides within xuan guan and stabilizes, the yuan shen work will progress until it appears in front of zi qiao as a clear white ball, literally the white moon on the mountain peak, which can then be worked with as the alchemical ingredient to transmute to emptiness. In general it seems this phenomena involving yuan shen can be started at from the beginning, or at a later stage, but regardless may not be complete and full until it has been able to be replenished by the yuan qi (which is replenished by yuan jing). Hence perhaps the methods of combining it with lower dantien work to augment the process. Working with it from the beginning, it seems one will develop more xing experience. However the ming elements are important as well, as they are what contain the xing and keep body as well as I believe the energy body healthy. I'm liking the idea of working with them together, and have found that certain times of the day, month, year are better for one or the other. We see talk of yuan shen leading to void, but my understanding is that void is the merging of all three: yuan shen, yuan qi, and yuan jing. Already at the yuan shen layer we can see that it requires transmutation from yuan qi, which is transmuted from yuan jing. It follows (to me) that for yuan shen to *fully* transmute to void, requires the full completeness from all three to some degree. In my school we practice working with the void/emptiness regularly, as we are able, and using it within the body to help nourish the whole and lead to more advanced practice. Obviously there are many perspectives, and I'm exploring those that cross my path and forming my own sense of what is right for me. I really appreciate that everyone in this thread is harmonizing, and that care is taken to observe that different practices are important at different stages.

Mountains become volcanoes - they are like pimples that shoot things out. I understand the reason for your metaphor, and it is a good one. I like to think of it as merging polarities. The more one progresses, the more strength and will power is required, as in climbing a mountain. However too the more openness and relaxation to contain that strength without causing damage is required, much as in residing deep within a valley of receptivity. Sometimes all together, sometimes each in their own time. I believe that the deeper we go, the more our psychology will influence our path as it becomes more subtle. If we are only able to summon the effort necessary to travel the path by thinking we are climbing a mountain, we also become more easily apt to fall off a cliff as the mountainous path becomes more treacherous. If you search for it with intention, you become attached to phenomenal appearances; if you guard it without intention, you become attached to emptiness. This why, while indeed I see there is a goal, I think a missing teaching is the importance of building harmony into one's foundation. This development of virtue is so important, because it is this that will bear the fruit that help to lift one up as one's path winds those precipices. Blessings to your way.

I like reading about stories of animals that achieve immortality. Some good destiny they have, perhaps, but although rare, it happens. Raise something up and it needs defending. Go ahead and defend it. There will always be those able to find a natural way.

If you've read my posts, then you know I take the idea of investigating principle seriously, and have referenced this quote of Liu Yiming's (from Fabrizio Pregadio's Cultivating the Dao) on multiple occassions: However, let us not forget our audience, and the time we are speaking of here. Liu Yiming's audience is those who are seeking to follow the steps of neidan to find the dao. Too, he speaks from a time when there were not clear-cut ways and scientific thinking. Yes, I investigate principle. Too I found that this took me further from the path, as over use of the mind - which is common in our era - has negative side effects which are not often covered as admonitions. Let us remember that: Always without desire we must be found, If its deep mystery we would sound; But if desire always within us be, Its outer fringe is all that we shall see. Too let us not mistake a strongly centered intention with desire. I have found that the more I think I know and understand the tapestry, the more difficult it becomes for me to be open and empty, something many prospective students - especially those reading these forums - are likely to struggle with. On these forums we have a list of Liu Yiming's admonitions, which include the necessity of being able to tolerate and accept anything, avoiding doing things to others for personal gain, getting lost in books, and so on. He also admonishes those who confuse and mislead others - which perhaps you think this is what I do. I simply see that many of the words used here are presented in a way that creates karmic conflicts, disrupts harmony, leads away from emptiness (the true emptiness which is not empty), and leads away from unity. To me these things touch upon the core of the art, and indeed are listed as Liu Yiming's first step, developing virtue in one's conduct. Alone with ones student(s) there is a different type of etiquette than when one is on stage in front of an audience in a grand ballroom. In this latter case, in front of so many people the etiquette requires more refinement, for it is much easier to stimulate feelings of awkwardness in one's large audience. This feeling of awkwardness is a sowing of karma. It causes others to become closed to not only you the speaker, but to the dao. When people are closed off, and we attempt to correct them, because they are closed they often end up becoming more defensive, more closed off, and polarized against us. Thus if we wish to plant seeds of change in someone, it is best to encourage them to be open, by harmonizing with their perspective, adapting to match their stance. It is when the reasons for holding themselves closed begin to melt away that people become open. When people are open there is flow, harmony, and two things are able to come into resonance with each other and exchange ideas and information. I hear that my words do contain advocation of right and wrong. We are often told it is the journey that matters, not the destination. What I hope would be seen is more about how I present my argument, than what my argument is. I try to use different tacts in order to feel out my audience and come to better harmonize with them. I admit I am not very adept at this, and some of my earlier posts in this thread were more reactionary. And even then I did my best to present quotes to an audience that clearly values quotes. I have been adapting my perspective to include quotes from neidan masters rather than LaoZi and Zhuangzi which I started with. I have posed my stance from the framework of questions. All of it is intended to create more of an open environment from which we may work in more productively together. Here perhaps the what merges with the how. Liu Yiming himself could be said to have received the transmission due to his discovery that being open is what invites the energy - but this is my perspective. Please feel free to have another! Qi asked: where do you think you are going? Liu Yiming replied: to the riverbank. Qi asked: to the riverbank to do what? Liu Yiming replied: to the riverbank to fish. Qi countered: the fish is in the water deep down, what to do? Liu Yiming replied: first entice it with the bait, then angle it with the hook, how could it not be caught? From this, Qi saw that Liu Yiming understood it, and on the same night transmitted him all about methods of cinnabar and phases of fire in detail; encouraging him, said: this work requires 20 years of utmost gongfu (effort), and then you will see the effect. Now, you strive with all your force, don’t be lazy, as to me, I will go into hiding.

