Mark Foote

Over the last few days I've been skimming over some verses/poems and quotes by the ancient Ch'an and Zen masters. Hui Neng, Huang Po, Tozan, Bankei Hakuin

To be quite honest some of these writings have the hallmark of philosophical Taoism (Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu) Even mentioning Tao, the Way etc etc.

Ch'an and Zen seems more like Taoism than the Indian Buddhism from where it supposed to have originated.

I think I read somewhere that in some Ch'an and Zen schools, the TTC is part of the curriculum.

Forgive my naivety in these matters as it's something I've only recently been pondering.

Any thoughts ?

Ok, a little off topic, but how do you like that book (the Xing Yi book in your avatar)? I was doing the exercises out of that book for years, then about December I suddenly stopped. Did the first four today, and remembered how much I liked them.

 

focus'd health within

yoga safe box blocks the pain

healing with a grin

 

healing with a grin

out under the stars- rain past,

shoes almost worn through

need a root canal!

angry dentist is shouting -

whispers ... just relax.

whispers... just relax

this won't hurt a bit- ready?

and me, still undone

As the small group approaches the park, the sage is startled to see a crowd of people gathered in a corner of the park, seated around an placid individual in the lotus and engaged in some discussion. The sage shakes his head, and there is only mist in the park and his group of followers, muttering among themselves in the chill morning air.

The sage sits himself down on a bench where the sun has almost begun to warm things, and pulls a bottle of E&J brandy out of a small paper bag he's been carrying. The eyebrows of his followers reach to the heavens as he takes a swig; dumbfounded, they realize how much their happiness has of late depended on him, who gives every appearance of becoming blotto before their eyes, at this ungodly hour. The sage begins to sing: "when true simplicity is gained; to bow, and to bend, we shall not be ashamed; to turn, to turn, shall be our delight..."- just then the gathering is interrupted by the sound of Bunny the librarian's heels as she approaches up the path on her way to the library, her trench coat revealing the essence of feminimity as she studiously ignores the small crowd.

A widely known kōan is

 

"Two hands clap and there is a sound; what is the sound of one hand?"

 

(oral tradition attributed to Hakuin Ekaku, 1686-1769, considered a reviver of the kōan tradition in Japan).

 

(above taken from wikipedia, here)

...when you make

eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand

in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place

of a foot, (and) an image in the place of an image,

then shall you enter [the Kingdom].

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 18-19 log. 22, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

Ahhh... election time

fun to watch pants catch fire

rapturous applause..

rapturous applause

delusions of paradise

just over the hill

 

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

 

This is a question about the stretch that is already in existence as consciousness takes place, and the activity out of that stretch; s'trick question, because of the word "sound". Here's a trick answer, from P'u-hua, to the sound of a bat no ball homering:

When they come in the light, I hit them in the light;

When they come in the dark, I hit them in the dark.

(“Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, Carl Bielefeldt, pg 156, ©1988 Regents of the University of California)

P'u-hua is a bit heavy when he claps one-handed, wouldn't you say? Not that he does.

Fireflies everywhere,

and the fool on two legs asks,

what's enlightenment?..

what's enlightenment

fireflies under the hat, frog's legs

in the pockets, salt

ok, nevermind- many haikus have flowed since the river was fireflies-

let me be the spark

and put out my head of flames

when your lamp is lit

(not sure what's happening with the order of things- need a check-out function for post replies!)

splicing from way back-

man with giant cock

fight the zipper up, turn, out,

waltz all the way home

waltz all the way home

past the sirens, heart to where

Penelope spins

yes distracted; thanks for catching it Apepch7. Apologies Rainbow_Vein. Visual handicaps and ranging headache not a good mix...

 

what a great mixture

spirit and science finding

ecstatic commons

 

Let's bridge Mark's back into the chain:

 

ecstatic commons

ready...set...hike the skirts up,

roll the pants down - dance!

thanks, all- like that ecstatic commons lead-in!

somewhat incestuous, composing off my own line, but here goes:

roll the pants down - dance!

pull the socks up, bottle gone

waltz all the way home

deleted "all" to give required 5 units for 5-7-5 pattern here

 

it's about the glans

or not, butt the gland inside

jing>>>qi>>>shen, prostate

jing>>>qi>>>shen, prostate

ready...set...hike the skirts up,

roll the pants down- dance!

Dreams of a new Spring

Not silent but full of song

a nest full of chicks.

a nest full of chicks

wary, and hungry, and loud

not unlike Tao Bums

making traffic jam

I pedal on the four winds

-cooking with chaos!

cooking with chaos

oreos in cheek, full moon

rises on flat backs

(flat backs, or small hills, the translation of Petaluma- from the Miwok language, and indeed they are!)

Traditionally, the Skandha of form was the body or matter, and all the others up to Vijnana were considered mind. You will find a lot of Theravada talk about mind and matter. Vijnana can be translated as "discriminating consciousness". Now, if you fast forward to the Zen masters, you will hear a lot of talk about getting rid of discrimination. So this must not be the mind they are talking about.

 

Ma Tsu thought he could become a Buddha by sitting in meditation. But the master picked up a tile, polishing it to become a mirror. How can polishing a tile make a mirror? How can sitting make a Buddha?

 

This is why I said, Neither.

Here are some lines from the Stanford project (at zazenshin), translating Dogen's words, and here Dogen continues the story about polishing a tile:

Daji said, "How can you produce a mirror by polishing a tile?"

Nanyue replied, "How can you make a buddha by sitting in meditation (zazen)?"

Daji asked, "Then, what is right?"

Nanyue replied, "When someone is driving a cart, if the cart doesn't go, should he beat the cart or beat the ox?"

Daji had no response.

Nanyue went on, "Are you studying seated meditation or are you studying seated buddha?"

"If you're studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting or reclining."

"If you're studying seated buddha, buddha is no fixed mark."

"If you're studying seated buddha, this is killing buddha."

"If you grasp the mark of sitting, you're not reaching its principle."

In Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation, at least the first edition, Bielefeldt offered "if you're studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting still", which I kind of prefer. I love Bielefeldt's book, because it makes clear that Dogen rewrote his zazen instructions many times, and borrowed much of his original content from a Chinese manuscript. Still amazing.

Of course Dogen got the famous bit about dropping mind and body from his teacher in China. Yet his description of shikantaza says "attained the way through their bodies". My understanding is that the necessity of breath and the necessity of the cranial-sacral respiration move consciousness to effect carriage and posture; to move the cart, is about the place of occurrence of consciousness. Place in the occurrence of consciousness creates an impact on the stretch already in existence in the body as consciousness takes place. The impact generates activity (not sitting still), and the activity generates ability to feel; the sound of water or the sight of blossoms is about an ability to feel, hence "attained the way through their bodies".

What is a body without a mind?

Toward the end of the Majjhima Nikaya, there's a sermon on the six-fold sense field. The Gautamid is quoted as saying that all that is necessary for the eight fold path and all the other elements of enlightenment to develop and come to fruition is knowing, seeing as it really is sense object, sense organ, consciousness associated with sense object and sense organ, impact (associated with consciousness), and feeling (associated with impact). Consciousness only exists because of contact between sense object and sense organ, in other sermons in the Pali Cannon, and there is no continuous consciousness (the description is that it's like a forest fire jumping from tree to tree, it appears as though the fire has a separate existence but really there is no fire without the fuel that it burns). Mind is one of the six senses, so in this context the physical experience of mind object/mind sense, mind consciousness, mind consciousness impact, and mind consciousness impact feeling is emphasized. Shikantaza.

I think your question was intended to be rhetorical; since we are all teaching ourselves here, I have taken the opportunity to clarify a point to myself, and I don't know if we are still in conversation or not. If so, feel free to make a note- crazy people, talking to themselves, or is it a cellphone or a blog, god knows... thanks.

Need to fix this!

 

 

purity, leaf, stem

a herbal mix, a potion,

Love's a perfect thing.

 

 

 

 

ah that's better ...

(Yay, Apepch7!)

All is nought for four

inside, outside, left, right, fall

winter summer spring

(hey, Drew- don't forget to use the last line previous as your start- nice haiku, totally inscutable, ha ha!)

There is no evidence for such places. Sure, there may be parallel dimensions or universes, but there's no reason to believe karma will direct us to any of those places because of our good or bad deeds.

 

 

This is great news!

 

Thank you for sharing your experiences in the Soto Sangha with us.

 

And thank you for the encouraging words.

I think maybe fundamental to this discussion is the notion of whether or not you obtain enlightenment with your body, or your mind. I mention this because most of the people I talk to about my experience with zazen find my approach repugnant, because I am concerned with physical experience, and they usually question why I am so concerned with the body if in fact there is reincarnation. In other words, if an individual can be reborn, then the particulars of the physical body must be secondary in the quest for enlightenment, something like that.

I think the Gautamid was clear in the Pali Suttas that there is no soul, although at the behest of Ananda he often described the fate of those who had died, returning or not to this world. Strange, to my way of thinking. I can only speak from my own experience, and I haven't had a lot of psychic experience; to me, the connection with the universe at large is physical, primarily. Dogen also spoke to this, you can find the Dogen quote in my guide referenced below. Equanimity yields a kind of timelessness, and that I'm convinced is the Taoist immortality, and the heaven that Jesus spoke of. We have samsara, we have enlightenment, the Gautamid only knew the dharma without fault (nevertheless he talked a lot about social hierarchy and occasionally about fairies and ghosts, I believe he was mistaken on some of these counts as to the real nature of what he described).

