Mark Foote
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Posts posted by Mark Foote
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22 hours ago, Nungali said:Think yerselves lucky ... my brother-in-law informed me that when he worked for Telecom , the 'in' practical joke was to connect 24v up to the stainless steel Men's room urinal trough .
My high school social studies teacher talked about working at a filling station, back in the day, and I guess when the bathroom was occupied guys would go around back and piss on a tin sheet that was back there. He hooked up a coil--should have seen him smile when he recounted the reactions.
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4 hours ago, stirling said:I don't see that being said in those passages, though I would agree that just "being" is, from one conceptual perspective, dependent origination in action since the subject is no longer present in the mix when just "being" is occurring.
And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself. (One) regards that which is not there as empty of it. But in regard to what remains [one] comprehends: 'That being, this is.'
I would say he's talking about "things as it is", to quote Suzuki. One thing to another, cause and effect, right now. An experience, as opposed to an understanding.
Can't say that I've had the experience, though!QuoteI am not concerned with whether or not we are talking about the Buddha's exact intention or words. I don't believe that any of the early Buddhist works are necessarily one person instructions that somehow maintained their fidelity in an oral traditions until someone finally wrote them down 500 years later. It is foolish to believe such a thing or maintain that there is some authenticity there that other works don't have. People commonly can't remember what they have just heard, or fail to notice obvious things in experience all of the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers
https://www.livescience.com/6727-invisible-gorilla-test-shows-notice.html
As far as interpreting the Buddha: There have been countless realized beings since the Buddha, and more appear every day. Any of them might have invaluable insight and be able to teach from prajna.
A. K. Warder in his "Buddhist India" actually goes so far as to attribute the sutta pitaka to Ananda:
The 'doctrine' was first recited by Ananda, who being the Buddha's personal attendant had heard more than anyone else. Kasyapa asked him about all the dialogues, etc., he remembered, and the assembly (at the First Rehearsal) endorsed his versions as correct. The doctrine thus compiled became known as the Sutra Pitaka, the collection of sutras (the term 'pitaka' probably signifies a 'tradition' of a group of texts).
(2nd ed., p 200)
... in Ceylon, at least, in the Sthaviravada School, it is recorded that the monks were organised into groups specializing in each of the agamas or the Vinaya or the Abhidharma, handing these texts down to their pupils and so maintaining the tradition. In fact even ten years after his full 'entrance' into the community, a monk was expected to know, besides part of the Vinaya obligatory for all, only a part, usually about a third, of his agama, and these basic texts are pointed out in the Vinaya.
(ibid, p 206)Ok, apparently that's accepted history in the Theravadin tradition, not just Warder.
A quick online search doesn't immediately confirm Ananda's eidetic memory, but I found:
From section 3.2 of the book "The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts" by Bhikkhu Sujato & Bhikkhu Brahmali:
For several hundred years, from the time that separate transmission lineages emerged in the Asokan period until the texts were written down, the EBTs (Early Buddhist Texts) were passed down orally in separate textual lineages. Comparative studies have shown that this oral transmission was highly reliable and that the core doctrinal material was essentially unchanged. How did this work, given what we know about the unreliability of memory? Indian culture provided the template for highly reliable oral preservation. It is known that the Ṛg Veda and other Vedic texts were transmitted orally—that is, by memory—with extreme accuracy for over two thousand years.
A modern instance of eidetic (photographic) memory in the Order:
In 1985, the Guinness Book of Records recorded the sayadaw (Mingun_Sayadaw) as a record holder in the Human memory category. The exact entry was Human memory: Bhandanta Vicitsara (sic) recited 16,000 pages of Buddhist canonical text in Rangoon, Burma in May 1954. Rare instances of eidetic memory -- the ability to project and hence "visually" recall material-- are known to science.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mingun_Sayadaw)
You're right, lots can happen when texts are handed down orally. I'm satisfied that the voice in most of the first four Nikayas is unique and consistent, and that the content of those sermons regarding mindfulness and concentration have no counterpart in any of the other religious literature of the world.
Quote19 hours ago, Mark Foote said:
These states are not an end in and of themselves, unlike what the Buddha’s two teachers had taught him shortly after he’d left home to begin his spiritual quest.
I assume this is a Brassington quote? I am abundantly sure that Brassington teaches from a particular set of reference materials. That they don't match the ones YOU might choose is a shame (see above), but I don't think it has anything to do with the validity of his teachings, qualification to teach, or his knowledge and experience of the jhanas.
Yes, a Brassington quote.
I don't think you're going to find anything in the first four Nikayas that supports his account of the history, or his opinion about the concentrations, no matter whose translation you use.
QuoteIt IS difficult to explain "one-pointedness". Why? Because you would be free of thought, which takes some training. This is why is not a factor in the 1st jhana, which is not formless. You also need a teacher that can verify or experience.
I grant you, that there are sermons in the first four Nikayas that associate "one-pointedness" with the second concentration, instead of the first. I did find something that seems clear on the topic:
“And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments? It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness. Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments.”