In zhong lu chuan dao ji (tl Eva Wong), carrying on from the perspective of refining the body - just one perspective of the tapestry - we hear something like this: This resonates with much of what is explored in Journey to the West, a book Liu Yiming holds as sacred and revealing of the celestial mechanism. An interesting distinction is made here between leaving the shell of the body behind to return to the ten continents, or not and living as long as heaven and earth. Another interesting parallel is that the Monkey King chose to remain in the body, yet was also able to access the ten continents. He was something of an anomaly, and needed a little ego refining, but from a different perspective, this brings to mind the bodhisattva vow. I do not know the answers, but a part of me envisions the possibility of bringing these realms back into closer proximity to each other, along with bringing all of the universe closer together into a dance of harmony that ultimately and completely returns the all of it to the dao that currently exists even beyond the reach of the ten continents. I have heard that these realms used to be closer within reach of us, whereby humans would stumble into it naturally from time to time. I can only imagine it is the lack of guarding unity as a whole by our species that has pushed it far away, along with pushing the universe further apart. The power of immortals who are able to access all realms seems key to holding it all together. If we are going to speak of goals, this a (perhaps naive) dream of mine. I have not finished reading Journey to the West however, so perhaps something in there will refine or change my perspective and this goal. I do not mean offense to any within the ten continents, I simply seek to nurture unity.

Opendao, I appreciate your thoughtful reply, and I welcome all of your little cute jabs at what I know or do not know, what I imply or do not imply. Thank you. My post is largely intended as an invitation to extend the workings of the principles of your map, whatever it may be, into all things, and let your ego disappear. See what happens. I hope and intend to do the same, though I am sure you must be further along than I. Does the practice end with where the map ends? Does the map show all that is possible? Precisely because you are the holder of such a sacred lineage, I am sure you have such incredible potential to work indescribable wizardries that extend far beyond trying to debate rights and wrongs. If you cling to the map, you are limited by the map. The dao exists ever between the lines, making the map full of infinite possibility. Blessings.

I like to avoid refined sugars and processed foods. Next I like to avoid eating too much or too little, which will depend on my practice. If my practice is very water based, I may find I need to eat very little, and if it is fire based, I may need to eat more. Next is to be aware of how I am metabolizing the energies from those foods. They each have a different type of energy, which will influence my own energy (you are what you eat). Since my goal is to cultivate a clean, pure qi that doesn't take extra cultivation work to deal with, I am trying to develop an awareness of how different foods lead to and away from this.

