Mark Foote

Ain't we got fun!

5 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

 

Truth! In this modern age usually the day-to-day cooking and cleaning does not require enough chopping wood and carrying water to exhaust the yang phase. If sitting quietly reaches the point of diminishing returns too quickly, give a try to the ancient and powerful gong illustrated here:

 

Couldn't agree more about dance.

But I will disagree about the meaning of drawing water and chopping wood.
 

Miraculous power and marvelous activity
Drawing water and chopping wood.
 

(Pangyun, a lay Zen practitioner, eight century C.E.)
 

 

Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there;
lift up the stone and you will find Me there.
 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, pg 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

4 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

most cardio is boring, that's why I like BJJ lol. 

 

 

Got a second brown in judo in high school, and I couldn't agree more that it's the best exercise! 

Also, I've had two incidents of falling in my senior years, here.  The first I rolled out of, the second was on the slick floor of a laundromat and I actually slapped the laundromat floor as I was laid out full length.  Amazing sensation to match the force of the fall, and have nothing hurt when I got  up, not even my forearm.

Everybody should learn how to fall, and how to practice balance with another person, IMHO.

On 1/19/2024 at 12:35 PM, zoe said:

guidance:
 

2. This is a problem I've always had honestly but In meditating I do begin to feel as the sign of verification in Golden Flower 6.2 is described after some time, but inevitably shortly after that point (but often earlier) I'll begin to get random inner monologue noise, dismissing it inevitably pulls my attention and if I fully quiet it it feels like the only thing left to silence is the minuscule amount of attention I have directed at clearing miscellaneous thoughts away, after that's gone I'll find that it stays quiet for a little bit but inevitably something will come up and this usually disorients me badly enough that I just feel like I have to give up for a while. How do I deal with this?

 

 

Regarding "The Golden Flower":

 

Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.
 

(Eihei Dogen, “Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version, trans. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, pg 176)

 

There's a reference to that in "The Golden Flower".  Dogen predates"The Golden Flower" by half a millennia, but I'm sure he got it from earlier sources in China. 

If I feel as though I’m moving backward in space, I may suddenly have an acute sense of where my awareness is in my body, and that location may not be in my head.

Or, as I describe it in Waking Up and Falling Asleep:
 

Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them). When my awareness shifts readily, I realize that my ability to feel my location in space is made possible in part by the freedom of my awareness to move.
 

I sometimes overlook my location in space because I attach to what I’m feeling, or I’m averse to it, or I ignore it. The result is that I lose the freedom of my awareness to shift and move, and I have difficulty relaxing or staying alert. When I allow what I feel to enter into where I am, then my awareness remains free, and I can relax and keep my wits about me.

 

 

The "Golden Pill" or the pill of immortality, I would say is simply the one-pointedness of attention when necessity in the movement of breath places attention:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(Common Ground)
 

That's the same "location of awareness" I referred to as the practice in waking up and falling asleep. 

Here's I. B. Horner's translation of the mindfulness of mind, in Gautama's way of living:

[One] trains [oneself], thinking: ‘I will breathe in… breathe out experiencing thought… rejoicing in thought… concentrating thought… freeing thought.’
 

Key thing there is that in order to detach from thought ("freeing thought"), at least an appreciation of thought is necessary, if not a rejoicing.  Arrive at a positive frame, then see about detachment.

My approach, bearing in mind one-pointedness depends on a necessity:
 

A central theme of Gautama’s teaching was the cessation of “determinate thought” (AN III 414) in action, meaning the cessation of the exercise of will or volition in action.  A cessation of the exercise of will could be attained, said Gautama, through the induction of various successive states of concentration. As to the initial induction of concentration, Gautama declared that “making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind”.
 

I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought.  For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind.  I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep.

(Response to “Not the Wind, Not the Flag”)

 

 

 

 

On 1/18/2024 at 9:13 AM, markern said:

A friend of mine asked me to help her find some qigong practices that can help her bone health. She is an old lady with bone fragility. Do you know of online courses that is either taught live or recorded or tutorials on YouTube or similar that teaches Qigong for bone health/for strengthening bones and that you would recommend? 
 

Dr. John Lee, on his success in treating women who were experiencing osteoporosis but who were at risk for mammarian or ovarian cancer. Dr. Lee was thirty years a general practitioner in Marin County, California, and his was one of the first counties to actually have a bone scan machine, so that he could actually check his results.

He helped a women-led company in Oregon to develop a topical progesterone cream, "Progest".  Available over the counter, at your local Whole Foods, or by many suppliers online, no prescription necessary.  Never had a national test of "natural" progesterone, which is synthesized but molecularly identical to human progesterone, because it can't be patented (read: no profit for pharmaceutical companies).  Progestins, which are altered by at least a molecule to allow patenting, have side effects (none listed in the Physician's Reference for the "natural" hormone).

