11 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Corey Hess, who spent quite a few years at Sogen-ji, now teaches zhan zhuang online. From what I gather, it's mostly holding the tree. 

 

https://zenembodiment.com/about/
 

Ah, very interesting.  I have read a few of Corey's blog posts, in the past.

I notice he wrote:

 

The idea behind standing still in static positions, for instance with our arms holding an energetic ball around our chest or other positions, is that in order to be able to hold these positions for more than a few minutes, we have to completely relax.  So our body has to find harmony, and we need to use our bodies as a unit in order to be able to stand there.  Then we are holding our arms in place with our tanden (dantien) rather than the muscles in our arms and legs.

 

 

Posture by virtue of one-pointedness (not so much the tanden per se) is something I experience more readily in sitting, but I'm working on it when I walk around the block, these days.

He makes it sound like an everyday, relaxation kind-of-thing.  Which it is, and the emphasis on complete relaxation is a beautiful part of the Chinese martial arts, for sure--nevertheless, for me it's more about the free placement of attention by necessity experienced in the movement of breath: 
 

If you are going to fall, you know, from, for instance, from the tree to the ground, the moment you, you know, leave the branch you lose your function of the body. But if you don’t, you know, there is a pretty long time before you reach to the ground. And there may be some branch, you know. So you can catch the branch or you can do something. But because you lose function of your body, you know [laughs], before you reach to the ground, you may lose your conscious[ness].
 

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco; “fell” corrected to “fall”; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

Suzuki offered the analogy here in response to the travails of his students, who were experiencing pain in their legs sitting cross-legged on the floor.  In his analogy, he suggested the possibility of an escape from pain through a presence of mind with the function of the body.
 

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”...

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

 

On 2/11/2024 at 4:44 AM, Apech said:

 

"There is an Unborn, an Unoriginated, an Unmade, an Uncompounded; were there not, O mendicants, there would be no escape from the world of the born, the originated, the made, and the compounded."

 

Udana 8:3  Khuddaka Nikaya

 

 

 

According to the consensus of the schools, the Sutta Pitaka was arranged in five agamas, 'traditions' (the usual term, but the Sthaviravadins more often call them nikayas, 'collections').

... Ksudraka Agama (outside of the first four agamas there remained a number of texts regarded by all the schools as of inferior importance, either because they were compositions of followers of the Buddha and not the words of the Master himself, or because they were of doubtful authenticity... these were collected in this 'Minor Tradition').

("Indian Buddhism", A. K. Warder, 2nd ed. p 202)

 

Khuddaka Nikaya, Ksudraka Agama.

On Warder:

 

For a number of years, he was an active member of the Pali Text Society, which published his first book, Introduction to Pali, in 1963. He based this popular primer on extracts from the Dīgha Nikāya, and took the then revolutionary step of treating Pali as an independent language, not just a derivative of Sanskrit.
 

His began his academic career at the University of Edinburgh in 1955, but in 1963 moved to the University of Toronto. There, as Chairman of the Department of East Asian Studies, he built up a strong programme in Sanskrit and South Asian studies. He retired in 1990.

(WIkipedia)

 

 

Zen folks particularly like that quote about the unborn.  There are places in the first four agamas (nikayas) where the unborn is mentioned, but never quite in the same sweeping context as in that quote from the 5th.  

I actually take that as an example of the kind of incompleteness in Gautama's teaching that I applaud, that he mostly didn't go for the sweeping infinity as a completed entity, but only spoke of a contrast between the substantial and that which is empty of the substantial (as it were).

 

I do the standing posture that is part of the abbreviated Tai Chi form I learned.  That form is the first part of the longer form that was taught by Cheng Man Ch'ing.  I learned the abbreviated version from a student of a student of Cheng's, who taught it free in a local park every Saturday some years ago.  

 

I especially do it when I get up in the middle of the night, and don't feel fully awake.  The arms angle out from the body about 15-20 degrees, the feet are squared to one another.  That's an even-weighted posture, but I find that I begin to experience the left arm-right leg, right arm-left leg alternation of the Tai Chi form as I stand.  Sometimes it feels natural to let the arms rise and return, as in the initial part of the form.  I often wind up into the form, and sometimes the alternation continues arm to hip one side and then the other, whether I am moving or not.

