Mark Foote

On 7/13/2025 at 10:20 AM, Cobie said:

be free of it all

the body knows how to breath 

i just let it be. 

 

I just let it be

consciousness retained with place

place retained with mind

place retained with mind

free after all, with it all

going fishing, then

9 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

I don't think there is a strict division between "enlightened" and "not enlightened"--- it is on a spectrum.

 

One classic Advaitic definition is that realization starts with tattva jnana, or knowing reality, followed by manonasa, the destruction of the mind (in this case, the mind's thinkative and clinging nature) and a thinning of mental habits, vasana kshaya. This thinkative mind and mental habits is usually what we take to be "us," so the '"you" is in the way. The result is the natural cessation of fear, doubt, and suffering.

 

The usual indications are a lack of reactivity, spontaneity, an expansive view, etc. The mechanical habits of mind is very apparent in most of us, and the lack of it also seems apparent. 

 

"(the) thinkative mind and mental habits is usually what we take to be 'us'"...

It were better… if the untaught manyfolk approached this body, child of the four great elements, as the self rather than the mind. Why so? Seen is it… how this body, child of the four great elements, persists for a year, persists for two years, persists for three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty years, persists for forty, for fifty years, persists for a hundred years and even longer. But this… that we call thought, that we call mind, that we call consciousness, that arises as one thing, ceases as another, whether by night or by day.
 

(SN 12.61, tr. Pali Text Society vol II p 66)

Gautama spoke in many lectures about his enlightenment, which took place in or after the fourth or the final concentration, depending on the lecture, but was really a matter of "profound knowledge" or "intuitive wisdom" (MN 70) , a kind of gnosis that followed his witness of "past habitations" and "future arisings".

With his enlightenment, he said, the three cankers were no longer present in him, they were like palm trees that had been cut off at the root, never to grow again. The cankers:
 

The three “cankers” were said to be three cravings:  “craving for the life of sense”, “craving for becoming”, and “craving for not-becoming” (DN 22; PTS vol. ii p 340). When the cankers are “destroyed”, the roots of the craving for sense-pleasures, the roots of the craving “to continue, to survive, to be” (tr. “bhava”, Bhikkyu Sujato), and the roots of the craving not “to be” (the craving for the ignorance of being) are destroyed.

(One Way or Another)

Where the confusion comes in:

Gautama’s advice was to go by the words of the teacher rather than any claim to authority, to compare the instructions of a teacher to the sermons Gautama himself had given and to the rules of the order that Gautama himself had laid down (DN 16 PTS vol. ii pp 133-136).

Nevertheless, activity solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness, the hallmark of the fourth concentration, has been conveyed by demonstration in some branches of Buddhism for millennia. The transmission of a central part of the teaching through such conveyance, and the certification of that transmission by the presiding teacher, is regarded by some schools as the only guarantee of the authenticity of a teacher.

The teachers so authenticated have in many cases disappointed their students, when circumstances revealed that the teacher’s cankers had not been completely destroyed. Furthermore, some schools appear to have certified transmission without the conveyance that has kept the tradition alive, perhaps for the sake of the continuation of the school.

(ibid)

On 7/2/2025 at 12:17 AM, Thrice Daily said:

 

I can’t stop grinning 

Crystals sit in my pocket

kings deep in the whole wide world
 

"kings deep" is just a

tad over five syllables...

whole world, just one place

11 hours ago, Apech said:

To all American Bums.

 

🇬🇧💂💂🇬🇧
 

On 6/29/2025 at 11:18 PM, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Eckhart Tolle explains the difference as:  zoning out (falling asleep, drinking alcohol, watching TV) is "falling below thinking"; while alert  awareness, alert presence is "rising above thinking."

 

 

falling below thought
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9531996-so-does-tv-watching-create-inner-space-does-it-cause#:~:text=So when watching television%2C the,has a strong addictive quality.