Been using it for thirty years,  fewer aches.  There's a review of his pamphlet on "Hormone Balance for Men" that would give you the gist, on the women's international compounding pharmacy site.  He has a book, "What Your Doctor Won't Tell You About Menopause".
 

 

On 1/12/2024 at 3:30 PM, Gerard said:

 

 

He Jinghan is a specialist of this type of work. His channel hosts hundreds of highly useful videos.

 

 

Really like that last one.

Gautama's description of the feeling of the third of the initial concentrations:

 

… free from the fervor of zest, (one) enters and abides in the third musing; (one) steeps and drenches and fills and suffuses this body with a zestless ease so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this zestless ease. … just as in a pond of blue, white, and red water-lillies, the plants are born in water, grow in water, come not out of the water, but, sunk in the depths, find nourishment, and from tip to root are steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with cold water so that not a part of them is not pervaded by cold water; even so, (one) steeps (one’s) body in zestless ease. 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS pg 132-134)
 

 

My experience:

 

… the center of balance can shift to a location that reflects involuntary activity in the limbs and in the jaw and skull. The feeling for activity in the legs, the arms, and the skull is indeed like an awareness of three varieties of one plant grown entirely below a waterline. 

(Common Ground)

 

 

That depends on finding ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine, through relaxation and calming the stretch of ligaments.  

Pulling the legs up, the arms in, and the jaw down (while the teeth are touching).  Pushing them back out--where are they, relative to center?

 

A description of “reciprocal innervation” from the writings of Dr. John Upledger--basically his experience while lying on salt water in an isolation tank:

 

At some point my body began to make fish-like movements, as though my pelvis and legs were the lower part of a fish moving its tail from side to side. This movement was nice and easy. The neurophysiologist in me related these movements to an expression of what we call ‘reciprocal innervation’. The principle here is that, when your trunk is bent to the side in one direction past a certain threshold, the muscles on the other side of the trunk contract. In doing so, the nerve impulses are diverted from the side to which you are bent, and those muscles relax. Your trunk now bends in the opposite direction until that side-bending threshold is passed. The nerve impulses are then diverted again to the opposite side, causing muscle contraction and side bending in that direction.

(“Your Inner Physician and You: Craniosacral Therapy and Somatoemotional Release”, John E. Upledger, p. 165)
 

 

On 1/16/2024 at 1:48 PM, Nungali said:

 

 

 

... and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to. ’tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish’d....

To sleep—perchance to dream. Ay, there’s the rub!
For what if, in that dream, the very chair we sit upon in sleep, falleth over...

(Hamlet, appended)

 

 

On 1/16/2024 at 11:28 PM, Cadcam said:

The Buddha says one needs to know Right Action to avoid suffering, but there is no way to prevent suffering, because all action leads to desire, either for one's self, or for other people. If I take an action, I cause someone to desire, or I am working upon acquiring a desire. Therefore this premise is faulted. There is no way to prevent desire, which he says causes suffering. 
 

 

Gautama’s teaching revolved around action, around one specific kind of action:
 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294)

 

“When one determines”—when a person exercises volition, or choice, action of “deed, word, or thought” follows.

 

Gautama also spoke of “the activities”.  The activities are the actions that take place as a consequence of the exercise of volition:

 

And what are the activities?  These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind.  These are activities.  

(SN II 3, Pali Text Society vol II p 4)
 

 

Gautama claimed that a ceasing of “action” is possible:

 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.  

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society Vol IV p 85)
 

 

He spoke in detail about how “the activities” come to cease:

 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.  

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146; emphasis added)

 

From something I'm writing for my own site:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration.
 

What stage is appropriate, is a function of the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention.
 

Shunryu Suzuki said:
 

To enjoy our life-- complicated life, difficult life-- without ignoring it, and without being caught by it. Without suffer from it. That is actually what will happen to us after you practice zazen.

 

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco)

I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my complicated, difficult daily life I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom.

 

"The free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath" is "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" (which from Gautama's statements, up top, is "the cessation of ['determinate thought' in] inbreathing and outbreathing).

 

I know that while my father, the Sakyan, was ploughing, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, I entered on the first meditation, which is accompanied by initial thought and discursive thought, is born of aloofness, and is rapturous and joyful, and while abiding therein, I thought: ‘Now could this be a way to awakening?’ Then, following on my mindfulness, Aggivissana, there was the consciousness: This is itself the Way to awakening. This occurred to me, Aggivissana: ‘Now, am I afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind?’ This occurred to me…: I am not afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind.’
 