Not the practice you're describing, I realize, but sometimes I will stand five or ten minutes.  Very helpful to me at 3am, especially because it loosens my knees, for instances where I go on to sit.  
 

On 1/15/2024 at 5:05 AM, Maddie said:

 

Like at the grocery store and stuff?
 

Sometimes I dance with a wider step, like I'm jumping between rocks in a riverbed--does that count?

On 12/13/2023 at 9:53 AM, Vajra Fist said:

 

Indeed, Harada Roshi introduced standing practice for Rinzai Zen monks at Sogen-ji.
 

Can you describe what the practice consisted of?--just curious.  Thanks, Vajra Fist!

On 1/18/2024 at 1:32 AM, Brad M said:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-92194-z  interesting article (which I just skimmed) about fascia to this point. 
 

 

 

This study (research by Indahl, A., et al.) established that the ligamento-muscular reflex existed between the sacroiliac joint and muscles that attach to the bones that make up the sacroiliac joint. (The study’s authors) suggested that the sacroiliac joint was a regulator of pelvic and paraspinal muscles and, thereby, influences posture and lumbar segmental stability.

(Serola Biomechanics website summary of Indahl, A., et al., Sacroiliac joint involvement in activation of the porcine spinal and gluteal musculature. Journal of Spinal Disorders, 1999. 12(4): p. 325-30; 
https://europepmc.org/article/med/10451049
https://www.serola.net/research-category/the-nutation-lesion-2/ligamento-muscular-reflex/)

 

That would say that ligaments have a role  in the activity of nearby muscle groups.  Cheng Man Ch'ing related three stages and nine levels in the development of ch'i, centered on the ligaments (I summarize the stages/levels down in the body of my post:   A Way of Living)

Gautama's analogy for the fourth concentration:
 

Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity… 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134)

 

Gautama also provided a second analogy for the fourth concentration, similar to the first but with cloth around the entire frame:
 

Just …as if a (person) were sitting so wrapt from head to foot in a clean white robe, that there were no spot in (their) entire frame not in contact with the clean white robe—just so… does (a person) sit there, so suffusing even his body with that sense of purification, of translucence, of heart, that there is no spot in his whole frame not suffused therewith. 

(DN I 76, Pali Text Society Vol I p 86)

 

I would say that's about an evenness in the stretch of ligaments throughout the body, that translates into a sensitivity of the dermatomes over the entire surface of the body. 

Physicians sometimes run a pin over a specific area on the surface of the skin, to determine whether or not nerve exits between specific vertebrae of the spine are impinged. 

Definition and charts of the dermatomes:

Dermatomes are areas of skin on your body that rely on specific nerve connections on your spine. In this way, dermatomes are much like a map. The nature of that connection means that dermatomes can help a healthcare provider detect and diagnose conditions or problems affecting your spine, spinal cord or spinal nerves.
 

(https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/body/24379-dermatomes)

 

 

 

That's not to say the fascial tissue doesn't have a critical role in the evenness of stretch in ligaments throughout the body.  Maybe as your article suggests, proprioception in the deep fascia tissue gets stimulated by the needles, and that proprioception informs the placement of attention, or more exactly the placement of attention through necessity experienced in the movement of breath.  The placement of attention through necessity, and a sense of gravity wherever attention is placed, initiate the activity that results in an even stretch of ligaments throughout the body.

 

 

6 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

What he presented is a good practice, just not a complete one.

 

Theravada practice doesn't contain something glaringly false though, just incomplete, and this is important to stress.

This is what amazes me in practices from the Pali Canon, the quality is overall rather high and the advice is overall good. It's just not universal/it's not the full picture.

 

 

 

To me, that's one of the strong points of Gautama's lectures, in the first four Nikayas:  they are incomplete.   That's one of the reasons I don't rely on the lectures of his disciples in those Nikayas--the disciples appear in some cases to offer completions, to some of the things Gautama left incomplete, and I don't find their completions sound.  Same for some of the lectures attributed to Gautama in the fifth Nikaya.

