Mark Foote

A silver ship came down from the sky

and a silver man got out.

 

"Look here!" he said "In my palm"

"All the definitions of every word in the world."

Remember the Alamo

When help was on the way

It's better here and now,

I feel that good today.

I'd like to take a walk

But not around the block

I really got some news

I met a man from Mars.

He picked up all my guitars

And played me traveling songs.

And when we got on ship

He brought out

something for the trip

And said, It's old but it's good

Like any other primitive would.

(from "Ride my Llama" by Neil Young)

(Story continues.)

 

With that they begin their short walk to the library.

'Damn, Rene, didn' you say the library was just right here? Walkin' for miles now, I ain't seen no library! Man, how we gonna define happiness if the library be closed by the time we get there...

Hi Mark,

Lines 1, 2, and 3 are reality. Line 4 is a delusion. Line 2 implies that the ox is walking as the rider rides.

Now we know that a breath that blows upon a fire will add to the flame (more oxygen). The flame is not extinguished. An empty, unmoving hand cannot produce a breeze, just as an empty mind cannot produce a thought.

Ah! But Rene was always there. Even when he doubted his existence he was there. Even his doubting reinforced the reality of his existence.

 

Everything that exists and everything that does not exist is very real at every specific point in time. Time will alter its condition or state of reality but regardless of its condition it is real none-the-less.

 

Consider this thought. What I am existed before I existed, it is just that what I am was in a different condition before I existed. What I am now will one day take on another condition but we don't know what that will be yet.

 

Peace & Love!

Hi, Marbles (and all you bums out there)-

line 4 is poetic license. Not flag, not wind, mind is moving- you know, that one. Interesting that the pine and bamboo draw a breeze; if we are wild and rooted, I think sometimes we draw a breeze as well. If you blow on a tinder fire, you do indeed feed the flames- but if a draft catches a sputtering candle, likely that's that, over and done.

I agree with the unlearning part, yet the danger is in assuming too big a role in the process. The muscles of the pelvis move in response to stretch, the very place we rest on is in motion if we relax and sink into the stretch, yet the mind must be with what is uncomfortable as well as with what is comfortable before we ride and our legs feel as though we walk.

Now I'm no sage and I'm no Rene, just a lowly spectator in the back, so please to correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm hearing is ...

 

If you see a rose, in an empty hand,

you are in the realm of illusion.

 

If you see a hand holding a rose, as empty,

you are in the realm of delusion.

 

Otherwise you are in the realm of the "Real",

Where a rose is a rose, by any name.

from Fuxi (500 C.E.?):

An empty hand grasps the hoe handle

Walking along, I ride the ox

The ox crosses the wooden bridge

The bridge is flowing, the water is still

From Wuzu (1100 C.E.?):

... Charmingly, the pine and bamboo draw a clear breeze.

Nother favorite, from Alexandra David-Neel:

Nirvana means an extinction, or rather, the action of a breath which blows upon a flame and extinguishes it.

So "an empty hand charmingly draws a clear breeze that blows upon a flame and extinguishes it".

Rene was not there, in a very real sense.

Ha ha!

This is a beautiful thread, I think, for the honesty of the people and the sharing. Thanks, all.

I heard Dr. John Lee speak about progesterone on the radio in Mendocino one day, and he was fascinating. A guy from Minnesota, treating women who were at risk for ovarian or mammarian cancer but suffering osteoporosis, in a family practice in Mill Valley, CA. Went to hear him speak at the Mendo Middle School gymnasium. Asked him about progesterone and joint pain, and he said it seemed to help his patients with arthritis, so I went for it. Rub 1/4 teaspoon of Progest on a different spot each day, knock off for a week or two weeks every so often.

Why bother with sexual cultivation, you can get the real thing in a tube?- is what I sometimes wonder. As Dr. Lee said, the message of estrogen to cells is divide and multiply (and I suspect that's the message in testosterone too), but the message of progesterone is mature. In the third trimester, the levels of progesterone in a woman's body are amazing.

Ok, I wouldn't do it to try to live forever, but if you have joint pain or osteoporosis you could check out Dr. John Lee's "what your Dr. may not tell you about menopause", or the companion books "what your Dr. may not tell you about premenopause" & "what your Dr. may not tell you about breast cancer". The latter not written by Dr. Lee himself. I can't say what sexual cultivation in Taoism is really about, but I think hormones is the most likely guess, personally.