I've had some recent experiences with pain caused by stiffness and working to correct bad posture. Someone made an anology that trying to get perfect posture may also be like trying to stretch a dried rubber band. It can cause cracking and damage the rubber band's elasticity. Some principles I've been following to help me adjust into a better posture increasingly as my body is able: Center myself in my heart / middle dan tien - an area I have allowed to close somewhat. This then opens my chest. Now I need to be mindful of allowing my shoulders to drop and also keep the area between them open. Also when my chest opens in the front, my sacrum begins to drop in the back a little, allowing me to relax down my spine to a greater degree, especially when I then focus on opening my hips and bending my knees slightly. Also when my chest opens, I notice stiffness begin in my upper neck, as my head is no longer balanced on my spine, so I lean my head forward a little more and focus on pulling back and up at CV 23, which, with my jaw lightly closed allows me to remain away of a good point of balance and helps to open the upper neck. I've been getting good results following these principles, but you may need other adjustments based on your own posture. It is important to stop and make adjustments as soon as you notice the stiffness. Stiffness, for me at least, tends to be caused by overthinking (spleen imbalance), so it is important to be aware of how empty your mind is. Starting with opening my chest has alow allowed my mind to drop more into my heart where it is able to find contentment and peace in stillness.

First step from which teaching? If we are going to compare maps, can we agree there are different routes that come from different places? I've heard you criticize the secret of the golden flower method, and admit that you do not understand what it does. Does avoiding side paths really mean there is only one map one can use to walk the main path? The xingming guizhi says: For in regard to the Three Passes: those who from doing enter non-doing [practice] the gradual method; those who cultivate the Upper Pass concurrently with the lower two passes [practice] the sudden method. As for those who directly refine the spirit and return to the Void, at the critical moment when the Work arrives at the Void, the extremity of quiescence, essence transforms into qi of itself, qi transforms into spirit of itself, meaning Gatemaster Yin’s principles on forgetting essence and spirit and transcending life. Do you understand each of these ways and their steps? BTW, did you hear Wu Ming Jing say there is no goal? Are we not allowed to steep ourselves in unity without fretting about goals or no goals? From Foundations of Internal Alchemy, Wang Mu, tl Fabrizio Pregadio: An anonymous master said: In the expression One Opening of the Mysterious Barrier, what is important is the word "One." Guarding the Center and Embracing Unity means guarding the One Opening. In all the ten thousand scrolls of the writings on the Elixir, nothing is more important than guarding Unity. When you are able to comprehend Unity, all pursuits are concluded. Therefore the word "One" refers to what one concentrates on and to what one guards in a state of quiescence. Do you believe that comprehending unity has no relation to being unified and harmonious within all things? I do not proclaim to know the answers, I simply ask questions of one who does proclaim to know. Do you now the secret meanings of dao de jing chapter 24 (tl Lui Ming): What is strenuous cannot be sustained. Self-confidence dulls the mind. Self-justification discredits the speaker. Self-assertion squanders resources. Bragging achieves nothing. Such qi-squandering conduct reminds Adepts To shun the superfluous and redundant. Do you take these as admonitions, or statements of truth? It's noon so I have a lot of questions. I don't need answers. :wub:

Nor do I wish to betray my role here and let the site continue to decay. But I cannot deny there is a connection between when I began posting here and struggles in my cultivation. I came for assistance in investigating principle, and much of the stagnation I feel is due to overuse of my mind and trouble letting go. Yet too I can be very sensitive, and have a proclivity to holding things that are not mine and allowing things to weigh me down. Now I am seeking to refine away this stiffness once and for all time, and I see it mirrored in the stagnation present here and in other realms I participate in. Perhaps some would invite an end to a public forum where people may do what may be perceived as slandering the dao, and yet would not another arise to take its place? Before that, would not another come to take my place in this role? In following the example of nature, we can see that refinement and delicate harmonies in nature come over long periods of time during which there may be conflict. But too we see this conflict lessen more and more, until the conflict itself takes on the role of preserving harmony by weeding out the sick and unhealthy through the role of predators. Perhaps some consider their actions as a predator here, and yet they are unable to fulfill this role either. And so I hope we too may come to greater refinement in our harmonization with each other, presenting the truth we believe in, though each of those truths may be somewhat unique, without needing to create conflict with each other. Nurturing what we have here and now is a quicker way to harmony than killing it off and starting over. Lao Zi says to know the white, yet keep to the black. This has many layers of meaning. Among them, white is associated with the phase of metal, which is very much related to the poignant essence which may be refined into the perfect treasure of heaven, but can also become weighed down fixed and stagnant. Knowledge is very much like this - it contains much poignancy, and yet too can be somewhat inflexible. Meanwhile the black can be associated with the phase of water, which is a deep and subtle phase, existing beneath the surface of things, laden with subtleties. This is very much the home of the mystery which cannot be grasped but from a desireless state. When we know the white, yet keep to the black, in dealings with others, one meaning is for us to know the truth, yet walk in subtlety. In leading others to the dao, especially when those others are not destined indoor students of our particular school, we lead others to emptiness, dissolving the conflict and edges of their desires. The truth is present there, raw and poignant, and yet it does not force itself upon another, remaining hidden just beneath the surface where any who are ready to find it may look. In this way it does not create conflict, for just like the dao, it does not compete. Whatever the case, I will simply follow the path that unfolds from my sincere intent for healing.