Around the start of the twentieth century, there was an effort to put all of mathematics on an axiomatic basis, similar to Euclid developing all of his geometry from five initial axioms.  Euclid succeeded, although he didn't realize that his fifth axiom wasn't really an axiom (through a given point, one and only one straight line parallel to a given line can be drawn--there are two other geometries that can be developed, one with no lines parallel to the given line, and one with an infinite number of lines parallel).

The effort to put all of mathematics on an axiomatic basis, starting with some basic axioms of logic, was abandoned after Godel presented his two incompleteness theorems in the early 1930's:
 

Gödel’s two incompleteness theorems are among the most important results in modern logic, and have deep implications for various issues. They concern the limits of provability in formal axiomatic theories. The first incompleteness theorem states that in any consistent formal system F within which a certain amount of arithmetic can be carried out, there are statements of the language of F which can neither be proved nor disproved in F. According to the second incompleteness theorem, such a formal system cannot prove that the system itself is consistent (assuming it is indeed consistent).

 

(https://plato.stanford.edu/Entries/goedel-incompleteness/)

 

 

I see the incompleteness in Gautama's teaching as a strength.  I know, snowymountains, you were talking about his acceptance of some of the models of reality of his day, but I just thought I'd mention that as far as his dharma teachings, the incompleteness can be considered a strength.  A system that is too complete, has inherent contradictions.

 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I still haven't found a good pizza recipe in there, but the search continues ;-)

 

*but seriously, one thing that the Pali Canon does not seem to mention that I think is VERY relevant is relaxation induced anxiety!
 

 

I’ve written about my approach:
 

I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought.  For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind.  I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep. 

 

 

What's not obvious, there, is that I am taking what I consider to be the actionable elements from Gautama's description of mindfulness (of the mindfulness that made up his way of living).

From mindfulness of the body:
 

(One) trains (oneself), thinking, 'I will breathe in tranquillising the activity of body.  (One) trains (oneself), thinking, 'I will breathe out tranquillising the activity of body.

 

(MN III 82-83, Pali Text Society Vol III p 124, tr I. B. Horner; parentheticals added)
 

 

From mindfulness of the feelings:

 

Calming down the mental factors I shall breathe in. Calming down the mental factors I shall breathe out.

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward)
 

 

No good explanation have I found of the mental factors in Gautama's lectures.  Buddhaghosa I think is way off track.  My experience is along these lines:

 

Seated meditation has been described as “straightening the chest and sitting precariously” (“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, by Cheng Man-Ch’ing, translated by Douglas Wile, pg 21.).

Precariousness in posture gives rise to anxiety, yet if calm prevails, precariousness can bring forward the senses behind the feeling of place in awareness.

 

 

The mental factors that I calm are the senses connected with the placement of attention by necessity in the movement of breath (equalibrioception, proprioception, graviception, and oculoception).

 

From mindfulness of mind:

 

Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out.

 

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward)

 

 

And from mindfulness of states of mind:

 

Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out.

 

(ibid)

 

 

The cessation that I contemplate is the cessation of "doing something" with regard to the movement of breath:

 

I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom.

 

 

5 hours ago, Apech said:

He worked with Samkhya 
 

You are basing that on the distinction between initial and further jhanas, or...?

  Quote

I started meditating to relax and I ended up sobbing with rage - am I stange?

He just couldn't stand to be strange, so he chose to be a tall glass of water instead.

Key point:

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)
 

 

"Meditating to relax" comes under the heading of "doing something", so you'd best cut that out.  You could end up beating the stuffing out of that cushion (and stuffing the bleating into that tissue, key of C).

Seriously, though:  sympathies!  I hope it was cathartic.

 

(or was the topic a quote from someone else, on another thread?--I missed where the topic came from)

 

 

3 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

See this is why to me this is so complicated. On one hand to me emotions totally seem related to clinging as in clinging to various Sankharas.

 

On the other hand I agree that not everything that the Buddha said is factually accurate and the reason this is relevant is that in the tradition he was basically made to seem like he knew everything. If he did not know as much as it is claimed he did in the Suttas then it makes one wonder what else might be wrong. 
 

Or as Arlo Guthrie sang, "if you didn't know about that one, well, then what else don't you know" (Presidential Rag).

There's at least one sermon where Gautama disparages women.  He claimed "stroking the sun and moon with the hand" as one of six miracles.

A. K. Warder says that the first schism came about because the various orders couldn't agree on one of six points.  They agreed on five out of six--for example, that Gautama's omniscience was limited to matters of the dharma, he was not omniscient about everything--that was one of the points of contention.

The point they couldn't agree on was whether or not an arhant could be seduced by a succubus in his sleep.  In other words, whether an enlightened man could have a wet dream.  

I sometimes ponder how that got worked around into how the "great path" was superior because the mahayanists were willing to suffer along with everyone else until everybody was enlightened.   You know, have wet dreams, and such.

And it's true, that in Gautama's teaching, only the arhants really cut off sensual desire and the other hindrances at the root.  Everybody else had to keep working at it, because the hindrances would continue to grow--no spiritual Round-up.

 

I personally owe Gautama an overwhelming debt, for his teachings about concentration and about his way of living, the mindfulness that constituted his way of living "most of the time, especially in the rainy season".  I don't really find the past lives/future lives and the social and moral prescriptions, the four elements and all, that useful.  The Bodhisattva vow is actually more useful to me, I'll have to give the Mahayanists credit on that.

Oh, and on that transmission of the teaching to Kasayapa, the story of Gautama holding up a flower and Kasayapa wordlessly receiving the teaching.  That story is cited to justify transmission outside of scripture in the Zen tradition.  Well, there was a mandarava flower given to Kasayapa by a wondering ascetic, who informed Kasayapa that Gautama had died (the mandarava trees had started blooming out of season).  Kasayapa proceeded to the town where Gautama lay on the funeral pyre, and I guess he must have collected Gautama's robe and bowl at that time.  That story is in the paranibbana sutta--wordless transmission, indeed!

 

 

19 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

What I said is that I'm not interested in copying my notes and citations again.

You can accept what I wrote about the Nimitta or not accept it, either way is fine 🙂.
 

 

You miss my point.  I believe that what you said, and if that's what your teacher said then what your teacher said, misrepresents the teaching in the first four Nikayas.  That is why I have asked you to defend what you said, from Gautama's sermons in the four Nikayas, not from Buddhaghosa.

 

Quote

The only way to understand the Pali Canon is by working with a teacher though.
 

Again, you misrepresent the teaching:

 

Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves. Be ye a refuge unto yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth. Look not for refuge to any one besides yourselves. And how… is (one) to be a lamp unto (oneself), a refuge unto (oneself), betaking (oneself) to no external refuge, holding fast to the Truth as a lamp, holding fast as a refuge to the Truth, looking not for refuge to any one besides (oneself)?

 

Herein, … (one) continues, as to the body, so to look upon the body that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. [And in the same way] as to feelings… moods… ideas, (one) continues so to look upon each that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world.

 

(Digha Nikaya ii 100, Pali Text Society DN Vol. II pg 108)

 

 

Quote

 

We're running in circles here though, so I'll have to respectfully decline for the final time 🙏
 

 

 

"Do now what it is time for you to do", as somebody once said.

 

 

10 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

As I said in my first response, I'm not interested in copying again my notes from my teacher and providing the citations.

 

If you want citations for definitions finding a teacher and asking them to provide citations is the way to go.

Otherwise you draw your own conclusions on the definitions and stay with these.

 

You're saying that I simply have to accept what you say, or what your teacher has said, end of subject. 

Aren't we on Dao Bums to debate, to question, to provide what experience and resources we have to one another?  

Sometimes we lean on an understanding, we lean on a path and a teacher, I get that.  Just seems odd, if that's the case, that you would be here at all.