As to my sex life, could be better! But you know what, I'm fine; my friends are golden, and when my heart was pulsing 133 the rest didn't matter (they fixed that).

kickin' in for fun, y'all- Mark

Yeah. Funny. As far as I know it requires a 'real' person to be able to pick up a cup of tea and drink. One's sixth sense just cannot do that (to the best of my knowledge).

Thanks for your thoughts, MB (& who knew, hat eating could be a topic on Tao Bums?)

it's possible to debate the Gautamid's notion that consciousness arises based on sense-contact, or his notion that attachment, aversion, and ignorance condition the occurrence of consciousness, but for me the vital presence in what he had to say is when I recognize that the place of occurrence of consciousness is no longer spontaneous if the feeling of pain or pleasure associated with the occurrence of consciousness is grasped. If the place of occurrence of consciousness is no longer spontaneous, the function of the location of consciousness in generating the activity of the body out of stretch is absent, and the tea cup sits on the table staring back at whomever tries to lift it without the exercise of will!

that's what I meant. Seems like some of us don't believe it's possible to do nothing, and yet everything will be done?...

Thanks V. And I knew that there was potential Buddhahood it that body of yours. Hehehe. Yes, you have a body - just ask your girlfriend.

 

Peace & Love!

Peace, love, spare change? on the Tao Bums site, who could imagine!

When we are experiencing the confusion and imbalance of contact in the six senses, who among us can let go and allow the occurrence of consciousness to function in the relaxed stretch already in existence, to act?

If the conversation about awareness or about dependent origination can pick up a cup of tea, I'll eat my hat.

love,

Mark

so teachers just sit on a throne all the time and don't mingle with people? LOL. you have a funny view of things, completely incomprehensible. all the teachers that I highly respect deal with people all the time, in fact they travel so damn much from country to country teaching students. they have no time to go on a forum and argue with people, they see that as fruitless and pointless.

 

when you find the right teacher, you aren't surrendering to an external being who is just as deluded as you, you are surrendering to Buddha, pure wisdom, your true nature, whatever name you want to give it. the teacher is just a symbol.

 

like, nowhere in the Dao De Jing is the Dao ever posited to be a self existing thing, and in the right context you could say Dharmakaya is the source of all Things. it's all about context. so I sort of give up on trying to interpret Taoist philosophy; i don't know classical Chinese and Chinese is so contextual, especially Classical. its very different than modern. so we don't have enough information to conclude what these sages were really saying. its too cryptic for me, i like the concreteness of Buddhist philosophy so I stick with that. but in terms of comparison its just impossible IMO

Hi, Mikaelz,

I would agree that teachers I have met are mostly trying to repay a debt to their teachers, and they live difficult lives. Although I acknowledge that the presence of a teacher is a gift, and can show us something about living that we may have never been exposed to before, I also wonder if the traditional methods of transmission of Eastern religions cannot be combined with a better exposition of the groundwork through the methods of Western science. I'm a pragmatist, when it comes to the end of suffering, and I thoroughly believe it's right there happening in all of our lives constantly and we just overlook it.

Not that I believe life is suffering. I believe that the four truths and the rest of the Gautamid's teachings apply when suffering exists, and otherwise they are just the sound of the wind through the trees.

I agree with you that the translations from the Chinese can make all the difference in the world. There have been several excellent translations on this website, that's one of the amazing things about it!

yours,

Mark

 

And you might want to hold your breath when chopping water else you will likely get a mouthful of water.

 

lol yeah well the way some characters around these woods put it, might as well be chopping water. I swear they are holding their breath!

uh-oh, I've done it now...

 

'I, Hui-neng, knows no device,

My thoughts are not suppressed:

The objective world ever stirs the mind,

And what is the use of maturing Enlightenment?'[/i]

 

Love that!- "the objective world ever stirs the mind". Things as it is, as Shunryu Suzuki said.

ANYBODY GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT?!?! ha ha, love you guys, even when my mouth is full of marbles!

less'ee, now, right foot first, then left... no, wait, left foot then... hmmm.