(Pali Text Society, MN III 71vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)
That would say that if right concentration exists, "one-pointedness" exists.
Thought "initial and sustained" is a characteristic of the first concentration. That would say that thought and "one-pointedness" are not mutually exclusive.
Gautama described his way of living, before and after enlightenment, as sixteen thoughts initial and sustained, each in connection with an inhalation or an exhalation. He claimed that such an "intent concentration on inbreathing and outbreathing" was his way of living "most of the time" and especially in the rainy season.
He also said that at the end of his discourses, he returned to "that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide (Pali Text Society MN I 249, vol I p 303)".
I would therefore surmise that he spent most of his time in the first concentration (since it's the only one with thought initial and sustained), but the "contemplation of cessation" in his thought initial and sustained, particularly in connection with a particular inbreath or outbreath, allows for a return to the fourth concentration when circumstances warrant (by means of the "survey-sign" of the concentration).Tell me now, who is teaching these things?
QuoteWhat Koun Franz is talking about is not one-pointedness. Moving awareness around is interesting, but an activity of the mind. Deep absorptions like "one-pointedness" are not activities of the mind.
How in the world did you get that Koun Franz is "moving awareness around" from what he said?
One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one.
I'll agree that "one-pointedness" is not an activity of the mind, not an habitual or volitive activity of the mind.
QuoteFranz recommends this as an experiment, not a central practice. Is it possible that, in moving your awareness around you might realize that awareness doesn't reside behind your eyes, but is actually wherever attention is and become enlightened? Sure! But it isn't a tool that gets emphasized for a reason. The Buddha, for example, doesn't recommend it, as far as I am aware. BTW, if this IS a practice that appeals to you, you should check out Loch Kelly's book "Shift Into Freedom" which is heavy on exercises where you move awareness around in space and "unhook" it from the mental thought processes.
I think you make an excellent point there, when you say that "awareness doesn't reside behind your eyes". The eyes have a particularly strong connection to the part of the brain concerned with equalibrioception, graviception, and proprioception, and they can reset the sense of location. I would say that's why most people feel that their consciousness, the consciousness they associate with "I am", resides in the head behind the eyes.
"... you might realize that awareness doesn't reside behind your eyes, but is actually wherever attention is and become enlightened?"--
Let the mind be present without an abode.("Diamond Sutra", tr. Venerable Master Hsing Yun, from “The Rabbit’s Horn: A Commentary on the Platform Sutra”, Buddha’s Light Publishing p 60)
Loch Kelly could be talking about "making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness", hard to say. Doubt he gets into what comes next, though!
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15 hours ago, old3bob said:Btw. 220 with very little amperage flow can easily kill someone, same with 115 to a lesser extent !?
I got across 300 vdc once and it could have easily killed me, it felt like i image a javelin going all the way threw my chest would feel !! Oh, and don't get downfield when track and field folks are throwing javelins.
I sympathize, old3bob!
DC, froze you to the contact? -
Why do we love Dao Bums. This page, and the last part of the previous.
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15 minutes ago, Nungali said:
'Authority meters' ?
This one has a probe
That's a beauty.
Back in the high school electronics lab, we used to sneak up behind our classmates while they were working on their power supplies, and give a shout. 220, knock 'em off the stool!We didn't become experts in electronics, just in 220v.
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21 hours ago, stirling said:Give it a try! Free instruction on the first one or two:
https://www.lionsroar.com/entering-the-jhanas/
From the article:
The jhanas are eight altered states of consciousness, brought on via concentration, each yielding more concentration than the previous. As you pass through the jhanas, you stair-step your way to deeper and deeper levels of concentration—that is, you become less and less likely to become distracted. Upon emerging from the jhanas—preferably the fourth or higher—you begin doing an insight practice with your jhanically concentrated, indistractable mind. This is the heart of the method the Buddha discovered. These states are not an end in and of themselves, unlike what the Buddha’s two teachers had taught him shortly after he’d left home to begin his spiritual quest. They are simply a way of preparing your mind so you can more effectively examine reality and discover the deeper truths that lead to liberation.
So:
Upon emerging from the jhanas—preferably the fourth or higher—you begin doing an insight practice with your jhanically concentrated, indistractable mind. This is the heart of the method the Buddha discovered.
Gautama's enlightenment is associated with his attainment of "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving." Here's his account, from the sermon "Emptiness (Lesser)":
... not attending to the perception of the plane of no-thing, not attending to the perception of the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, [one] attends to solitude grounded on the concentration of mind that is signless. [One's] mind is satisfied with, pleased with, set on and freed in the concentration of mind that is signless. [One] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind that is signless is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself. (One) regards that which is not there as empty of it. But in regard to what remains [one] comprehends: 'That being, this is.' Thus, Ananda, this comes to be for [such a one] a true, not mistaken, utterly purified and incomparably highest realization of emptiness.
(Pali Text Society MN III vol. III 108-109, p 151-2; bracketed replaces gendered nouns/pronouns; translator's parenthetical omitted)
"That being, this is". In a nutshell, dependent origination in action.