He did explicitly describe hell realms. Have you seen "Jacob's Ladder", the movie?- I like the quote from Meister Eckhart, I believe it was, about hell just being a place where your attachments are broken down. As soon as you relinquish your attachments, the devils become angels accompanying you to heaven. I like this because the emphasis is on letting go and losing, which seems closer to the truth to me spiritually than gaining (enlightenment, heaven, what have you).

hope this is on topic.

O withered season...

when every world's a grain

of sand, eh Hamlet

of sand, eh Hamlet

and do they always smell so

e'en so, lord, e'en so

e'en so, lord, e'en so

like an upset cart set right

the norm expounded

(didn't want to leave it in Denmark)

with warmed baked beans too...

semi-congealed bacon fat

a trace of egg yolk.

 

 

(yum!)

a trace of egg yolk

just egg yolk, actually

a small one at that

(so bad! for this you healed the chain, Artform... ha ha!)

Bananarama!

United Fruit Company!

Carmen Miranda!

 

 

(great moments in Latin American history for northeners!)

(apologies, Stigward, don't know how that happened!)

Carmen Miranda

Jesus on the veranda

ay, dios mio!

the door says vacant

I'm off in the zero point

energies field friend

energies field friend

are you really there, or not?

rain on the window

 

 

I use the sitting on the edge of a chair, gentitals hanging over the edge of the chair position because my physiolgy doesn't agree with lotus and half-lotus positions...

 

How important is it to have one's back completely (as much as possible) straight during meditation? How important are these postures anyway?

I had some excellent experience on jury duty, sitting in a chair. Two things are important to me, sitting in a chair: sit on the edge of the chair, as I believe you describe (a chair with four legs solid on the floor); then, one foot flat on the floor with the knee at about a 90 degree angle, and the ball of the other foot resting on the floor under your tailbone, approximately. I sit this way all day at the computer, and have done so for the last twenty years. My back is not straight, especially the lower back, for the most part. Workman's comp came out to review it at one place I worked (management requested it, they were nervous), and they said fine. I can find absorption in this posture, which to me is like talking to the one who made this shell and letting it take me wherever. So to speak.

Cranial-sacral theory provides an excellent explanation of the importance of the crossed-legged postures, as far as I'm concerned, and that would be: they isolate the motion of the cranial sacral system at the sacrum so that it's apparent. Activity in meditation is involuntary, but for me it's important to remember that the fascia and ligaments can generate muscular activity without conscious intention, as they stretch.

Allopathic and cranial-sacral medicine both use dermatones, the areas on the skin where the nerves from the spine end up, as a means for diagnosing spinal dysfunction; standard testing is to run a pin head down the leg or arm, and see where there's a lack of feeling, and there are charts that will show you between which vertebrae the nerves are pinched if you have a lack of feeling in a particular location. What this says to me is that if you have feeling to the surface of the skin all over the body, your head, neck, and spine are aligned pretty much correctly, regardless of how it looks.

At the same time, it's my belief that in the lotus, motion of the cranial-sacral system at the sacrum results in activity in the muscles of the legs and pelvis, as feeling is opened or extended throughout the lower body. That activity ultimately returns to the bones on either side of the skull through the extensors, which travel in three sets behind the spine to the temporal bones on each side of the skull behind the jaw. As the temporals move the parietals on either side of the crown of the head, and the nerves that determine the cranial-sacral fluid volume rhythm respond to pressure at the saggital suture, it's possible that a feedback develops in the cranial sacral rhythm. John Upledger talks about "still points", when the cranial-sacral rhythm appears to cease momentarily, and the fascial support for the body rearranges subtley; he found that maintaining a slight extension on the bones of the skull was conducive to still points, but the individual's own psychie and need were the real determining factors.

We all have anxiety around falling down, especially backwards. Look for motion side to side, around, and forward and back wherever consciousness occurs; that's a sense of a physical place, the "wherever consciousness occurs", which the zen masters aver we should attend to 24/7. Relax the activity in the three directions. Let it sink, if you feel good with it, remember that the stretch that generates activity doesn't necessarily feel pleasant, but it doesn't have to go all the way to painful if you can relax the associated activity and let the mind move.

Single-weighted postures have a built-in activity from the stretch involved as well. & blah blah blah as somebody so eloquently said!

Well my blogspot name is "spiral dance" -- when something moves super fast then it looks like it doesn't move at all -- hence the secret of the full-lotus. Spacetime spins around you -- that's the spiraldance secret. People can say whatever we want but the full-lotus is reality -- it's the secret of spacetime travel. You can do it through dance under special circumstances. The yin-yang dynamics will work -- but astral travel after collapsing to the ground is dangerous. Full-lotus will "ground" the energy. Chunyi Lin went 49 days in full-lotus nonstop -- no food, no water, no sleep. So who am I? The full-lotus is more real than I am.

right on, as far as I'm concerned; the posture is bringing me along, not the reverse.