 

I think this can be both helpful and harmful. It's helpful in a sense that this can lead to a healthy relaxation with regard to phenomena. It's harmful in that the context for "volitive activity has now ceased" is the idea that "volitive activity has previously been operative". However, if you believe that volition can be operative one moment, and yet cease another, you clearly don't understand the nature of volition as a single experiential continuum that embraces strong exertion on one end and utmost non-interference on the other end. You must understand the singleness of this entire continuum of volition and avoid the mistake of associating volition solely with exertion, which is what worldly beings do.

I was just explaining the teachings of the Pali sermon volumes regarding karma, on account of "thuscomeone" asked for an explanation. Does volition cease in perception and sensation? Yes, suddenly. Is the means of that cessation obtainable through words and texts? Not actually. Does it have to do with the end of suffering?

The exercise of will, intent, these are the things that are spoken of in the Pali cannon in association with becoming in the future. If you are looking to live the life of purity to realize an end of suffering, then the cessation of speech, of body, and of mind are your compass, the very ground under your feet- are they not?

yers Mark

"clearing up" was clearing up what I have learned myself so far and then sharing it with others

hey, tathagatha,

how ya doin'!

I think our "takes" are always going to be in flux, but given that fact of existence, I'd like to mention the things I find important in grabbing the rope lift.

First, it's about suffering, as far as the truths the Gautamid had to offer. If suffering exists, then practice and the truths have meaning, and only if suffering exists.

The Gautamid taught a practice that begins with sitting cross-legged and holding the body upright. He stated that his own practice was the intent contemplation of in-breaths and out-breaths, both before and after enlightenment. He taught that by attendence to sense-organ, sense-contact, consciousness arising with sense-organ/sense-contact, impact connected with consciousness, and feeling connected with consciousness and impact (with regard to each of the six senses), all the factors of enlightenment develop toward fruition.

In my experience, when I am just sitting, sense-organ, sense-contact, consciousness, impact, and feeling sit the posture. That means the experience acts, with no intermediary. And the experience can get up and walk around. Shunryu Suzuki made a beautiful explanation that somebody captured on video, here:

The Gautamid spoke of the cessation of the activities, which he said was gradual. These are the cessation of the activity of speech, the cessation of the activity of body, and the cessation of the activity of mind. By activity, he meant volitive action. Thus the cessation of the activity of speech is not necessarily the cessation of speech, the cessation of the activity of body is not necessarily the cessation of movement, and the cessation of mind (or of perception and sensation) is not necessarily the cessation of the occurrence of perception and sensation. Speech ceases in the first rupa jhana (material elements trance), the influence of volition on the in-breath and out-breath ceases in the fourth rupa jhana, and the influence of volition on perception and sensation ceases in the fifth arupa jhana (immaterial elements trance.

Karma is connected with the exercise of volition. The ignorance involved in the exercise of volition creates a station of consciousness, the station of consciousness gives rise to sense-contact that ultimately results in the identification of self with the material, with feeling, with mind, with activity, or with consciousness. The identification of self is suffering.

As to where all this is hiding, I hope we can drop like a baby and roll like a log today.

yers, Mark

 

The Tibetans use a different type of Yoga, Yantra Yoga or Turl Khor Wiki Link on Turl Khor

 

The Tibetan Medical system uses the chakras and meridians too. Also the Tibetan Massage system called Kunye, sometimes it's written kanye. They use the pressure points and meridians, it's very interesting.

Thanks, Mr. V- now a beautiful afternoon, think I'll go to the sugar-skull making demonstration in Walnut park today, part of the "Dia De Los Muertos" fun in Petaluma in October. Cheers! ('..')

I'm not sure I understand your question? Do you mean how the physical yogas cure ailments? Well through stretching and opening up the blood flow and other elements of the body, but the physical yogas work directly with the winds or energy flow as well, the channels and chakras.

 

Can you clarify your question please? Thanks.

Hey, Vajrahridaya,

I was referring to this part of what you said: "and Tibetan Medicine uses the findings to cure patients with the body..."

I'm aware of hatha yoga, and the first part of your statement was about Indian healing systems, presumably including yoga for the body, but I don't think of hatha yoga in connection with Tibetan medicine. So your statement made me wonder if you were referring to some aspect of Tibetan medicine I wasn't familiar with.

Beautiful night here in Petaluma, CA; hope you're having a fine time, wherever you are.

yers, Mudlark

Just to share a contrast because it was brought up.

 

The Vajrayana system has 84,000 nadis or currents and then the many different chakras and Tibetan Medicine uses the findings to cure patients with the body, prana or winds, energy currents and mind system framework.

Tibet actually was the center of the major trade routes and also shared information with India. Tibetan Medicine is a mixture of Chinese/Ayurveda of the Indians the Siddha medicine, Bon... etc.

Ok, so there we have a three-some that I think is a pretty good match to jing-qi-shen: body, prana or winds, energy currents and mind system framework.

There's a fascinating quote in gospel of Thomas purported to be from Jesus where he says something like if the body comes out of the spirit, that's a miracle, but if the spirit comes out of the body, that were a miracle of miracles. I think he adds something about how he's always amazed that "such riches can come out of such poverty", or words to that effect. Most folks I talk to about my practice are so concerned about what happens to their mind after they die, they cannot stand to look at the body at all. I'm wondering what cures are effected with the body, as opposed to winds or energy currents, and what that's like, if you know (or maybe you just misspoke?- that would be my luck).

Taoism is different because we Taoists don't normally talk about Buddhist dogma.

 

Peace & Love!

I'm seeking a clarification from Vajrahridaya about his statement that jing would probably correspond to prana, or "inner wind", in the Tibetan tradition. How can you determine that Taoism is different from Buddhism without this essential clarification, are there elements that correspond to jing-qi-shen in the Tibetan tradition (putting aside the refuge tripitaka of buddha-dharma-sangha)? Ha ha, take that, Mr. M!

Grew up Shaivite Tantra and went Tibetan Tantra and Dzogchen some 5 years ago. The Dalai Lama is talking about ordained monks who at a certain point get permission to practice Highest Yoga Tantra (that has Karmamudra practice, which is sexual tantra with a live mate of high wisdom) due to their level of realization.

 

There are in Tibetan Tantra lay practitioners who are called Nagpas that get transmission for sexual tantra and can realize the same state of Buddhahood through sexual tantra and never take ordination and can get married and have kids.

 

Vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhism) is vast and complicated with many traditions and lineages, methods and philosophies from monks to lay practitioners.

 

Jing would probably be called a prana (inner wind) of some sort.

Fascinating!

I'm a little unclear on "get transmission for sexual tantra"- meaning someone acknowledges the nagpa's declaration that for the nagpa there is no more of being such and such, that they (the nagpa) have laid down the burden, etc., and gives them a document of authenticity and permission to teach Buddhism (in some form or another), based on a practice which is explicitly centered around sexual union?

Never heard that acknowledged by anyone before, but I'm not too disturbed to think it's true, since every act in this life is a part of practice in a sense (and I think sexual relations are a healthy thing, for people who love one another- for the most part!).

Do you see a triumvirate in Vajrayana practice (other than Buddha-Dharma-Sangha), I'm wondering?

Mark,

 

This bit caught my eye - can you expand at all about what you mean?

 

Thanks.

 

A.

Hi, Apepch7, sure (I think!) I can...

I played with hypnosis in middle school and early high school years, I did succeed in inducing trance in others and I think myself (using tapes, actually), but I didn't do much with it. The method of induction I used was a patter like "relax your entire body breathing in- relax your entire body breathing out; feel the weight of the body breathing in- feel the weight of the body breathing out", mostly around breathing in and out.

As I mentioned before on this site, I got into veganism for a couple of years, and became a little spacey I think. Maybe six months after I started eating small amounts of egg, fish, and cheese again, I was sitting at my desk in a house on Cole St. San Francisco on the north side of the panhandle, trying to keep an awareness of breath throughout a day. I found myself rising from my desk, and as I retained my awareness of breath I moved to the door of my room. This was exactly like action from hypnotic suggestion, no will on my part involved at all, just witness; catch is, there was no suggestion (unless perhaps the suggestor was my subconscious mind?). I retained the feeling of the experience, and tried for years to get all my activity to come from that place. After awhile I realized that if I truly believed an action was necessary, "the windy element" would move my body to effect it, but like hypnosis I couldn't get "the windy element" to do anything I didn't truly believe in. I used to have a roommate who loved to go down to Gaylord's ice cream parlor with me and watch me eat; kind of trippy when the hand moves independent of the will, but hopefully I'm not so fanatic anymore.