Hmmm, if the Student in the novel has not learned his lessons, and exercises violence rather than harmony, how does that counter the perspective that he has yet much to learn about harmony, and will not be able to force his way into dao? Why do I interject myself into these discussions? Because I happen to discover myself here and I simply respond from my heart. I believe that we may encounter many types of energies, and may respond to them with truth as you wish, without needing to cut like a sword. That said, my participation has been less frequent than it once was. Yes, a master may choose to respond to their students in many ways, including ones that cut. We are dealing with a one-on-one, or one-on-few relationship here. There many be many avenues for violence to lead to harmony in this environment. In this public forum where we are here, the conflict we nurture with the individuals whom might not share are perspectives and openly invite conflict with us is shared among the many beings who witness the exchange. The conflict becomes widespread. Again and again harsh words are used to deal with people who do not understand, and again and again this is repeated. Do you think to send the non-believers away, or to change their minds with your sharpness? I do not see this happening. Yet again and again conflict is created, which again and again is witnessed, and has now regularly called these witnesses to ask why are you repeatedly nurturing conflict in this public place? Laozi and Zhuangzi share many types of things, but I do not see them admonishing negativity and creating divisions of good and bad. They say here is how people behave, and here is how sages behave. There, is the nature of human dynamics when people are fueled by ambition and greed and come to fight with one another, and here, is the potential for people to become real humans. Perhaps you are right, and I need to let things go and take no part in these discussions, as the teachings I have shared are not listened to - why should I continue to press them? And yet too, my destiny has led me to take the role in upgrading this site, something that needs to happen before the year is done, or I fear the decaying of the code's integrity will lead to the irreplaceable loss of the data we have stored here. Now I ponder, if I give these forums renewed integrity, will they continue to be used to spread conflict by those who name themselves an authority of the dao? Perhaps instead I should simply leave them be, where they will go down a few times a week for multiple hours until they are no more. The previous owner of the five arts forums, which contained vast and extensive posts on the celestial mechanism, took the dangers of sharing the celestial mechanism with the wrong people very seriously. They would require 100's of posts to even read certain posts, to ensure that the information was no available to just anyone. Three years ago the owner closed them down for good, and much was lost. There have been efforts to create a new home for them, but it is not the same. Here too, I believe we dance about the secrets of the celestial mechanism, and while I feel much of it has the potential to be very healing for others, over time we seem to have more and more influence from those who believe there is only one way, and that all other ways are incorrect and should be cut with the sword. They do not seem to the three treasures of Lao Zi: frugality, compassion, and not daring to be ahead of anything else under heaven. I am sincerely uncertain whether or not it is right for my path to contribute further to the preservation of this dynamic. Yes, as you say, perhaps I should just leave things be.