I don't read that as "upon emerging from the jhanas... you begin doing an insight practice", do you?
These states are not an end in and of themselves, unlike what the Buddha’s two teachers had taught him shortly after he’d left home to begin his spiritual quest.
So far as I know, Gautama only speaks of his two teachers in the sermon "The (Noble) Quest" (Woodward gave "The Aryan Quest" but more recent translators believe the meaning could be construed as "noble"). He says:
... after a time (I), being young, my hair coal-black, possessed of radiant youth, in the prime of my life--although my unwilling parents wept and wailed--having cut my hair and beard, put on yellow robes, went forth from the home into homelessness. I, being gone forth for the incomparable, matchless path to peace, approached Alara the Kalama...
Then follows the story of his mastery of what Alara the Kalama taught (the futher state of the infinity of no-thing), of Alara's request of him to stay and help teach, and of Gautama's dissatisfaction and departure. That's repeated for his second teacher, Uddaka, Rama's son (who taught the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception). Then Gautama said:
Then I, ... a quester for whatever is good, searching for the incomparable, matchless course to peace, walking on tour through Magadha in due course arrived at Uruvela, the camp township. There I saw a delightful stretch of land and a lovely woodland grove, and a clear flowing river with a delightful ford, and a village for support nearby.
He speaks of attaining nibbana, of the difficulty he expected in teaching the dhamma, of the appearance of Brahma Sahampati who appealed to him to teach, and of his decision to do so. He thought first to return to his two teachers, but realized they had both passed away. Then:
I saw with deva-vision, purified and surpassing that of men, the group of five monks staying near Benares at Isipatana in the deer-park.
After awhile, he proceeded there, and they gave him a hard time but eventually decided to give it a whirl. He taught them the concentrations from the first four through the final "cessation of feeling and perceiving". There's no mention in the sermon of any insight training.
The years he spent as an ascetic are mentioned elsewhere, but not here. That must have been between his home-leaving and his study with Alara, but he doesn't mention those years in this sermon, the only sermon where he talks about Alara and Uddaka (so far as I know).
I would say Leigh is pulling rabbits out of his hat, with his history and his notion of the relationship between the concentrations and insight. He is in good company, most of Theravadin Asia appears to have accepted the notion that concentration and insight come separately. I don't find it so, in the first four Nikayas--insight is a byproduct of concentration.
The principal difficulty in explaining the concentrations is "one-pointedness of mind". That's a universal of concentration according to Gautama, and it has to be experienced. You've read Koun Franz's offering on the subject in my writings before:
Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’.
The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one.( “No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site
https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/)And in my writing:
There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
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23 hours ago, Salvijus said:Your identity can either go to zero, or it can go to infinity.
I'll guess that by "identity can go to zero", you mean something like:
And again … a good [person], by passing quite beyond the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, enters on and abides in the stopping of perception and feeling; and when [such a person] has seen by means of wisdom [their] cankers are caused to be destroyed. And… this [person] does not imagine [his or her self] to be aught or anywhere or in anything.
(Pali Text Society MN III 42-45, Vol III pg 92-94; emphasis added)
And that by "(your identity) can go to infinity", you mean something like:
(77) Jesus said: I am the Light that is above them all, I am the All, the All came forth from Me and the All attained to Me. Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there; lift up the stone and you will find Me there.
(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, p 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill)
That identity "gone to infinity" should be there, when wood is cleaved or a stone lifted, right?
QuoteIf your identity goes to zero, you take absolutely zero responsibility for anything (detachment) .
I can see where you might think that. In Gautama's way of living, detachment appears in a particular context--here are four thoughts initial and sustained that Gautama claimed were the arising of mindfulness with regard to the mind in his way of living:
Aware of mind I shall breathe in. Aware of mind I shall breathe out.
(One) makes up one’s mind:
Gladdening my mind I shall breathe in. Gladdening my mind I shall breathe out.
Composing my mind I shall breathe in. Composing my mind I shall breathe out.
Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out.
(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward; masculine pronouns replaced, re-paragraphed)
You may have been thinking of "dispassion", that appears in the thoughts initial and sustained with regard to the state of mind:(One) makes up one’s mind:
Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out.
Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe in. Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe out.
Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out.
Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe in. Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe out.
(ibid)
What's referred to by "dispassion" there is dispassion with regard to the painful, the pleasant, or the "neither-painful-nor-yet-pleasant". "Cessation" is the cessation of "determinate thought" in action of speech, deed, or mind, not the cessation of action per se but the cessation of habit or volition in action.
QuoteIf your identity goes to infinity, you take the responsibility for everything. (compassion and love)
That will determine if you're a Buddha or a Christ. Both these energies have a role to play in creation.
Something that might interest you--the practice that Gautama associated with some of the further states of concentration:
[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence.
(MN I 38, Pali Text Society Vol I p 48)
The first of the further states was “the infinity of ether”. Gautama identified the state with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of compassion”. The second of the further states (“the infinity of consciousness”) Gautama identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of sympathetic joy”, and the third (“the infinity of nothingness”) he identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of equanimity”.