Years later, I did hear Kobun Chino Otogawa chide everyone at S.F. Zen Center as he closed a lecture, saying "you know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around". Question is, how do you set up the experience for someone else? I'm convinced that personal necessity is a big part of it, my practice at the time was to give up everything until I got down to what I absolutely needed. That's why I was a little spacey, you get to feeling subtle energies when you are giving things up like that. Trick is not to hurt yourself, and I think the meditation on in-breaths and out-breaths is like an anchor in that regard.

A decade later I realized I still couldn't sit the lotus worth beans, and I set to studying kinesthesiology, at first from "low back pain syndrome" by Rene Calliet (hope I'm spelling that right) and articles he referenced, then fortunately through the works of John Upledger and other cranial-sacral practitioners. I now apply myself to realize "the windy element" in the simple actions of upright posture from one instance of consciousness to the next, and I find it is really keyed to the free movements of the sacrum, and the impact of sense contact on the stretch already in existence as consciousness takes place. My latest write references this toward the end (Zazen), though I admit the connection with hypnotic phenomena is not yet clear to me and not explicitly in that writing.

Mark

Kriya yoga of the yogananda tradition is based on the small universe (just like Taoist Yoga) AND the full-lotus as well.

 

Check out the 16 mn of this vid:

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...&plindex=3#

Thanks for the video recommendation, the opening few minutes were very interesting; the graphic sure resembled the sphenoid, butterfly bone in the center of the skull with the pineal embedded in the center of it.

I don't seek to transcend the senses, so I tuned out after awhile, but I appreciate the descriptions none the less.

Mr. V, is it the Tibetan path you are on then? I'm not sure what part of jing they address in Tibetan Buddhism, but like Taoism there seem to be strains of Tibetan Buddhism that allow of intercourse under certain conditions. Not much acknowledged, I know the Dalai Lama said these are the monks that also eat shit, but that's about the only straight reference I've heard to it. And in Taoism, what, they want to retain the semen (shades of the novel Candy)? Well, I don't know if sexuality is the height of jing, or entering the eye of I-forget-who in the center of the brain as in the video of the Indian yogin; I think I will hope to experience whatever I can of the stuff I am made of, since there is nothing apart from that, so the Gautamid taught.

 

My experience is that what WESTERN Buddhists and Daoists have in common is that they are just Buddhist and Daoist up to a certain point. If you push them long enough, they go back to listening to Big River by Johnny Cash.

 

And that is a good thing.

 

h

That is why we are Tao Bums, we love Johnny Cash!

 

Because grasp of concepts such as post-heavenly qi and pre-heavenly qi may sound difficult to some people , I think some kind of operational definition maybe helpful : qi that you can initiate by paying attention to certain place of your body, likely the location called dantian , is called post-heavenly qi ; qi that you can initiate by paying attention to nothing/nowhere under a much clearer mind ( Awakening ) is called pre-heavenly qi .

Of course, it is only an operation repeatedly done successfully by a small group of people ,some kind of

collective truth in a small range no match to any scientific test , so I oppose calling it any scientific truth ;

 

There is some truth beyond the reach of science .

I think the difference between Taoism and Buddhism is in the emphasis, primarily.

I like the triumvirate, jing-chi-shen, as a description of the elements of practice. In the Pali Cannon sermons, the Gautamid speaks of "the intent concentration on in-breaths and out-breaths"; he also speaks of consciousness, and of the phenomena associated with the occurrence of consciousness. Although the parallel is not exact, I feel as though the Gautamid adressed chi and shen, but did not directly address jing; indirectly, yes, but not explicitly. He de-emphasized phenomena associated with the serpent on Ascelpius's staff, so to speak.

exorcist_1699, I appreciate your posts. I'm hoping you will be interested in an explanation of practice with pre-heavenly qi, post-heavenly qi, in kinesthetic terms.

Cheng Man-ching, the Tai-Chi master, spoke of chi sinking to the tan-tien, circulating throughout the body, and finally overflowing the tan-tien to the tailbone and up the spine to the top of the head. He cautioned that no force must be used in the movement of chi from the tan-tien to the tailbone and up the spine, and that consulting a teacher or fellow students might be advisable.

My experience is this: the flexion-extension of the cranial-sacral system at the sacrum stretches the sacro-spinous ligaments and the sacro-tuberous ligaments, and these ligaments induce reciprocal innervation in the muscles that hammock the pelvis off the hips and rotate the pelvis on the hips. As the pelvis rotates, the stretch of fascia behind the sacrum innervates the piriformis muscles and the extensors, and the psoas muscle is innervated in response to the activity in the extensors. The sides of the psoas muscle rotate the balance of the body around the vicinity of the tan-tien, before the sides of the psoas slide over the pubes to align the hips and permit the tip and rotation of the pelvis around the sacrum.

Because the spontaneous place of occurrence of consciousness coordinates the autonomic respiration of breath and of cranial-sacral fluid, paying attention to nothing in particular (and yet excluding nothing) develops the rhythm of both respirations (pre-heavenly qi); because attendance to particular places is a part of the development of the stretches necessary to reciprocal innervation, qi also develops through the recollection of the sign of the concentration in practice, at the tan-tien, behind the sacrum, and elsewhere (post-heavenly qi). How important is the movement of the butterfly bone in the skull that terminates on the sides of the eye-sockets, I don't know, but I suspect equally as important as the free movement of the sacrum. Free movement of the sacrum depends on support for the lower spine in the movement of breath, in the ilio-lumbar ligaments (2 sets, the vertical set engaged in inhalation, the horizontal set engaged in expiration). The movement of breath, the cranial-sacral rhythm, and the free occurrence of consciousness, I think these three are present with different emphasis in all the spiritual teachings.

Is it enough to just tell people to sit with the legs crossed and hold the body upright, to cover jing? Not for me, it wasn't enough, I couldn't find my way; I'm grateful for the Taoist teachings and the martial arts of China, particularly Tai-Chi and Xing Yi, and for the freedom to include an ordinary life as sacred that Taoism implies. I'm satisfied it will all work out, with a little good will.

Well... we take refuge in the triple jewel, not an abstract and transcendent concept. So, the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha is our North star.

 

Take care.

I think we're fortunate to have the early works, both in the Tripitaka and in Taoism, apparently. And in the gnostic gospels.

I read that the original summons to the five ascetics was, "come, live the life of purity to make an end of suffering". And at the end of his life, the Gautamid declared it was only necessary to observe the three principle rules (unfortunately nobody knows which three he was referring to).

I met a Zen teacher in Palo Alto, and she was certain I should find a teacher, and work on my posture. I told her I had considered zazen my teacher, since the day it got up and walked around; I wonder if we cannot communicate now in the vocabulary of all three early teachings, and kinethesiology, and cranial-sacral therapy, talk to people about the funny intersection of will and hypnotic phenomena around the breath.

I will take a chance, and dedicate my life to this, because I have no choice. Do you have a choice, when you take refuge, I wonder... I feel a stranger when you invoke the Buddhist idea, I have to say. I'm pretty much a failure, on the Buddhist trail alone, I'm afraid. I feel some life when I recall the practices in all three, however, and especially when I find that I have let go of being anyone again. How hard it must be to keep these institutions alive, my hat is off to all those who have, what an admirable life!

yours, Mark

 

 

Originally there is nothingness (本來無一物)

by no way can we attach to any impurity (何處惹塵埃)

 

Saying that a mind "neither thinking of good , nor thinking of evil " (不思善,不思惡) is all what it is , is unlikely true .There are still a lot of unspoken secrets .

 

I love both of these things, especially "by no way can we attach to any impurity". And the triumvirate of jing-chi-shen is being good to me, I appreciate the voices (yours among them) who added that to the "Taoism different from Buddhism" dialogue. I have in my writing and in my practice concluded that the place of occurrence of consciousness acts, through reciprocal innervation (muscles signaled to contract through the stretch of fascia, in agonist/antagonist pairs throughout the body). Thus, consciousness before discrimination sits, and moves. Emptiness exploding into pieces, the moments of consciousness, the impact in the fascial stretch as consciousness takes place, the feeling. Jing the stretch in existence as consciousness takes place, chi the movement of breath, shen the occurrence of consciousness balanced between. My practice (Marblehead, ignore this!).

ok, and $1.75 gets a cup of coffee here at Peet's. By no way can we attach to any impurity. The end of suffering, from the cessation of ignorance. The guest mistaking the host might want an end of suffering, the pure man breathing to his heals might too, yet for both by no way can we attach! Ha ha.