 

My favorite quote, about thought:

As (one) abides in body contemplating body, either some bodily object arises, or bodily discomfort or drowsiness of mind scatters (one’s) thoughts abroad to externals. Thereupon… (one’s) attention should be directed to some pleasurable object of thought. As (one) thus directs it to some pleasurable object of thought, delight springs up in (one’s being). In (one), thus delighted, arises zest. Full of zest (one’s) body is calmed down. With body so calmed (one) experiences ease. The mind of one at ease is concentrated. (One) thus reflects: The aim on which I set my mind I have attained. Come, let me withdraw my mind [from pleasurable object of thought]. So (one) withdraws (one’s) mind therefrom, and neither starts nor carries on thought-process. Thus (one) is fully conscious: I am without thought initial or sustained. I am inwardly mindful. I am at ease.
 

(Gautama repeats the above for “As (one) contemplates feelings in feelings…”, “… mind in mind…”, “… mind-states in mind-states, either some mental object arises, or…”)
 

Such is the practice for the direction of mind.

And what… is the practice for the non-direction of mind?

(First,) by not directing (one’s) mind to externals, (one) is fully aware: My mind is not directed to externals. Then (one) is fully aware: My mind is not concentrated either on what is before or on what is behind, but it is set free, it is undirected. Then (one) is fully aware: In body contemplating body I abide, ardent, composed and mindful. I am at ease.

And (one) does the same with regard to feelings… to mind… and mind-states. Thus (one) is fully aware: In mind-states contemplating mind-states I abide, ardent, composed and mindful. I am at ease.

This is the practice for the non-direction of mind.

(SN 47.10, tr. Pali Text Society vol. V pp134-136)

5 hours ago, Lataif said:

Please:

 

(1) Both Yoga (with prana) and QiGong (with chi) have a practice of "breathing into the body".

 

(2) I discovered how to to do this without anyone instructing me how to do it.

 

(3) But I have difficulty describing how exactly I do it . . . or how someone else might do it.

 

(4) It's not (in my experience) only "intention" or "attention".  

 

(5) There seems to be some preliminary orientation of the mouth and throat involved.

 

(6) If you try, for example, to make a "hissing sound" with an open mouth (like a cat) . . . that seems to be close.

 

(7) You tighten the muscles in your mouth in some way (that I can't explain well) . . . and exhale . . . and it's at that point that the intention to direct the breath in a certain direction in the body becomes possible.

 

(8) Any ideas on this (?)

 

Thanks . . .
 

That's interesting. To what end, do you direct the breath?

 

23 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

if i said "no idea what Joy Division is"

would that be an unpopular opinion?
 

I know telling stories is pretty unpopular here on Dao Bums, so here goes...

Back when I lived above Hamburger Mary's in San Francisco, I met the former drummer of the Avengers, one of the first San Francisco punk bands.

Dan turned me on to a bootleg tape of Joy Division, or what he said was a bootleg tape, then he borrowed some money. Poor Dan, got hit by an MG he didn't see when he stepped out between two parked cars in the Panhandle, he was still walking with a cane years later. 

The lead singer of Joy Division hung himself, very dramatically. The rest of the band went on to form New Order, and unlike Joy Division, New Order was a success.

Let's see if I can find a Joy Division video that will embed, for you. Here's one:

 

7 hours ago, stirling said:

Quote

 

Quote

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Kazuaki Tanahashi)

 

 

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

This is too complicated, IMHO. It's all really simple. No places, relationships, activities, or placement. This moment just is, and there is a simple awareness of that which belongs to no-one and no-thing - pervades the field of phenomena. Arriving at this simple understanding is hard for us humans, especially those of us with the burden of education. It took me years to realized what a handicap it was for me.
 

Is Dogen saying something there, when he says "find your place where you are", when he says "practice occurs", and when he says "actualizing the fundamental point"?

 

Quote

 

Practice is just being, without contrived concepts about how to go about it. You can find practices with massive to-do lists, but they all eventually point to this simple being. The Zen you got mixed up in so long ago is all about this simple "being" right from the start... the Theravada that interests you much less so, though they point at the same understanding.
 

What's the difference between "just sitting" on the couch watching the Simpsons, and the "just sitting" that is shikantaza? 
 

The Theravada doesn't interest me. The first four Nikayas of the Pali Canon interest me, as do the writings of Yuanwu and Dogen.