A great country is like the lowland toward which all streams flow. It is the Reservoir of all under heaven, the Feminine of the world. The Feminine always conquers the Masculine by her quietness, by lowering herself through her quietness. Hence, if a great country can lower itself before a small country, it will win over the small country; and if a small country can lower itself before a great country, it will win over the great country. The one wins by stooping; the other, by remaining low. What a great country wants is simply to embrace more people; and what a small country wants is simply to come to serve its patron. Thus, each gets what it wants. But it behooves a great country to lower itself. Dao De Jing 61, Lao Zi, tl John C. H. Wu Is this not simply following the principle of allowing the hot and the cold to mix most efficently, without getting in the way? In mixing with the western world and with information technology, the words of dao merge with a vast realm wherein many potential students exist. Is this not a good thing? All streams flow to the sea because it is lower than they are. Humility gives it its power. If you want to govern the people, you must place yourself below them. If you want to lead the people, you must learn how to follow them. The Master is above the people, and no one feels oppressed. She goes ahead of the people, and no one feels manipulated. The whole world is grateful to her. Because she competes with no one, no one can compete with her. Dao De Jing 66, Lao Zi, tl Stephen Mitchell Why should Neidan fear losing its primal truths? Pass along the invitations into greater depths, be humble rather than controlling, and the merging of neidan with the world will become more efficient, more rapid, more complete, and it will be done by means of harmony. Almost all of my words are presented as coming from the mouths of other people, and of those the better part are further presented as citations from weighty ancient authorities. But all such words are actually spillover-goblet words, giving forth [new meanings] constantly, harmonizing them all through their Heavenly Transitions. The nine-tenths or so attributed to others discuss a topic by borrowing an outside viewpoint. A father does not serve as matchmaker for his own son, for the praises of the father are no equal to those from the mouth of another - and the blame too then goes not to me, but to someone else! [in any case], those who agree will be responsive, while those who do not will object. For people call right whatever agrees with them and call wrong whatever differs from them. The seven-tenths or so that are presented as citations from weighty ancient authorities are meant to defuse garrulous faultfinding, eliciting agreement with the words of these "venerable elders" instead. [but in fact], some of those who come before us in years, if they have not gone through the warp and the woof of things, from the root to the tip, in a way befitting their age, do not have any real priority over us. A man [of advanced years] with nothing to give him priority over others has not fulfilled the course of a human being, and a human being devoid of the course of a human being should really just be called a stale, obsolete oldster. These spillover-goblet words give forth [new meanings] constantly, so that all are harmonized through their Heavenly Transitions. They extend on and on without break and thus can remain in force to the end of one's years. When nothing is said, everything is equal. But words and this original equality are then not equal to each other. Thus it is that I speak only nonspeech. When you speak nonspeech, you can talk all your life without ever having said a word, or never utter a sound without ever failing to say something. There is some place from which each saying is acceptable, and some place from which it is unacceptable. There is some place from which it is so, and some place from which it is not so. Whence so? From being affirmed so. Whence not so? From being denied to be so. Whence acceptable? From someone accepting it. Whence unacceptable? From someone not accepting it. There is necessarily some perspective from which each thing is right and acceptable. Thus, all things are right; all things are acceptable. So what words other than spillover-goblet words, harmonizing through their Heavenly Transitions, could remain in force for very long? All beings are seeds of one another, yielding back and forth their different forms, beginning and ending like a circle, so that no fixed groupings apply. This is called Heaven the Potter's Wheel. It is Heaven the Potters Wheel that we see in their Heavenly Transitions. Zhuangzi tl Brook Ziporyn If the schools of Neidan must exercise forcefulness and cultivate disharmony to protect themselves, does this mean they have abandoned the teachings of Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi?