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42 minutes ago, stirling said:This is an interesting assertion. At face value, I don't think I can agree with you. How about some definitions in plain language on these. What is cessation of in/out breathing, and how is it an attainment? What is the "fifth limb", or a "survey sign". At face value it sounds like you are saying that if we stop breathing we are enlightened, but I am sure this isn't what you are intending to share.
Thanks for that, Stirling.
Suzuki said:
But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.
(“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)
The cessation of "doing something" on the cushion is "just sitting", and "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing".
I've written about that cessation:
Gautama spoke of the “activity” of deed, but when he spoke of the ceasing of the activities, he spoke of the ceasing of “inbreathing and outbreathing”. Even when “determinate thought” is not directly involved in the movement of the diaphragm, actions in the body that are occasioned by “determinate thought” affect the movement of breath, and can leave a residue of habit that further affects the movement of breath. If “activity” in inbreathing and outbreathing has really ceased, then the “determinate thought” that gives rise to “activity” in the body of any kind must likewise have ceased.
“The cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing” is not an actual stoppage of breath. Gautama only spoke about the stoppage of breath once, in a description of the practices he undertook as an ascetic:
So I, Aggivessana, stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears. When I, Aggivessana, had stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears, I came to have very bad headaches… very strong winds cut through my stomach… there came a fierce heat in my body. Although, Aggivessana, unsluggish energy came to be stirred up in me, unmuddled mindfulness set up, yet my body was turbulent, not calmed, because I was harassed in striving by striving against that very pain. But yet, Aggivesana, that painful feeling, arising in me, persisted without impinging on my mind…
(MN I 244-245, Pali Text Society vol I p 298-299)
Stopping the breath in and the breath out did not satisfy Gautama’s quest to “bring to a close the (holy)-faring”. Only after he had abandoned such ascetic practices did he enter the states of concentration, and attain the state that caused him to say, “done is what was to be done”.
Here's Gautama's description of the fourth of the initial concentrations, where "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" takes place, with the follow-on description of the "survey-sign":
Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity… this is fourthly how to make become the five-limbed (noble) right concentration.
Again, the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. … just as someone might survey another, standing might survey another sitting, or sitting might survey another lying down; even so the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. ... this is fifthly how to make become the five-limbed (noble) right concentration.
(Pali Text Society AN III 25-28, Vol. III p 18-19)
When Gautama talks about "the fifth limb of concentration", he's not talking about the first of the further states ("the infinity of ether"). I believe he regularly sat to the fourth concentration, took the survey-sign, and used it to recall the fourth concentration in the thought initial and sustained that made up his way of living.
Regarding the "purity by the pureness of mind" of the fourth concentration, I wrote:
“Pureness of mind” is what remains when “doing something” ceases. When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.
(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)
"Making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of one-pointedness"--then for me, just relax, feel, calm, detach, cease. Rinse and repeat.
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On a forum site I frequent, someone wrote:
Even if you have no identity, you still exist. As what? The spirituality that I follow would say “as existence”, or “as pure consciousness”.
I was reminded of Nisargadatta, a famous teacher who lived in India in the last century:
You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.
(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality]. Mumbai: Zen Publications. ISBN 978-9385902833)
“The consciousness should give attention to itself”—in thirteenth-century Japan, Eihei Dogen wrote:
Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.
(“Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version; tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176)
That’s a poetic way to say “the consciousness should give attention to itself”.
I used to talk about the location of consciousness, but a friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location. As a result, I switched to writing about the placement of attention:
There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
(A Way of Living)
In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote:
When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.
(“Genjokoan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Tanahashi)
Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness. A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.
Dogen continued:
When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…
(ibid)
“When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body.
I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. As a matter of daily life, just to touch on such experience as occasion demands—for me, that’s enough.
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22 hours ago, stirling said:QuoteSudden vs gradual is another point of no consensus.
It is a definition problem. The progress from sotapanna to arhat is gradual, but not because the essential insight has changed or been improved upon... only deepened as the realization of there being no self and other progresses.
If you are looking for clarity, asking if there is more than one real non-dual insight in a "gradual" path would be the salient question.
…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.
(Pali Text Society SN IV 217, vol IV p 146)
Gautama could apparently sit down and run through all the concentrations, all of these cessations, forwards and backwards.
He said:
…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. (Pali Text Society AN III 415, Vol III p 294)
And what are the activities? These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind. These are activities.
(Pali Text Society SN II 3, vol II p 4)
And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.
(Pali Text Society SN IV 145, Vol IV p 85)
As in the first passage I quoted, the ceasing of the activities, of "determinate thought" in action, is gradual, as the induction of the states of concentration is gradual.
The "cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing", that would be the cessation of "determinate thought" in inbreathing and outbreathing--the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the body in inbreathing and outbreathing by which one contacts a certain freedom. I would say that freedom is the free location of consciousness in the body, born of necessity.
There's nothing gradual about the "cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing".
Most of what passes for enlightenment out there is the attainment of the "cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" accompanied by the fifth limb of concentration, the "survey-sign" overview after that cessation. The deepening is the gradual adoption of a mindfulness that allows the experience of the "cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" as a part of every day living.