(MN 1 246-247, Vol I pg 301)

 

 

 

For me, it's all about necessity, actualized through the point of interface between waking and sleeping.  

I'm not sure how that fits in the categories you listed, Maddie.  In a way it's staying alive to particular senses (equanimity in the vestibulars, gravity in the otoliths, placement in the proprioceptors, and spatial orientation in the eyes), so more physical than spiritual, except where the interface depends on a compassion that extends to the other side of the wall (and beyond).  The extension of compassion, out of necessity.

not yer grandpa's broom!
a new thread sweeps clean, but where'd
everybody go?

7 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

 

But why would this be enlightenment.

 

It's a different neurological state ( see the medium article I linked up ), caused by unknown/not studied physiological responses.

Why would this bear any notion of enlightenment.

Enlightenment ( under any reasonable definition ) will probably have its own neurological states but to me kundalini/tummo sounds exactly like "cart before the horse".

 

The idea I've heard too is as you describe it but those who described the idea to me didn't seem enlightened nor did anyone who I consider to have reached a level of realisation ever practiced tummo regularly.

 

So to me it doesn't sound like tummo creates enlightenment. I mean, why would it..

 

For some people at least though it does seem like it can be dangerous.

 

Taking a risk for no obvious reward imo is simply not worth it.
 

Tummo is listed as one of the practices Tilopa learned (Wikipedia)--tummo, along with five other practices, learned from various gurus throughout India.  Tilopa was 11th century C. E. (988–1069).

Also from WIkipedia, under "kundalini etymology", I learn:  
 

The concept of Kuṇḍalinī is mentioned in the Upanishads (9th – 7th centuries BCE). The Sanskrit adjective kuṇḍalin means "circular, annular". It is mentioned as a noun for "snake" (in the sense of "coiled") in the 12th-century Rajatarangini chronicle (I.2). Kuṇḍa (a noun meaning "bowl, water-pot" is found as the name of a Nāga (serpent deity) in Mahabharata 1.4828). The 8th-century Tantrasadbhava Tantra uses the term kundalī, glossed by David Gordon White as "she who is ring-shaped".
 

The use of kuṇḍalī as a name for Goddess Durga (a form of Shakti) appears often in Tantrism and Shaktism from as early as the 11th century in the Śaradatilaka. It was adopted as a technical term in Hatha yoga during the 15th century, and became widely used in the Yoga Upanishads by the 16th century. Eknath Easwaran has paraphrased the term as "the coiled power", a force which ordinarily rests at the base of the spine, described as being "coiled there like a serpent".

 

Sounds like not a term used in combination with yoga until the 1400's, a johnny-come-lately in the world of spiritual practices.  Not a practice Tilopa learned in the 11th century, and he studied under many.

Might have to do with:

This study (research by Indahl, A., et al.) established that the ligamento-muscular reflex existed between the sacroiliac joint and muscles that attach to the bones that make up the sacroiliac joint. (The study’s authors) suggested that the sacroiliac joint was a regulator of pelvic and paraspinal muscles and, thereby, influences posture and lumbar segmental stability.

(Serola Biomechanics website summary of Indahl, A., et al., Sacroiliac joint involvement in activation of the porcine spinal and gluteal musculature. Journal of Spinal Disorders, 1999. 12(4): p. 325-30; https://europepmc.org/article/med/10451049
https://www.serola.net/research-category/the-nutation-lesion-2/ligamento-muscular-reflex/)

 

The ligaments of the sacroiliac joints have to stretch to allow rotation of the sacrum on the pelvis for a natural birth, if I understand correctly.  Implying there are mechanisms controlling the stretch of ligaments between the pelvis and the sacrum that are not employed in the normal routine of daily life, but which can be brought into play out of necessity.  And from the above, affect the pelvic and paraspinal muscles and the whole of posture or carriage.

 

 

14 hours ago, Gerard said:

You cure nothing like that with herbs.

 

You actually prevent that by doing this:

 

 

And before you are able to do that start by practising all the countless exercises He Jinghan has skilfully designed after 50 years of Ba Gua and Tai Chi practice. 
 

All readily available on his YouTube channel. 

The name of this 'cure' is called:

 

GROUNDING. 
 

On a daily basis as if you brush your teeth. 
 

That is one of the most beautiful displays of physical mastery I've ever seen.  Straight at it, no distractions.

What, exactly, is he doing.  Possibly:
 

The rest of the scales (I've been practicing) are looking for a grip where attention takes place in the body, as “one-pointedness” turns and engenders a counter-turn (without losing the freedom of movement of attention); finding ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine through relaxation, and calming the stretch of ligaments; and discovering hands, feet, and teeth together with “one-pointedness" (“bite through here”, as Yuanwu advised; “then we can walk together hand in hand”, as Yuanwu’s teacher Wu Tsu advised). 

If I can find a way to experience gravity in the placement of attention as the source of activity in my posture, and particular ligaments as the source of the reciprocity in that activity, then I have an ease.

 

 

The scales of seated meditation, but I think the instructor here is adept at the last one while standing, and the incorporation of a sense of gravity.  He takes it down the spine, and makes gravity do the jumping. 

Good luck duplicating that, without decades of training or talent surpassing mere mortals.

Gerard, can you point me to a video of him just doing the form?



 

On 1/9/2024 at 7:54 AM, old3bob said:

 

give some examples or sayings along this line if you are inclined to do so:

 

"to whom much is given much is expected"

"be careful what you wish for, you might just get it"

too much of a good thing gone awry

"don't bite off more than you can chew"

"The truth will set you free"

"I had it and I lost it"

 

 

 

"A little learning is a dangerous thing"--Alexander Pope, 1774

"Some minds are like concrete.  All mixed up and permanently set."--attributed to Alfred E. Neuman

 

"I'm positive."--Larry Fine
"Only fools are positive"--Moe Howard
"Are you sure?"--Larry Fine

"I'm positive."--Moe Howard
 

 

On 1/9/2024 at 2:17 PM, Nungali said:

" Knowledge "  .... if it is based on or replicates a process in nature  = asset .

 

If it isn't based on that its probably some aberrant human head trip  =  burden .

 

 

..... what does duck look like without the dog mask  ?  

 

 

 

 

Can't say you didn't ask for it!
 

 

21 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

In my experience point of focus doesn't really matter that much, as long as it is narrow.

It's fully possible to get a stable Nimitta when doing the Zen variant of meditation on breath with abdominal breathing and the awareness being there.

 

The way I used the term point of focus above, is such that I mean a spatial point, eg nostrils.

When breathing stops and a stable Nimitta appears the focus is there but "there" not a real spatial point in the 3D space around us, we still have one pointedness.

Or in the four immeasurables, for those who specialise in that and do enter deep states from these medications, there's no really a spatial point of focus.

 

I don't think we can be in Samatha states during the day btw, unless it's a day dedicated to meditation. Eg when we work we're typically in beta brainwaves, in Samatha meditations we're at gamma ( not theta as stated in some books, theta is common in other types of meditation ).

Eg I don't see how I could be in gamma while delivering for work, Samatha is also calming, while work typically requires some degree of alertness.

 

Samatha and Insight are not really in competition. They're both needed but Samatha in isolation cannot reveal eg the impermanent nature of thoughts, feelings and phenomena, nor how they link to each other, which is why the historical Buddha developed Insight meditation.

It's also important to note that ecstatic states from Samatha are also impermanent and there should be no clinging to them as well.

 

In the Anapanasati the first steps are Samatha, so that the mind calms, slows down, then insight follows. It's not really a requirement to first reach one of the four Jhana states linked to Samatha before starting insight meditation.

 

 

This is the way a good teacher is invaluable, not because there are secret teachings in Theravada ( there aren't), nor because of Guru-type of relationships which don't exist in Theravada, nor because of direct mind transmissions.

It's simply because a teacher can be so far ahead that they can save huge amounts of time simply because they know so much.

You're sold on teachers, I get it. 

I do think there is a physical component to the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) the activity of the body in inbreathing and outbreathing, a component that can be conveyed by the physical presence of a teacher.  I don't think all teachers, especially in the West, are living in such a way as to convey that, but I have met teachers who were.

 

Quote

The way I used the term point of focus above, is such that I mean a spatial point, eg nostrils.

When breathing stops and a stable Nimitta appears the focus is there but "there" not a real spatial point in the 3D space around us, we still have one pointedness.

Or in the four immeasurables, for those who specialise in that and do enter deep states from these medications, there's no really a spatial point of focus.
 

Here's Gautama's description of the fifth limb of concentration, the survey-sign (nimitta?):

 

Again, the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. … just as someone might survey another, standing might survey another sitting, or sitting might survey another lying down; even so the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight.

 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19)

 

When the "survey-sign" was spoken of, it was spoken of immediately after the description of the fourth concentration, the fourth limb of concentration.  I believe it was a way to return to cessation in inbreathing and outbreathing in the four elements of the mindfulness of states of mind:

 

(One) makes up one’s mind:
 

Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out.

Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe in. Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe out.

Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out.

Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe in. Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe out.

 

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V pg 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward; masculine pronouns replaced, re-paragraphed; ;emphasis added)

 

 

As to a lack of one-pointedness in the further states, how then would those states be a part of right concentration?
 

And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments?  It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness.  Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments.
 

(MN III 71, Pali Text Society vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added)

 

 

The path of the arahant is ten-fold instead of eight-fold, meaning that path includes the elements above as well as right knowledge and right freedom, but I don't believe the nature of right concentration changes.

You said, "I mean a spatial point, eg nostrils."  I mean a spatial point too, when I say "one-pointedness", just that the spatial point I'm referring to is the place that necessity places attention,  in the movement of breath.  As I wrote in my last post, on my own site:

 

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

I would say that everybody experiences "one-pointedness" right before they fall asleep, if they can retain the presence of mind long enough.  You said, "'there (is) not a real spatial point in the 3D space around us, we still have one pointedness"--I would say there is a sense of place, a singular sense of the location of awareness.  No object.  There can be a sense of gravity at that place, too--no surprise, as the otoliths are inside the vestibulars.

 

 

9 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

The Parimukha is front of the face, not front in general. Mukha is face/mouth. So containing the only source to Anapasati, the chest area is still excluded.

 

Imo even taking Anapasati in isolation it's sufficient, as it's impossible to feel the breath in other places in the front of the face but other Pali texts are even more detailed.

 

I see from your response that Bhikkhu Thanissaro assigns a different interpretation, all I can say is that I fully trust the interpretation of the senior Theravada monastic who teaches me.

So here I guess each will trust the sources they trust and their translation/interpretation, so you we'll agree to disagree on this.
 

 

I bear in mind that there have been many changes in the interpretations of the teaching, even in the Theravadin tradition.  In the end, I'm going with:
 

Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves. Be ye a refuge unto yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth. Look not for refuge to any one besides yourselves. And how… is (one) to be a lamp unto (oneself), a refuge unto (oneself), betaking (oneself) to no external refuge, holding fast to the Truth as a lamp, holding fast as a refuge to the Truth, looking not for refuge to any one besides (oneself)?
 

Herein, … (one) continues, as to the body, so to look upon the body that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. [And in the same way] as to feelings… moods… ideas, (one) continues so to look upon each that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world.
 

(Digha Nikaya ii 100, Pali Text Society DN Vol. II pg 108)

 

 

Quote

 

By point of focus, I refer to point of focus of the first four steps of the Anapanasati, the Samatha part of it as this is the part where the question of having the awareness on nostrils/upper lip vs hara is mostly relevant.
 

 

 

Isn't the question really the meaning of "one-pointedness", of "one-pointedness of mind"?  That's the consistent thing in the four initial  concentrations, in my reading, and in my practice these days.

 

Quote

 

You open some new and interesting points but today unfortunately I don't have much time, so in short,
 

 

 

I'll wait, then! 

 

 

Quote

 

- re sleep, Samatha before sleep is a good practice. Eg In dream & sleep yogas ( these are not Theravada practices ) it is common to include a Samatha meditation step.

 

- re bridging conscious to our subconscious and unconscious. In my view that's the most important aspect of meditation. Most meditations do that to some extent, insight meditation does this more so than others. Samatha ( which pre-existed the historical Buddha) is not enough for this and hence the historical Buddha provided us with his insight meditation.
 

I don't practice sleep or dream yogas, I just look to fall into one-pointedness of mind as I am waking up or falling asleep.

The thing about insight meditation--how exactly is a person supposed to see the chain of dependent causation for themselves, without experiencing the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) feeling and perceiving?  And to do that, is to have arrived at the concentration that eluded Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta (Gautama's teachers), and which required the supremely talented Gautama the Shakyan six years under the Bodhi tree--right?  

I do see that action of the "consciousness-informed body" is possible, without "determinate thought".  From that, I have an appreciation for the illusory nature of identifications of self in the five groups, but I can't claim to have cut off the hindrances like cutting off a palm tree at the stump, and I can't claim to have the perfect wisdom of insight into dependent causation.

I only have enough to appreciate Gautama's way of living, mindfulness in the four arisings, which I believe involved regular experience of the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation.
 

I don't hear anybody teaching that.  Maybe they're teaching it, but not in so many words?
 

a high school friend said:

this poem has no marked foot
--fell out of my seat...

On 12/20/2023 at 9:35 PM, whocoulditbe? said:

 

they will get stuck there,

all those vain thoughts, in my chest,

that were never meant.
 

that were never meant,
those vain thoughts were never meant
not worth the penny
 

On 1/1/2024 at 1:13 PM, snowymountains said:

 

In the Anapanassati Sutta, the Buddha mentions the Parimukha. The Parimukha ( nostrils or upper lip ) is discussed in the Pali Canon, you can look at jhana-vibhango, 537.

 

The choice between nostrils or upper lip depends on where the meditators feels the breath most.

Off - Sutta ( but common sense ): This ultimately depends a lot on the shape of the nose

 

Also the reference to the "whole body" is a reference to the whole body of the breath/the totality of the breath, not our physical body.

 

Not a big fan of the quoted translation but no need to eat a hat either.

 

Btw, in Zen the emphasis on the Hara probably is older than Dogen, don't know its exact origin though. As there's no "Canon" for all lineages in Zen, the emphasis on the Hara can only be an practical remark on what is commonly taught, not a universal rule.

 

Imho the point of focus chosen by the historical Buddha is probably the best ( but not the only one ).

 

But at the end of the day, any point is ok, as long as it produces a stable Nimitta.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the dialogue, snowymountains.

In the Anapanassati Sutta, the Buddha mentions the Parimukha. The Parimukha ( nostrils or upper lip ) is discussed in the Pali Canon, you can look at jhana-vibhango, 537.
 

From the footnotes on Thanissaro Bhikkyu's translation of Anapanasati:

 

To the fore (parimukham): The Abhidhamma takes an etymological approach to this term, defining it as around (pari-) the mouth (mukham). In the Vinaya, however, it is used in a context (Cv.V.27.4) where it undoubtedly means the front of the chest. There is also the possibility that the term could be used idiomatically as "to the front," which is how I have translated it here.

 

I don't accept the interpretations of the authors of the Abhidhamma, they don't match what's actually taught in the sermons of the first four Nikayas, in the few cases I've had occasion to examine--like this one.  I'm sticking with the first four Nikayas, which are considered to be the most historically accurate (by A. K. Warder in his "indian Buddhism" and I believe others).  

In Thanissaro's translation of Anapanasati (and I. B. Horner's translation for the Pali Text Society is very similar), the sentence reads:

There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.

(https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html)

 

 

I think there may be prediliction among Southeast Asian Theravadins to teach a focus on the nostrils or the upper lip.  Anapansati is all about setting mindfulness to the fore, is it not?  

No toast for Mark, and I could almost taste it, ha ha!
 

Also the reference to the "whole body" is a reference to the whole body of the breath/the totality of the breath, not our physical body.

 

Absolutely right.  Horner goes so far as to translate "whole (breath-)body".

I'm certain you're right about the emphasis on the hara predating Rujing.  Not sure there are references to it in Dogen.  I wonder about where teachings that emphasized the hara first showed up in Asia---maybe Shaolin?
 

"... the point of focus chosen by the historical Buddha..."

 

Unclear to me what you're referring to as "the point of focus".  Gautama did speak of "one-pointedness", and of "one-pointedness of mind", and indeed he asserted that "one-pointedness of mind" was the fundamental characteristic of concentration:
 

And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments?  It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness.  Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments.
 

(MN III 71, Pali Text Society vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)

 

 

I would say that "one-pointedness" is more like:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(Common Ground)

 

 

The attention placed by necessity is one-pointed.  I have recommended to friends that they look for the experience right before they fall asleep, and several have reported better success at falling asleep as a result.  For me, "one-pointedness" is also the key to waking up--it's kind of an interface between the unconscious and consciousness, and can be the source of the activity of the body:
 

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”.

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)
 

 

 

On 12/31/2023 at 1:47 AM, snowymountains said:

 

Btw the historical Buddha as per Pali Canon taught breathing meditation ( meditation on the memory of breath may be more accurate) with either the nostrils or the upper lip as a point of focus.

Breath going in the body is examined in the 4 elements meditation but not in meditation on breath , if you want to meditate per Pali Canon.

 

In Zen however, the focus/point-of-awareness is the Dan Tien.

 

Imo it doesn't matter much, both Theravada and Zen are great meditation traditions
 

If you can quote me a sermon in the first four Nikayas where Gautama mentions the nostrils or the upper lip, I'll eat my hat (which I'm crafting now out of buttered toast).

Here are the four elements of the mindfulness of the body, that were a part of Gautama's way of living:
 

… Setting mindfulness in front of (oneself), (one) breathes in mindfully and mindfully breathes out.
 

As (one) draws in a long breath (one) knows: A long breath I draw in. [As (one) breathes out a long breath (one) knows: I breathe out a long breath.] As (one) draws in a short breath (one) knows: A short breath I draw in. As (one) breathes out a short breath (one) knows: I breathe out a short breath.
 

Thus (one) makes up (one’s) mind:
 

I shall breathe in, feeling it go through the whole body. Feeling it go through the whole body I shall breath out.
 

Calming down the bodily aggregate I shall breathe in. Calming down the bodily aggregate I shall breathe out.

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward; masculine pronouns replaced, re-paragraphed)

 

 

I'm wondering why you say this is meditation on the memory of breath?

The emphasis on the hara, or the tanden (dan t'ien), came later, as with Dogen's teacher Rujing:

 

Breath enters and reaches the tanden, and yet there is no place from which it comes. Therefore it is neither long nor short. Breath emerges from the tanden, and yet there is nowhere it goes. Therefore it is neither short nor long.

 

(“Eihei Koroku (Dogen's Extensive Record)" vol. 5, #390, trans. Okumura)

 

I would disagree with your assessment that "In Zen... , the focus/point-of-awareness is the Dan Tien".  I would say:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(Common Ground)

 

 

Happens that attention can come to be consistently placed at a point in the lower abdomen.  Nevertheless, the free placement of attention engendered out of necessity in the movement of breath is innate:

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:
 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.
 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

I read a few Cliff Notes in high school.  Lucky to have passed those English classes, and I had no idea how to write until I undertook to write for my own edification.  So I'll be passing on the famous and probably wonderful Russian masterpiece, thanks liminal_luke--nonfiction for me, I'm afraid.

 

thelearner--I took HTML and CSS at a local junior college in 2009, along with PHP.  Was a wonderful experience, except for the midterm in the PHP class, where we were free to consult the web and I discovered most of the questions were based on some online material that was not so simple.  The instructor expected people to finish in an hour, and I was at the library 3+ hours, although part of it was composing the complaint to the instructor with links.  The final was much better.  

I wrote my own blog in PHP, which I transitioned to a WordPress site a few years back (why maintain for new PHP versions when WordPress does it for me, and looks better to boot).  Javascript is the other necessity, and I learned that as part of a team that built the basic math tutorial software for the same college.  Our team leader, the genius of the squad, elected to use the Angular framework (there are two main frameworks, Angular from Google and React from Facebook), though now I hear he inclines more to just basic Javacript.  I inclined that way from the start--why add to the difficulty in understanding the code by layering someone else's idea of the right way to do things on top of it!  One hour to write the code, six hours to read it when revisited,--that's what they say.

 

I recently started doing some Xing Yi exercises again, as outlined in "Xing Yi Nei Gong", compiled and edited by Miller and Cartnell. I hope I can continue that in the New Year, I used to do them daily, and I feel better when I do. 

And scales on the guitar.  A friend organizes her practice by doing the minor scale from a chosen note (say C minor), the the major (C major), then the minor of that major (A minor), and so  on through four beginning scale notes.  Next day she starts a step higher, and by the end of her practice on the third day she's done all 12 starting notes.  I appreciate the approach, and hope I can keep at it and not get discouraged at my own disorganization, as I have in the past.

I hope that I can carry forward an organization of my practice, on the cushion and on the dance floor, that is relatively new to me.  The ability to stay awake as necessity places attention from moment to moment requires only a return to the freedom of that attention to take place anywhere in the body.  All the same, finding ease in the experience, and then abandoning ease to cease "doing something" altogether, requires a lot of sleep!  At least for me.  Not like the monks in China before 1950, who got up at 3:30am, were permitted to sleep sitting up during the 6am sitting, took a nap at 4pm, and went on to 10:30p every night.  Like my cat, they were sleeping after every meal.

Happy New Year, All!

correction--reading again the description of the monks' day in "The Practice of Chinese Buddhism 1900-1950", by Holmes Welch, I find that breakfast was after the sitting where monks were permitted to sleep (5:15am), and the afternoon nap (4p-6p) was two hours after the lunch (2p).  Also sounds like the main meal of the day was after a 90-minute sitting period at 6pm--since the monks remained seated for the meal, long time in at least a half-lotus (Burmese was not permitted).  Seven periods of sitting and running, through the course of a day, except in sesshin weeks, when the monks only got night-time sleep between 1am and 3am.

These times were apparently the standard at model monasteries, others might be more relaxed.
 

 

 

On 9/22/2023 at 7:08 AM, Daniel said:

 

... the plural for enlightements.  It seems reasonable to me that enlightenment should be plural.  Each person is different, and has different capabilities, talents, flaws, etc.  From this, I think it follows that there would be different types of enlightenment.

 

Would you, or others, please elaborate on this?  What are different types of enlightenment?  Do they always follow a progession which is known?  Are there different types of enlightement which are attained by different schools?  Any additional details shared would be appreciated.

 

I don't think it's straightforward.  

Gautama taught initial and further meditative states, particular states in a particular order.  "Determinate thought", or volition, in action ceased in some of these states.  In particular, volition in speech ceased in the first, volition in inhalation and exhalation (and activity of the body generally) ceased in the fourth, and volition in feeling and perceiving (activity of the mind) ceased in the last.
 

Here's the thing--Gautama taught the four truths, and you could say insight into the four truths was his enlightenment.  Presumably that insight arrived with the cessation of "determinate thought" in feeling and perceiving, yet he never makes the connection explicit.

 

How does a person go about ceasing willful action, abandoning intent, relinquishing deliberation in such a fashion as to bring about the meditative states, and in particular the cessation of "determinate thought" in speech, body, and mind?

By means of lack of desire, said Gautama; whatever you think a particular meditative state to be, he said, it is otherwise.

With the attainment of the ceasing of ("determinate thought" in) feeling in perceiving, presumably it's apparent that the exercise of will or intent results in a persistence of consciousness, which in turn results in a stationing of consciousness, which results in a recurrence of consciousness.  An identification of self with the body, the feelings, the mind, the habitual activities, or the mental states accompanies the recurrence of consciousness, and Gautama taught that such identification is suffering.  That insight was apparently his enlightenment.

It's my opinion, which I've expressed before, that most of what passes for enlightenment is the attainment of the cessation of "determinate thought" in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, and the ability to incorporate that cessation in a mindfulness of body, feelings, thought, and mental states so as to constitute a way of living.  That was Gautama's way of living "most of the time", something he said was "perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living besides".

Kodo Sawaki:  gain is delusion, loss is enlightenment. 

Hakuin, on how his enlightenment made him ill, and he was healed by the "butter" meditation:

https://buddhismnow.com/2015/09/12/zen-sickness-by-zen-master-hakuin/

12th century Chinese teacher Foyan on Zen sicknesses:
 

In my school, there are only two kinds of sickness.  One is to go looking for a donkey riding on the donkey.  The other is to be unwilling to dismount once having mounted the donkey.
 

… Once you have recognized the donkey, to mount it and be unwilling to dismount is the sickness that is most difficult to treat.  I tell you that you need not mount the donkey; you are the donkey!
 

(“Instant Zen:  Waking Up in the Present”, tr T. Cleary, Shambala p 4; I have an explanation, here)

 

 

 

On 12/14/2023 at 8:39 AM, Maddie said:

I thought I would make a thread where if anyone has questions about TCM or acupuncture they can feel free to ask. I am a licensed acupuncturist. 

 

*nothing I say constitutes a doctor patient relationship. 
 

 

 

That was interesting, about a relationship between needles at particular points in the fascia and proximal nerves.

I wonder if there could be a relationship between dermatomes and acupuncture points.


 

18 hours ago, Maddie said:

Delusion

 

 

 

I couldn't get past his opening statements.

"Ignorance is something that is overcome in school, studying books", he said, or something to that effect.  So he prefers delusion as the first element of the chain of causal conditions.

My view is that the ignorance at the head of the causal chain is the ignorance of "things as it is", as Shunryu Suzuki put it:

 

In a word, Zen is the teaching or practice to see “things as it is” or to accept “things as it is” and to raise things as it goes. This is the fundamental purpose of our practice and meaning of Zen. But it is, actually, rather difficult to see “things as it is.” 

... The point is to find our position moment after moment, and to live with people moment after moment according to the place is the purpose of our practice.

("Using Various Stones", Shunryu Suzuki; Friday, September 8, 1967; Tassajara)

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

("Genjo Koan", Dogen, tr. Tanahashi)

 

I didn't get past that opening set of statements, in the first video.  The second link in the causal chain as it is usually given is the activities, meaning the habitual or volitive activities, with consciousness as the third link--does he mention that?

 

22 hours ago, whocoulditbe? said:

Imo there are recipes for enlightenment. You wouldn't imagine that the knowledge of a cake recipe alone can create a cake, but it does help. The line drawn between the method we are given and the materials we come with is ultimately imaginary.
 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.
 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

Of course, to have good shikantaza, we have preparatory zazen. You know, from old, old time, you know, we have that technical term, konpunjo. Konpunjo means “to enter,” you know. That is started from Theravada practice, you know. To prepare for the first stage or second stage or third stage, they practice some special practice. Those practice is not the practice of the first stage or second stage or third stage, but to prepare for those stages.
 

(70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza, “question and answer”)

 

 

I can describe the practices of the first four stages, based on my own experience, and I can give links to the posts I've written that include Gautama's instructions.  That's as you say, whocoulditbe?, cake recipes--they've been very helpful to me. "Preparatory practices".  I would say ChiDragon and Cobie are right that instruction can just get in the way.

From my last post on my own site:
 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:
 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.
 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)