Words and concepts are needed to know right and wrong. Otherwise we naturally follow the way. Deciding which way is up to each of us. Some may use words and concepts, others may follow other means. When I pour some hot water into a bowl of cold water, they churn and mix naturally. Some molecules flow some way, some flow another way. Is it necessary for someone to put up a checkpoint, establish routes and scriptures and tell each molecule precisely how it needs to proceed? No, that would only stagnate the natural flow. The dao does not interfere. Those of us who return to the dao in this lifetime do so naturally and by destiny, flowing in our right time and right place for us. These human concepts have indeed put up checkpoints, established routes and rules about what is right and wrong, and these things have indeed brought stagnation to the natural flow. But this too is part of the natural flow. Scriptures are passed down to point the way, but let us not forget that the dao that can be spoken of is not the true dao. Confucius left us a famous quote about being a teacher: I do not open up the truth to one who is not eager to get knowledge, nor help out any one who is not anxious to explain himself. When I have presented one corner of a subject to any one, and he cannot from it learn the other three, I do not repeat my lesson. He shows them part of the way and will not take them deeper unless they are able to first proceed deeper on their own. If they do not go deeper, he does not repeat the lesson. There is no telling them "your wrong" again and again - that is for them to discover on their own. Discovering that one is wrong on one's own means taking one's own responsibility for following one's destiny - discovering one's natural harmonious path just like that molecule of water. There is a fine line between inviting one to see deeper according to a particular perspective and telling one how one is wrong. The invitation does not prevent the student from finding their way out the door if they do not feel this perspective is a good fit for them, and should they chose to leave, the invitation does not leave them feeling riddled with restrictions about right and wrong they need to dissolve. In Chronicles of Tao, the Student's Master invites him to discover his destiny, and makes clear it is only he who should discover his destiny. The Master says he will be unable to return to dao until this happens. At one point the Student meditates for months and months and gets to the point where he leaves his body and follows his way to dao, yet is brought back into his body as his neighbor's stereo blasts loudly at just the right time. A Shaman I once worked with too impressed upon us the importance of working out our destiny, telling us that before each of us reincarnated, we whole heartedly knew and understood what it was we were tasked with to accomplish in our new life and were eager to do so. Just like the water molecules of different temperatures, we too are eager to flow toward greater equilibrium. Some will resonate with neidan scriptures, some with other scriptures. Some will only dart across the surface, others will find their way more deeply within. Whichever the case, I believe it important that we do not leave them with scars. Let us not forget that many concepts of the East are now flowing into the west and being assimilated, almost exactly like those hot and cold waters being mixed together. Please, PLEASE do not assume those waters must reach perfect equilibrium according to the timing that you think is best. Why ever would there not be many diverse pockets of different temperatures as they merge and dance and flow towards that desired state? There is no line between fake apples and real apples. They are all a little of both. As soon as a single word is uttered the dao is no longer pure. Please here, of all places, let us place invitations to that clarity that is the equilibrium of truth we seek. Please do not mind when others are still mixing and merging - they have not arrived yet, and perhaps you will not live to see them do so, and that is OK. They are still different shades of hot and cold, and this is reflected in the beliefs and paths they take as right for them. In harmony we coexist and invite those who are ready. The immortal points the way. Even the potency of the true neidan scriptures can cause harm simply by existing, precisely because people so easily trip over them. Let us not help them trip harder by assuming this is their way, but let us help soften the edges by creating a harmony that may ease the transition into equilibrium.

Welcome, Harmen. Very nice to see you here.

I don't know if I can do justice to your question. The sense I get is one of unifying polarity, returning yin and yang back within the paradox. There are many polarities... it seems as though that of life and death, and that of being and non-being, are polarities that may be navigated following words in the classics, though I am not enough to explain anything about what is there.

A lot of the above seems very logical to me. However this logic could easily be confused when we overlay the self-effacing nature of chinese culture. It seems that this self-effacing nature has roots in confucianism and daoism (dare not to be ahead of anything else under heaven), but that in modern times it has developed into a highly sophisticated political art. In martial arts, one who is lower can more easily upset the foundation and roots of the other, making them fall. In social arts, especially in a society sensitized to this, it seems that the same tactics can be used to upset the foundations of one's "face." Thus perhaps it hurts one's face to appear to be asking too much, and even when one isn't asking too much at all, it is very easy for someone to say they are and create drama that causes them to lose face. In my own school, we are very removed from these concepts, and yet I have learned much about true humility that does not care about the politics of face. A principle of daoist cosmology is that in the direction of creation, the true becomes hidden within the false. A block of wood becomes carved and painted, and who then can tell what it was made from? Students who do not have good experiences with their teachers are likely to talk about it a lot, and in outside circles rumors may spread about the teacher. The thing is... this type of face killing can only touch the painted carving, not the block of wood. If the teacher relies on advertising and reputation to gain students, they will be hurt by any who wish to damage their reputation. If they rely on destiny to find their students, and are sincere in their dao, the dao will bring them true students no matter what anyone does to their reputation. I've talked with some other martial artists in the area, and sometimes my teacher will come up. It is interesting to hear what they believe about my teacher - it is all based on what others say and has nothing to do with the truth. Over time I heard from my teacher that he simply doesn't care what other say about him - he pays it no mind and focuses on the art. This is a layer of obfuscation - one easily manipulated by anyone - that prevents people from knowing how to place value on something. And yet, from my very first day in class, I knew immediately that this was the right teacher for me. No words were needed. In the end we can only know ourselves from the inside out, and everything else from the outside in. The more time we spend studying things from the outside in, the more we lose our grasp on what is true and false based on it's own merit. True discernment of this merit comes from becoming more connected to our own center - our own uncarved block - which then comes into deeper resonance when we contact other things that have a deeper center. If we truly need a method to place value on things - it seems to me much more effective to do so from the inside, rather than from the outside.