By Gautama's account, the "cessation of ("determinate thought" in) feeling and perceiving" is also sudden. Gautama's enlightenment, his insight into the nature of suffering, accompanied that cessation.
That's the view I have, from the first four Nikayas of the Pali Cannon and my own practice.
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20 hours ago, old3bob said:um, does that mean you also "don't know", even though often quoting conclusive sounding quote's? Btw traditional Buddhist wording from a thousand+ years ago is sometimes not all that clear too many of us. Although I'd say that some Zen teachings like some parts of Taoism are clearer to me.
I get in trouble when I think I know something, apart from the moment.
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21 hours ago, Apech said:
The two truths doctrine is a fudge to cover inconsistency in Buddhist thinking.
Very popular, especially amongst Buddhists. Good call, Apech!
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7 hours ago, Salvijus said:Believing in those things is not what makes someone a Christ tho.
It is to follow The Way of Life and not the little ways of ego that makes one a Christian.
It is to hold the torch of light and love in all circumstances that makes you a Christ.
"Makes someone a Christ"--"that makes you a Christ".
Makes it sound like you want to become a Christ, or that to become "a Christ" is a Christian goal.
I thought there was only one Christ expected in the Old Testament, and that most Christians aver that Jesus was that one (or is that one).
In the Philippines, there are men who have themselves nailed to a cross, some have been nailed to a cross every year for many years. I'm sure that's not what you meant, but it's unclear to me what you mean. -
1 hour ago, old3bob said:so how does this differ from "not having a view", or an "I don't know"?
getting hung up on rote negation or rote affirmation seems to be the problem to me. also there is no law against the appreciation for life with the historic Buddha saying something about many things of the Earth as being medicines....and with him honoring the Earth Soul/Goddess for her witness.
Ya mean like:
... thinking ‘there is the body’, [one’s] mindfulness is established precisely to the extent necessary just for knowledge, just for remembrance, [and one] fares along independently of and not grasping anything in the world (repeated with regard to feelings, mind, and state of mind).
(MN I 57, Vol I p 73)
One hand to the ground, and one to the heavens.
"I don't know" was Bodhidharma's famous reply to the emperor's question, "Who are you?"
What I've been asking myself all these years is, did Gautama describe real aspects of human nature with regard to concentration (and with regard to the nature of suffering)?
A monk asked Jōshū in all earnestness, “What is the meaning of the patriarch’s coming from the West?” Jōshū said, “The olive tree in Apech's garden.”
("olive tree" for original "oak"; "Apech" for original "the"; translator unknown; "The Gateless Gate" by Ekai, case 37)
Then there's this:
[The bad person] reflects thus: ‘I am an acquirer of the attainment of the first meditation, but these [others] are not acquirers of the attainment of the first meditation.’ [Such a person] then exalts [him or her self] for that attainment of the first meditation and disparages others… But a good (person] reflects thus: ‘Lack of desire even for the attainment of the first meditation has been spoken of by [Gautama]; for whatever (one) imagines it to be, it is otherwise” [Similarly for the second, third, and fourth initial meditative states, and for the attainments of the first four further meditative states].
And again … a good [person], by passing quite beyond the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, enters on and abides in the stopping of perception and feeling; and when [such a person] has seen by means of wisdom [their] cankers are caused to be destroyed. And… this [person] does not imagine [him or her self] to be aught or anywhere or in anything.
(MN III 42-45, Vol III p 92-94)
An open mind is a good thing. -
55 minutes ago, Apech said:That's not what Mark is saying I don't think.
“‘What do you think about this, monks? Is material shape permanent or impermanent?’
‘Impermanent, revered sir.’
‘But is what is impermanent painful or is it pleasant?’
‘Painful, revered sir.’
‘And is it right to regard that which is impermanent, suffering, liable to change as “This is mine, this am I, this is my self”?’
‘No, revered sir (similarly for feeling, perception, the habitual tendencies, and consciousness).’”
(MN III 19-20, Vol III p 69)
Whatever ... is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, [a person], thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling ... perception... the habitual tendencies... whatever is consciousness, past, future or present... [that person], thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. [For one] knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body.
(MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society Vol III p 68)
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4 hours ago, dwai said:
I highly doubt that claim
But, he certainly made it more accessible to the masses.
Gautama taught the cessation of "determinate thought" in the activities of speech, body, and mind.
My impression is that the cessation of "determinate thought" in the activity of the body coupled with the "excellence of the heart's release" through the extension of compassion and sympathetic joy ("throughout the four quarters of the world, above, below, without limit") is what passes for enlightenment, for the most part.
Gautama studied under two of the masters of his day. They did not attain the cessation of "determinate thought" in feeling and perceiving, the attainment associated with Gautama's enlightenment ("dependent causation"). They were dead by the time he finally surpassed them, something he realized as he thought to go back and teach it to them.
I don't think even the first cessation is very accessible to the masses, plain though Gautama's teaching may be, much less the final cessation.(what's a mother to do!)