On 6/26/2025 at 9:07 PM, Mark Foote said:

 

 

Ah, Joy Division, RIP!

 

 

If I said Joy Division was a great band, would that be an unpopular opinion?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8lgsVXiXZg&list=RDg8lgsVXiXZg&start_radio=1#t=20s

The link could not be embedded because www.youtube.com does not allow embedding of that video.

Ok, I know the lead singer of New Order was not a member of Joy Division. Still, if I said New Order was a great band, I fear that would not be an unpopular opinion.

2 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

reverse breating, golden

living men sit, don't lie down
dead men lie, don't sit

 

dead men lie, don't sit

have a cup of tea; living...

have a cup of tea

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Meld into more shapes

Everything is emptiness

reverse breathing, golden
 

reverse breating, golden

living men sit, don't lie down
dead men lie, don't sit

(Dead Man's Zazen

生夾坐不臥 While living, one sits up and lies not,

死去臥不坐 When dead, one lies and sits not;

元是臭骨頭 A set of ill-smelling skeleton!

何爲立功課 What is the use of toiling and moiling so?

A gâthâ by Hui-neng, T'an-ching)

8 hours ago, stirling said:

it’s an excellent question to examine carefully. It is in fact everywhere in the field experience, and nowhere at all. You aren’t really doing Shikantaza until this is something that you can see properly. This is why Shikantaza is not different from enlightened mind. Everything is Mind. You are liberating all phenomena in the moment that labeling them stops.
 

“... as an emerald jewel, of all good qualities, might be strung on a thread, blue-green or yellow or red or white or orange coloured; and a [person] with vision, having put it in [their] hand, might reflect; ‘this emerald jewel... is strung on a thread, blue-green... or orange-coloured’–even so... a course has been pointed out by me for disciples, practising which disciples of mine know thus: This body of mine... is of a nature to be constantly rubbed away... and scattered, but this consciousness is fastened there, bound there....”

(MN 77, tr. Pali Text Society Vol II p 217; see also AN Pali Text Society vol IV pp 202-203)

From something on my site:

On a forum site I frequent, someone wrote:

Even if you have no identity, you still exist. As what? The spirituality that I follow would say “as existence”, or “as pure consciousness”.

I was reminded of Nisargadatta, a famous teacher who lived in India in the last century:

You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.

(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers)

“The consciousness should give attention to itself”—in thirteenth-century Japan, Eihei Dogen wrote:

Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.

(“Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version; tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176)

That’s a poetic way to say “the consciousness should give attention to itself”.

I used to talk about the location of consciousness, but a friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location. As a result, I switched to writing about the placement of attention:

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

(Response to “Not the Wind, Not the Flag”)
 

In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote:

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Kazuaki Tanahashi)

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

("Take the Backward Step")

"A friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location"--that's another friend of mine, Stirling, not you!--your point of view on the nature of consciousness is widely shared, I know.  As far as realizing the cessation of volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, and so "just sitting", I"m not sure how that point of view enters into practice.

13 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

i've only listened to the first song so far, it is beautiful.

i look forward to hearing the rest.  

Volume is fine when i play it, no adjustment needed.

 

i like the different art for each song also. very nice.

Adding it to my play list.

 

 

Now I've listened to the first four songs.  So far my favorite tracks are #1 and #4.

What a great collection this is.  I upvoted on you tube.

 

Thanks, BigSkyDiamond!

I'll hope that when you get to it, you like the rest of songs as well. 

 

Returning to the OP:

I made a recording of myself and some friends back in 1969, doing some traditional songs, some originals, and some covers (the covers are me covering John Fahey tunes). Dug it out for a friend a couple months back, and this week decided to make a YouTube video out of it.

Have to turn it down right away, maybe I could have done better on the volume...
 

On 6/23/2025 at 4:14 PM, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

when you are sitting (or walking or supine or standing or doing qi gong), however it is you meditate or tune into your awareness.....where is your point of awareness and do you move it around.  where is your "consciousness fastened there, bound there".  I know during qi gong i move my point of awareness to different places: to the diaphragm for deep breathing and expansion; or to the upper dantien turning it, or to the coccyx pointing down drawing a circle on the ground, for example.
 