As I said somewhere, ChiDragon, the real alchemy to me is in according with my own nature--that is true immortality to me, and it's immortality that is the object of the internal alchemy, is it not?
 

Gautama taught that zest ceases in the third concentration, while the feeling of ease continues:
 

(One) enters & remains in the third (state), of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, (one) has a pleasant abiding.’

 

(Samadhanga Sutta, tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, AN 5.28 PTS: A iii 25; Pali Text Society, see AN Book of Threes text I,164; Vol II p 147)

 

 

That’s a recommendation of the third concentration, especially for long periods. Nevertheless, I find that the stage of concentration that lends itself to practice in the moment is dependent on the tendency toward the free placement of attention. As I wrote in my last post:

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration.

 

Shunryu Suzuki said:

 

To enjoy our life– complicated life, difficult life– without ignoring it, and without being caught by it. Without suffer from it. That is actually what will happen to us after you practice zazen.

 

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco)

 

 

I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom.

("To Enjoy Our Life")

 

 

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

OR 

 

' Genetic memory'  ?

 

[  " Neuroscientific research on mice suggests that some experiences can influence subsequent generations. In a 2013 study,^[3][4] mice trained to fear a specific smell passed on their trained aversion to their descendants, which were then extremely sensitive and fearful of the same smell, even though they had never encountered it, nor been trained to fear it.

Changes in brain structure were also found. The researchers concluded that "the experiences of a parent, even before conceiving, markedly influence both structure and function in the nervous system of subsequent generations".^[5]

Scientists speculate that similar genetic mechanisms could be linked with phobias, anxiety, and post-traumatic stress disorders, as well as other neuropsychiatric disorders, in humans.^{[citation needed] "}

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_memory_(psychology)

 

 

Too bad, about that lack of citation.  I'm removing my "like", ha ha!

Then again, even if they had provided a citation:
 

Nature

12 December 2023

More than 10,000 research papers were retracted in 2023 — a new record

The number of articles being retracted rose sharply this year. Integrity experts say that this is only the tip of the iceberg.
 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-03974-8

21 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

The best way to understand the Pali is via a teacher, I don't intend to enter the process of citing the sources in the Pali, like I did for Anapanasati 🙂.

 

It's exactly the sort of discussion to find a teacher for and discuss with them.
 

Cite translations that accord with the Pali Text Society renditions, and we're good.
 

You are here on Dao Bums to better your own understanding, are you not?  

You can disregard the quote from Koun Franz in my last post, doesn't change the rest.  I only quoted him because I like his explanation of "one-pointedness", as the mind that moves away from the head.  I think it's easier to find the "one-pointed" mind in the moments  before falling asleep--I describe that in "Waking Up and Falling Sleep". 

 

Quote

snowymountains

Posted 21 hours ago

 

The Nimitta covering everything with a *momentary* stop of the breath is 1st Jhana.

The simplest way to see that it is not the 4th Jhana this can happen via metta or mudita or karuna while neither of these 3 can offer access to the 4th jhana.
 

Can you quote passages in the first four Nikayas, as sources for these statements?  Or, are they your experience, or your teacher's experience?

So far as I know, the concentrations that involve the extension of metta, mudita, and karuna are the further concentrations, and although Gautama doesn't explicitly say that the fourth concentration is a prerequisite to the further concentrations, he usually lists them after the fourth concentration.  About those extensions, I have written:

 

The first of the further states was “the infinity of ether”. Gautama identified the state with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of compassion”. He described a particular method for the extension of the mind of compassion, a method that began with the extension of “the mind of friendliness”:
 

[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence.

(MN I 38, Pali Text Society volume I p 48)

 

The second of the further states (“the infinity of consciousness”) Gautama identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of sympathetic joy”, and the third (“the infinity of nothingness”) he identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of equanimity”.

(The Early Record)

I'm familiar with action of the body that depends on the extension of the mind of friendliness throughout the room and to the other side of the wall, but that's about it.

 

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

 

I'm not doing this again 🙂, it's just too time consuming, mixing zen sources with Theravada sources, discussing what each phrase in Pali means etc.

If you want to discuss definitions a teacher is the best way to do that.

 

The Nimitta covering everything with a *momentary* stop of the breath is 1st Jhana.

The simplest way to see that it is not the 4th Jhana this can happen via metta or mudita or karuna while neither of these 3 can offer access to the 4th jhana.

 

 

Gautama's experience of the stoppage of breath:

 

So I, Aggivessana, stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears.  When I, Aggivessana, had stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears, I came to have very bad headaches… very strong winds cut through my stomach… there came a fierce heat in my body.  Although, Aggivessana, unsluggish energy came to be stirred up in me, unmuddled mindfulness set up, yet my body was turbulent, not calmed, because I was harassed in striving by striving against that very pain.  But yet, Aggivesana, that painful feeling, arising in me, persisted without impinging on my mind…
 

(MN I 244-245, Pali Text Society vol I p 298-299)

I'm saying if you haven't experienced the fourth jhana, you don't have the "fifth limb" of concentration (the "survey-sign") at your disposal in the first concentration.

I see that you are trying to match up somebody's teachings with your experience.  Why not Gautama's?

 

 

On 2/2/2024 at 1:00 PM, snowymountains said:

 

Sounds like a Nimitta. Just return focus to the object of concentration ( eg breath ) when it appears.

 

If it ever covers all the visual field, you'll be at first Jhana, then concentrate on the Nimitta ( because the breath will momentary stop anyhow, the Nimitta is the only thing to concentrate on )
 

That moment when "the breath will momentarily stop"--that's the moment when necessity can place attention, such that the breath does not stop:

 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

So far as I know, the "survey-sign" follows the fourth concentration.  Certainly, Gautama referred to it as the "fifth limb" of concentration.

 

Again, the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. … just as someone might survey another, standing might survey another sitting, or sitting might survey another lying down; even so the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS pg 132-134)

I'm not saying that the "survey-sign" can't be invoked in the first concentration.  The fifteenth element of the mindfulness that Gautama described as his way of living was:
 

"Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out."

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward)

 

That cessation may or may not be "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" (or in plain English, "the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation")--the cessation which marks the fourth concentration.  Makes sense to me that Gautama would practice to the fourth concentration and the sign of the concentration, then utilize the sign of the concentration to experience the cessation of the fourth concentration as appropriate in daily living.

There's no concentration without one-pointedness:

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.  

(SN V 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added)

 

Here's Zen teacher Koun Franz's description of "one-pointedness of mind", although he doesn't identify it as such.  He, too, talks about broadening the visual field:
 

 

Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’.

 

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one. 

 

... I was taught we should be constantly aware of our eyes when we sit. Specifically, we should be aware of how we narrow and widen the aperture, how our field of vision gets narrower and narrower as our mind gets narrower and narrower. When you see that clearly, you also see how easily you can just open it up; the degree to which we open it up is the degree to which we’re here.

(No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site
https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/)

 

 

For me, the practice is more like:

 

“… (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.”
 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134)

 

Words like “steeps” and “drenches” convey a sense of gravity, while the phrase “not one particle of the body that is not pervaded” speaks to the “one-pointedness” of attention, even as the body is suffused.
 

If I can find a way to experience gravity in the placement of attention as the source of activity in my posture, and particular ligaments as the source of the reciprocity in that activity, then I have an ease.

("To Enjoy Our Life")

 

 

 

On 2/1/2024 at 6:32 AM, S:C said:

Why is there a connection to the ‘white rabbit’ song? 
 

 

 

“Oh, you can’t help that,” said the Cat: “we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.” “How do you know I’m mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn’t have come here.”
 

(Alice and The Cheshire Cat, from Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll)

 

14 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

That's not really an experiment though, maybe it convinced Monroe, but I wouldn't extrapolate too much from it.

 

In my experience it's an entirely psychological realm, it does look extremely vivid though, as vivid as reality, thus I can understand why the slightest coincidence could make someone believe it's somehow linked to reality.

 

The issue imo is when one starts spending "reality time" to explain this or that which happened in "astral time", and of course if someone really wants to see connections, then connections they will see.

 

There's certainly a lot of lore out there, and you're right to consider most of it a waste of time (IMHO).  I'm not ready to dismiss miracles altogether, though, and even if Olaf Blanke has demonstrated an ability to produce out-of-body sensations in test subjects by mechanical means, I'm not entirely sure that people haven't seen things that couldn't be seen from their physical location. 

I believe that it's possible for things outside the boundaries of the senses to effect the placement of my attention, and in some cases for activity to manifest from that location.
 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent.

 

(Dogen, "Genjo Koan", tr Tanahashi)

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Oppps !  Excuse me Mark !

 

i was just testing to see if I was in the real world or not .
 

Ow!--cut it out, Nungali, I know that's you! 

 

29 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

The thing is that the bruise could had been there for all sorts of reasons.

 

For one the realm is not this world, so I don't even see how this could happen.

 

For two, the realm is not real, it's a psychological realm.

 

I hadn't seen anything there pointing to it being real.

It's extremely vivid and can be confused for being a reality, especially given that a common starting place is a mirror copy of someone's home.

 

But this doesn't make it real, it's not like stranger things upside down where if your friends go there, you all meet and then back on earth you recall the same experience. It's a psychological realm.
 

Munroe would probably beg to differ with you, at least as far as the realm in which he pinched the person's buttocks.  That's exactly what he was trying to verify, was his dream-like experience of floating and traveling and being at someone's house an experience of the real world, or of something else?  He satisfied himself that it was this world, with that experiment.  

I think there are others that make the same claim, though I don't know that for sure.  I myself have never been tempted to experiment with "lucid dreaming", with trying to separate some aspect of myself from the physical body and travel around.

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

How can a person obtain the level required to cultivate properly? Isn't the idea was to practice from the beginning to get to the point where one wants to be, progressively?
 

 

 

Know your question was not directed to me, ChiDragon, but I can't resist.  I'm not saying that cultivation isn't important, but I am saying that no amount of cultivation amounts to the jumping off required to realize activity purely out of the placement of attention from moment to moment.

 

...The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”...

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Not to be rude but, which part of this is the alchemy of a practice?
 

Rude! 

I was riffing off the Google translation of Taoist Text's Chinese excerpt.  Was that excerpt not about alchemy?

What I outlined is just according with my own nature, which is really the immortality that the alchemy is all about, IMHO.

Here's Wikipedia on "The Golden Flower" (my emphasis):

 

The Secret of the Golden Flower (Chinese: 太乙金華宗旨; pinyin: Tàiyǐ Jīnhuá Zōngzhǐ) is a Chinese Taoist book on neidan (inner alchemy) meditation, which also mixes Buddhist teachings with some Confucian thoughts. It was written by means of the spirit-writing (fuji) technique, through two groups, in 1688 and 1692.

 

 

Here's a lovely illustration from "The Golden Flower"--now I would say this is an illustration of what I described as "finding ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine through relaxation, and calming the stretch of ligaments":

 

 

"We'll just lay there by the juniper,
while the moon is bright;
and watch them jugs a fillin',
in the pale moonlight."

 

 

On 8/17/2010 at 7:44 PM, time to change said:

can someone tell me a way to make me astral project
 

You might find "Far Journeys" by Robert Monroe interesting.

Monroe was an insurance salesman in New Jersey, who played around with self-hypnosis, and discovered he could go out of body.  He kept journals.  He reported experiences in three different planes, and in one of the experiences in this plane, he pinched somebody's bottom hundreds of miles from where  he was and verified afterwards that they had a bruise there for no apparent reason.

The most interesting thing about Monroe's experiences to me was how he got back into his body.  For awhile he had difficulty returning, but he discovered that all he had to do was to become aware of his breathing, and he would be drawn back into his body.

 

 

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

No, that's where the term O at the D comes from lol. D is McDonalds

 

 

It was "O at a D", if I recall, the O's at a distance.  Or was that a funny...