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On 5/27/2024 at 4:10 AM, Brad M said:I have this vague memory of being a child, sitting in my parents living room in a one piece pair of pajamas. Everything was new. I had no conceptions of what anything should look like, or any conceptions about myself or society. It was just me, coexisting and being with my loving family. For me, that is what reality is. Over time, that childhood presence has since been clouded by a complex web of conceptions and mental patterns that have built up my mind. Yet, when the clouds break, the same child emerges. The reality of this world is you sitting in your backyard like a child, admiring the energy of a magnificent tree with no reflection on what it means or entails.
In other words, this life is very real (and wonderful), its our conceptions of it that are empty.
'You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of 'I am'. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.
(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self - Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj's Direct Pointers to Reality]. Mumbai: Zen Publications. ISBN 978-9385902833)
Question is, how to Incorporate that experience in daily life, no?
Dogen wrote:
When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.
(“Genjo Koan”, Dogen, tr. Tanahashi)
Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness. A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”. The “place where you are”, the “fundamental point”, is “actualized”.
Dogen went on:
When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…
(“Genjo Koan”, Dogen, tr. Tanahashi)
Activity can take place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. “When you find your way at this moment”, habit and volition in the activity of the body has ceased, first and foremost with regard to the movement of breath. Instead, the activity of the body comes automatically with the free location of consciousness.I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. As a matter of daily life, just to touch on such experience as occasion demands—for me, that's enough.
(hopefully part of an upcoming post of mine)
As Neil Young sang:
It's hard to make that change
When life and love turns strange
And coldTo give a love
You gotta live a love
To live a love
You gotta be part of
When will I see you again?
("A Man Needs A Maid") -
On 5/25/2024 at 3:12 PM, Apech said:Skandha banana
I am sure we are all familiar with the idea that phenomena at five levels (form, feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness) are the result of 'bundles' 'heaps' or 'baskets' of causes and conditions and that the phenomena have no independent existence, are temporary and empty. This is basic Buddhist doctrine.
But on the other hand - if we see, touch, experience a tree - it is real. Indisputably real. Where does its reality come from?
So strange that you characterize the skandhas that way.
They are identifications of "self" with phenomena, not the phenomena. Dependent causation has to do with the source of suffering, which suffering (old age, sickness, death) Gautama referred to as "in short, the five skandhas".
They don't have to do with whether or not a tree is real, or what caused the tree, or what caused us to perceive the tree. Pass the olives, please.-
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On 5/26/2024 at 9:34 AM, Apech said:I ask for examples of:
The art work of early Buddhism shows what early Buddhism and the Buddha was like. He is not depicted but represented by a pair and sandals, or an empty cushion and so on. He is surrounded by dancing and singing, by nature spirits including voluptuous female nature spirits, and naga serpents.
and you give me a parasol over an empty seat. Tsk, tsk.
QuoteThe Muslim invasion was about 1200 AD and Naropa dates to the 10th century. Their practices were transmitted to Marpa and this became one of the four schools of TB namely Karma Kagyu. But there were various waves of Buddhism to Tibet including Padma Sambhava in 9th Cent and Atisha in 10th.
I see that you're right, northwestern India suffered Muslim incursions in the 7th century, but the wider invasion of India and the destruction of the Buddhist universities was not until the 12th-13th centuries.
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1 hour ago, Nungali said:PS you 'slipped one in ' , my up the end of the river comment was about the disco vid I posted not your post
Reality comes from the disco up the river, I'm willing to entertain that!
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On 5/23/2024 at 4:38 PM, Maddie said:I would also say more "spiritual" people for lack of a better word seem to be quite plain. Chop wood carry water.
Miraculous power and marvelous activity
Drawing water and chopping wood.(Pangyun, a lay Zen practitioner, eight century C.E.)
Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there;
lift up the stone and you will find Me there.(The Gospel According to Thomas, pg 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill)
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On 5/23/2024 at 4:55 AM, Apech said:Bodhi-cheating
The art work of early Buddhism shows what early Buddhism and the Buddha was like. He is not depicted but represented by a pair and sandals, or an empty cushion and so on. He is surrounded by dancing and singing, by nature spirits including voluptuous female nature spirits, and naga serpents.
You have examples of depictions with a pair of sandals surrounded by women and snakes?
On 5/23/2024 at 4:55 AM, Apech said:
This is a shamanistic scene. Buddha was a shaman who imparted knowledge.
No argument there, although he was the first to give a cogent explanation of concentration and the result of concentration.
On 5/23/2024 at 4:55 AM, Apech said:
A few centuries after his death the great king/emperor Ashoka appropriated Buddhism because it gave a chance of a way out of the otherwise inevitable consequences of the wide-scale slaughter he had perpetrated as part of his empire building. He felt sorry for this - sorry for himself in fact and wanted to save himself from the hell realms. The state subsidised Buddhism he introduced was, unlike the original Buddhism both scholastic and monastic. Early Buddhism had no written texts but under the new Buddhism the collections of texts became everything - where liberation came from listening to the text being read, thinking about them, meditating on them and so on.
It's generally agreed the books were repeated orally for the first 500 years, and only written down after that for fear that some of them might be forgotten. They were written down in Sri Lanka.
I'm not sure when the universities began to appear. Certainly, they were destroyed in the Muslim invasion around 700 C. E.. Peculiar that Tilopa and Naropa appeared on the scene about then. Wikipedia points out that Tilopa was a pimp for awhile and Naropa was grossly overweight. Nevetheless the practices they taught were the foundation of Tibetan Buddhism, or at least some schools of Tibetan Buddhism--am I right about that?On 5/23/2024 at 4:55 AM, Apech said:
State funding institutionalised Buddhism into monasteries and universities - much as Constantine did to Christianity - and created a new form of Buddhism which emphasised intellectual learning and religious hierarchies. Early Buddhist monks wandered in groups no larger than three, lived and worshipped in close connection with the local communities on whom they depended for food and supplied services such as healing and spells for good harvests and so on.
Five monks were required to induct a novice into the Order. Ashoka sent his son and four others to Sri Lanka.
On 5/23/2024 at 4:55 AM, Apech said:But for the monastics the text became everything in a kind of 'sola scriptora' approach. Attempts by modern Buddhists to re-find 'early Buddhism' fall into the trap of trying to abstract ideas from the texts and end up with a kind of desiccated secular mental exercise. Oddly to us moderns the closest thing to early Buddhism would be vajrayana even though it has much later historical roots. And it is the main criticism of vajrayana that it introduces magical, yogic and deity practices which places it much closer to what the Buddha was actually like.
I don't entirely disagree with your argument, here. I think Ch'an and Zen also preserve the mystery aspect of the original teaching, to some extent.
As I've said before, the mystery aspect is just the transition from a state of ease wherein the jaw, the arms, and the legs are sensed along with "one-pointedness" to a state wherein the activity of the body proceeds from the free location of consciousness ("as though in open space"). And maybe with the addition of the extension of compassion, activity of the body (and ultimately the mind) from the free location of consciousness encompassing things beyond the senses.The transcendent state of the perfect buddhas is supported. It is supported on the material aggregate, for example, like an eagle sleeping in its nest. It has a location. It is located in the heart, for example, like a figure in a vase.
("Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra", Wikipedia, “Rigpa”)
… free from the fervor of zest, (one) enters and abides in the third musing; (one) steeps and drenches and fills and suffuses this body with a zestless ease so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this zestless ease. … just as in a pond of blue, white, and red water-lillies, the plants are born in water, grow in water, come not out of the water, but, sunk in the depths, find nourishment, and from tip to root are steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with cold water so that not a part of them is not pervaded by cold water; even so, (one) steeps (one’s) body in zestless ease.
(Pali Text Society AN III 25-28 Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93 Vol III p 132-134)
You must strive with all your might to bite through here and cut off conditioned habits of mind. Be like a person who has died the great death: after your breath is cut off, then you come back to life. Only then do you realize that it is as open as empty space. Only then do you reach the point where your feet are walking on the ground of reality.
(Zen Letters, translated by J.C. and Thomas Cleary, pg 84)
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57 minutes ago, Apech said:
I would remind the celebrated souls of DaoBums that we have a thread on the gospel of Thomas
Ignoring that remark, and having established a basis, I now move to the central question of the thread: "why is Christianity so weird."
The great ones have difficulty conveying the means of their own attainment to others, that's why.
Gautama reflected on the difficulty of teaching, and only decided to go forward with teaching after the appeal of a celestial one for him to do so.
Gautama at least had a companion with a photographic memory for sound, or so the story goes. His attendant Ananda is purported to be the "I' in the "Thus have I heard" that begins many of the Pali sermons. And Gautama is unique in teaching the four arising of mindfulness and the states of concentration, and connecting those states to a particular insight into suffering.
The teaching of Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas is as close as we have to a record of Jesus's actual practice, IMHO. Did everybody find that passage I quoted made good sense to them? In the Gospel of Thomas, the impression is left that Thomas was the only one of Jesus's disciples who got something of what Jesus actually had to offer, in the way of a teaching. And Thomas apparently didn't do well at getting it across, if Dr. King's story about his death by stoning in the south of India is to be believed.Jesus did not do well at getting it across, even though people are still moved two millennia later. Paul's perverse version of Jesus's teaching has perhaps provided more people with a vehicle for selfless action in this world than Jesus's own teachings.
Gautama wound up eating a meal offering that killed him, some months after he ate it (a pig that ate a poisoned mushroom?). In his prescient way, Gautama told everyone else at the meal that he was the only one whose karma allowed eating of that particular offering. Gautama continued to teach for some months afterward, offering some of his most remarkable teachings in that period (no closed fist of the teacher regarding the esoteric aspects of the teaching, being a lamp to oneself regardless of any teachers and teachings).
The difficulty is in the explanation of the teachings. The number of meditation manuals that have been written since time immemorial testifies to that difficulty. I believe a better one can be written, out of the materials Eastern and Western that we now have available to us. Whether people will feel inspired to utilize such a manual without the provider of the manual demonstrating an otherworldly presence or performing miracles, that's another matter.
The cost of failing to provide a truly useful description to the folks making the offerings or to the powers that be, is clear. On the other hand, how exactly is someone to be persuaded to let go the arms and legs, and the jaw too? To experience something like blue, white, and red lotuses that never break the surface of the water--while suffusing each particle of the body with no particle left out with ease--and then "make an image in the place of an image"?
Holding a bent-knee posture, on the floor or standing, for any length of time, reveals necessity placing consciousness.-
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2 hours ago, old3bob said:well now, as Mark might say he got up and walked away from the cross.
I do like to think that he wound up a carpenter in Kashmir.
& I do like to think that the words recorded in the Gospel of Thomas are his:They said to Him: Shall we then, being children,
enter the Kingdom? Jesus said to them:
When you make the two one, and
when you make the inner as the outer
and the outer as the inner and the above
as the below, and when
you make the male and the female into a single one,
so that the male will not be male and
the female (not) be female, when you make
eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand
in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place
of a foot, (and) an image in the place of an image,
then shall you enter [the Kingdom].(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 18-19 log. 22, ©1959 E. J. Brill)
"Eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place of a foot"--"just as in a pond of blue, white, and red water-lillies, the plants are born in water, grow in water, come not out of the water, but, sunk in the depths, find nourishment, and from tip to root are steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with cold water so that not a part of them is not pervaded by cold water; even so, (one) steeps (one’s) body in zestless ease."
"an image in the place of an image"--"(one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind."
Jesus, like Gautama, spoke of himself in an odd fashion. That I think for both of them was a result of their attainment of "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving", the condition associated with Gautama's insight into the nature of suffering.
Gautama taught the further states culminating in "the cessation of feeling and perceiving", but for the most part he finished his descriptions of concentration with the fourth of the initial states, followed by a description of the "survery-sign" of the concentration (an overview of the body).
Most of what passes for enlightenment is the ability to utilize the "survey-sign" to touch on activity of the body solely by virtue of the location of consciousness, "purity by the pureness of mind", as called upon.
Jesus finished his description above with "an image in the place of an image", but he certainly taught the compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity that are the basis for the first three of Gautama's further states, and the way he referred to himself speaks to his personal attainment of the signless state.
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Very unpopular opinions
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by Mark Foote
Yes, I've come to that conclusion.
I did email him, years ago. We agreed to disagree.
And I… at the close of (instructional discourse), steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate my mind subjectively in that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide.
(Pali Text Society MN I 249, vol I p 303)
Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.
(Pali Text Society SN V 198, vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)
"Piti" was translated as "zest" by F. L. Woodward, in the paragraph about the 1st concentration I quoted above.
That's actually been something I've only found my way into recently, the "suffusion" of the body with zest and ease as in Gautama's description of the practice of the first concentration:
… just as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so, (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.
(Pali Text Society AN III 25-28, Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134)
The bath-ball I believe is a metaphor for "one-pointedness of mind".
My take:
Words like “steeps” and “drenches” convey a sense of gravity, while the phrase “not one particle of the body that is not pervaded” speaks to the “one-pointedness” of attention, even as the body is suffused.
If I can find a way to experience gravity in the placement of attention as the source of activity in my posture, and particular ligaments as the source of the reciprocity in that activity, then I have an ease.
("To Enjoy Our Life")
And yet, there is the feeling of ease for me that kicks in with gravity as the source of activity, and the extension of that ease while experiencing one-pointedness of mind I find provides a continuity. One-pointedness, the soap-ball, and the suffusion of the body (with no particle left out) with zest and ease--odd the way Gautama combined these seemingly disparate elements, isn't it?
You're talking about "the infinity of ether", the first of the further states? Gautama never referred to any of the further states by number, in the first four Nikayas.
All the states of concentration are described by Gautama as having equanimity as a characteristic, the first four equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses, and the further states equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses.
Maybe you're talking about the third jhana:
(One) enters & remains in the third (state), of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, (one) has a pleasant abiding.’
(Samadhanga Sutta, tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, AN 5.28 PTS: A iii 25; Pali Text Society, see AN Book of Threes text I,164; Vol II p 147)
Meditation on no object should not be confused with blank-mindedness in which you are completely dull as if in a stupor or a faint. It is extremely alert, mindful and clear, but as in the Clear Light death meditations, without any object or thoughts.
(“The Mahamudra: Eliminating the Darkness of Ignorance”, Wang Chug Dor-je, Alexander Berzin, Beru Khyentze Rinpoche; p. 51-52; commentary by Beru Khyentze Rinpoche)
... as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one.
(Koun Franz, "No Struggle" from his Nyoho Zen site)
There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
(A Way of Living)
Well and good.
Find out for yourself, how the location where awareness rests is the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing, and let me know when you experience the emptiness of the cessation of feeling and perceiving.
It's one thing to experience spontaneous feeling and perceiving in daily life, and quite another I think, to sit down and bring the spontaneity of feeling and perceiving about.