Where is your point of awareness when you make no effort to place it, that's the question:

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970 [edited by Bill Redican])

Quote

 

no my point of awareness does not sit or stand or recline or walk.       

 

"I'm not afraid that my point of awarensess is going to sit or stand or recline or walk."

 

You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around.

(Kobun Chino Otogawa, my recollection of a lecture at S. F. Zen Center in the 1980’s)

Quote

 

My point of consciousness is just a point.  It is viewing my body walking, and the trees and the sidewalk and the ponds and the turtle and the ducks.  I do that exercise either at home just going about my daily activities, or when i am out walking.  Yes there is ease of movement and ease of breath.  It takes some getting used to, to hold both perspectives at the same time, the perspective of me taking a walk or fixing supper; and the "birds eye" perspective i view from my point of awareness up in the corner of the clear cube watching the scene.  I find it very restful being a point.  It feels very pleasant and natural.
 

A key aspect of the bodily self is self-location, the experience that the self is localized at a specific position in space within one’s bodily borders (embodied self-location).

(Journal of Neuroscience 26 May 2010, 30 (21) 7202-7214)
 

Where is the embodied point of consciousness, at this moment? The point of consciousness that is tied to the body, that takes place in the body, that can be now here and now there (or not), that moves (or not). A lot of my practice is to relax, stay calm, let thought play appropriately, and look to the embodied point of consciousness for automatic activity in the body.

From the piece I'm working on now (subject to change!):

When habit and volition fall away, the feeling of ease ceases, and the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation becomes solely by virtue of the location of consciousness. At such time, Gautama declared that one should:

… (suffuse one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. 

(AN 5.28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 19.)
 

Thus, the body is kept open to a point-wise “embodied self-location” of consciousness.

The penultimate element of the mindfulness that made up Gautama’s way of living was:
 

I will breathe in… breathe out… beholding stopping.

(MN 118, tr. Pali Text Society vol. III p 126)
 

“Beholding stopping” is beholding the cessation of habit and volition in activity. To “breathe in… breathe out… beholding stopping” implies a cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation. As Yuanwu wrote:

“… this will be the place of peace and bliss where you stop and rest… ”

That’s not to say that arriving at rest from volition necessarily comes easily:

Suppose that you have climbed to the top of a hundred-foot pole, and are told to let go and advance one step further without holding bodily life dear. In such a situation, if you say that you can practice the Buddha-Way only when you are alive, you are not really following your teacher. Consider this carefully.

(“Shobogenzo-zuimonki: Sayings of Eihei Dogen Zenji, recorded by Koun Ejo”, 1-13, tr Shohaku Okumura, Soto-Shu Shumucho p 45-46)
 

You must strive with all your might to bite through here and cut off conditioned habits of mind. Be like a person who has died the great death: after your breath is cut off, then you come back to life. Only then do you realize that it is as open as empty space. Only then do you reach the point where your feet are walking on the ground of reality.

(Zen Letters, translated by J.C. and Thomas Cleary, p 84)
 

I personally find Gautama instructions helpful--I discuss 'em in Applying the Pali Instructions. 

Quote

 

this is great Mark, thank you for the thoughtful and detailed response.  I don't do seated meditation, in part because i just feel too antsy to sit still (but have no problem with seated qi gong, fine with that).  And in part because it is just uncomfortable.  And in part because  i want whatever path or practice i have to be part of my regular daily life and activities and not "separate" to seated meditation.   Not doing "just" seated meditation could also be my rebellion from sitting at a desk job and having that association.  

 

You may find my description of kinesiology in The Diamond Trap, the Thicket of Thorns useful. Without that, I could not get to the top of the pole, much less advance one step further.

About sitting:

Gautama began his instructions on mindfulness with advice on the appropriate setting, and on the posture to adopt:
 

Herein… (one) who is forest-gone or gone to the root of a tree or gone to an empty place, sits down cross-legged, holding (their) back erect, arousing mindfulness…

(MN 119, tr. Pali Text Society vol. III pp 130-132)

 

That Gautama’s mindfulness was his way of living implies that once he had aroused his mindfulness, he could continue that mindfulness in other settings and in other postures.
 

At the start of his descriptions of the fourth concentration, Gautama noted that:
 

(A person)… comes to be sitting down…

(MN 119, tr. Pali Text Society p 134)

 

Nevertheless, I believe that once Gautama had attained the fourth concentration, he could surrender activity of the body to the free location of consciousness in any posture.

(The Diamond Trap, the Thicket of Thorns)

Taken from a conversation I had in the comment section of Brad Warner's "Hardcore Zen" blog, back when he allowed comments:

Of late, I spend a few minutes when I first sit down doing what you suggest, letting attention go to the area of my sacrum and its movement vis-a-vis the ilia. I also rock back and forward, sideways, and observe the rotation that naturally occurs. Then I think of the basic Alexander Technique instruction, “Let my neck be free.” etc. Once I’ve adjusted and settled in this way, I put my hands in the mudra, and start my zazen. I also use double mats below the cushion at home, or even bed pillows.

Since I started limbering up in this way, I can sit comfortably in half-lotus for two rounds of 40 minutes, with kinhin between. Not just bearably, actually in comfort. I didn’t even know that was a possibility.

(“Shinchan Ohara”, Brad Warner’s “Hardcore Zen” blog comment section, March 4th 2015)

 

However long you can sit, is fine, for starters. I sit 25's, I sit 30's, I sit 35's, I sit 40's. I sit short sittings, if something comes up, or I decide I've had enough.

On 6/24/2025 at 4:19 PM, Apech said:

... and the lead singer of New Order in a theater.

 

Ah, Joy Division, RIP!

23 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Yeah but you already had fame as a well known TV personality  !  

 

"Bill Oddie was a rebel... he roamed, through the West..."

(apologies to Johnny Yuma)



 

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

On 5/19/2025 at 5:23 PM, Mark Foote said:

 

Quote

"consciousness can take place in a specific location in response to that stress, and the location of consciousness can lead the balance of the body to engage activity in order to relieve that stress".

 

23 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

of course i had to google "semi-sesquicentennial definition"

 

Semisesquicentennial can be broken down to understand its meaning: "semi" - half of + "sesqui" - in the ratio of 3:2 + "centennial" - 100 years. Broken out mathematically, 1/2 * 3/2 * 100 = 75

 

Hooray for Mark !

 

The old man, and "she who must be obeyed" (apologies to John Mortimer):

Strange, the attraction this thread has for me.

Me, the most popular person on Dao Bums!

Solstice three hours and some ahead now, the sun will already be low in the Western sky at solstice. 

Almost half a year gone, poof! 

May your Midsummer be a celebration, for me my semi-sesquicentennial. Wishing the best to everyone!

On 6/18/2025 at 12:12 PM, Apech said:

calm embroidering

but crotchety while at my

daily crocheting 
 

daily crocheting 

clouds knit together, above
dark waters, below

15 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

"Therefore, it is said:
"Those who implemented the Tao
Did not use it to make the people shrewd;
Rather, they used it to make them simple."
The reason why the people are difficult to rule
Is that they are crafty.
Therefore, using craft to govern a state
Is a pest to the state;
Using noncraft to govern a state
Is a blessing to the state.
Constantly remember: these two constitute a guideline;
Constantly remembering this guideline
Is called a deep and remote virtue.
The deep and remote virtue
Is deep indeed, remote indeed;
And, though contrary to all things,
Will eventually reach Grand Harmony."
-  Translated by Chichung Huang, Chapter 65

 

How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen Paree!

"Using noncraft to govern a state"--a kind of "not doing", I'm sure. That's the proper subject of Dao Bums in my opinion, how that not-doing is done. The rest, as DDJ makes clear, takes care of itself.

15 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

... When there are too many restrictions and regulations, people become poor.
When there are too many weapons, the kingdom is in disarray.
When there are too many tricks, bizarre things happen.
When there are too many decrees, the crime rate increases.

(-  Translated by Thomas Zhang, Chapter 57)

 

Hmmm.  Too many tricks... stop me if you've seen this one: