Mark Foote

57 minutes ago, Apech said:

I would remind the celebrated souls of DaoBums that we have a thread on the gospel of Thomas 
 

 

 

Ignoring that remark, and having established a basis, I now move to the central question of the thread:  "why is Christianity so weird."

 

The great ones have difficulty conveying the means of their own attainment to others, that's why. 

 

Gautama reflected on the difficulty of teaching, and only decided to go forward with teaching after the appeal of a celestial one for him to do so.

Gautama at least had a companion with a photographic memory for sound, or so the story goes.  His attendant Ananda is purported to be the "I' in the "Thus have I heard" that begins many of the Pali sermons.  And Gautama is unique in teaching the four arising of mindfulness and the states of concentration, and connecting those states to a particular insight into suffering.

The teaching of Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas is as close as we have to a record of Jesus's actual practice, IMHO.  Did everybody find that passage I quoted made good sense to them?  In the Gospel of Thomas, the impression is left that Thomas was the only one of Jesus's disciples who got something of what Jesus actually had to offer, in the way of a teaching.  And Thomas apparently didn't do well at getting it across, if Dr. King's story about his death by stoning in the south of India is to be believed. 

 

Jesus did not do well at getting it across, even though people are still moved two millennia later.  Paul's perverse version of Jesus's teaching has perhaps provided more people with a vehicle for selfless action in this world than Jesus's own teachings.

Gautama wound up eating a meal offering that killed him, some months after he ate it (a pig that ate a poisoned mushroom?).  In his prescient way, Gautama told everyone else at the meal that he was the only one whose karma allowed eating of that particular offering.  Gautama continued to teach for some months afterward, offering some of his most remarkable teachings in that period (no closed fist of the teacher regarding the esoteric aspects of the teaching, being a lamp to oneself regardless of any teachers and teachings).  

The difficulty is in the explanation of the teachings.  The number of meditation manuals that have been written since time immemorial testifies to that difficulty.  I believe a better one can be written, out of the materials Eastern and Western that we now have available to us.  Whether people will feel inspired to utilize such a manual without the provider of the manual demonstrating an otherworldly presence or performing miracles, that's another matter.

The cost of failing to provide a truly useful description to the folks making the offerings or to the powers that be, is clear.  On the other hand, how exactly is someone to be persuaded to let go the arms and legs, and the jaw too?   To experience something like blue, white, and red lotuses that never break the surface of the water--while suffusing each particle of the body with no particle left out with ease--and then "make an image in the place of an image"? 

Holding a bent-knee posture, on the floor or standing, for any length of time, reveals necessity placing consciousness.

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

well now, as Mark might say he got up and walked away from the cross.
 

 

I do like to think that he wound up a carpenter in Kashmir.

& I do like to think that the words recorded in the Gospel of Thomas are his:

 

They said to Him: Shall we then, being children,
enter the Kingdom? Jesus said to them:
When you make the two one, and
when you make the inner as the outer
and the outer as the inner and the above
as the below, and when
you make the male and the female into a single one,
so that the male will not be male and
the female (not) be female, when you make
eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand
in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place
of a foot, (and) an image in the place of an image,
then shall you enter [the Kingdom].

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 18-19 log. 22, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

 

"Eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place of a foot"--"just as in a pond of blue, white, and red water-lillies, the plants are born in water, grow in water, come not out of the water, but, sunk in the depths, find nourishment, and from tip to root are steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with cold water so that not a part of them is not pervaded by cold water; even so, (one) steeps (one’s) body in zestless ease."

 

"an image in the place of an image"--"(one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind."

 

Jesus, like Gautama, spoke of himself in an odd fashion.  That I think for both of them was a result of their attainment of "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving", the condition associated with Gautama's insight into the nature of suffering. 

 

Gautama taught the further states culminating in "the cessation of feeling and perceiving", but for the most part he finished his descriptions of concentration with the fourth of the initial states, followed by a description of the "survery-sign" of the concentration (an overview of the body).  

Most of what passes for enlightenment is the ability to utilize the "survey-sign" to touch on activity of the body solely by virtue of the location of consciousness, "purity by the pureness of mind", as called upon.  

Jesus finished his description above with "an image in the place of an image", but he certainly taught the compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity that are the basis for the first three of Gautama's further states, and the way he referred to himself speaks to his personal attainment of the signless state.  

 

On 5/18/2024 at 3:15 PM, Nungali said:

 

... Then some weird linking to the top of the pole  ( that you made ) .

Then references to some practice about the top of the pole  that Shishuang made 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

(Apech, on "what made YOU laugh today" thread yesterday)

 

  

 

 

 

Long quote from Pali sermons, hold your nose, Nungali:
 

… just as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so, (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.
 

… imagine a pool with a spring, but no water-inlet on the east side or the west side or on the north or on the south, and suppose the (rain-) deva supply not proper rains from time to time–cool waters would still well up from that pool, and that pool would be steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with the cold water so that not a drop but would be pervaded by the cold water; in just the same way… (one) steeps (their) body with zest and ease…
 

… free from the fervor of zest, (one) enters and abides in the third musing; (one) steeps and drenches and fills and suffuses this body with a zestless ease so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this zestless ease. … just as in a pond of blue, white, and red water-lillies, the plants are born in water, grow in water, come not out of the water, but, sunk in the depths, find nourishment, and from tip to root are steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with cold water so that not a part of them is not pervaded by cold water; even so, (one) steeps (one’s) body in zestless ease.
 

Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity…  

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134)

 

The step off the pole is between the third state above and the fourth. A summation of my experience, so far:

 

I wrote to a friend:

 

The striking thing to me about my experience on the cushion these days is that I am practicing some kind of scales, as it were.  Gautama outlined the feeling of four states, the initial three and then the “purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind”, the fourth.  

 

I’ve described that “pureness of mind” as what remains when “doing something” ceases, and I wrote:

 

When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.
 

 

The rest of the scales are looking for a grip where attention takes place in the body, as “one-pointedness” turns and engenders a counter-turn (without losing the freedom of movement of attention); finding ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine through relaxation, and calming the stretch of ligaments; and discovering hands, feet, and teeth together with “one-pointedness” (“bite through here”, as Yuanwu advised; “then we can walk together hand in hand”, as Yuanwu’s teacher Wu Tsu advised).
 

 

In the months since I wrote my friend, I’ve had some time to reflect. There are some things I would add, on my practice of “scales”.

 

Gautama spoke of suffusing the body with “zest and ease” in the first concentration:

 

 … (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.

 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19)

 

Words like “steeps” and “drenches” convey a sense of gravity, while the phrase “not one particle of the body that is not pervaded” speaks to the “one-pointedness” of attention, even as the body is suffused.

 

If I can find a way to experience gravity in the placement of attention as the source of activity in my posture, and particular ligaments as the source of the reciprocity in that activity, then I have an ease.

 

Gautama taught that zest ceases in the third concentration, while the feeling of ease continues:

 

(One) enters & remains in the third (state), of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, (one) has a pleasant abiding.’  

(Samadhanga Sutta, tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, AN 5.28 PTS: A iii 25;  Pali Text Society, see AN Book of Threes text I,164; Vol II p 147)

 

That’s a recommendation of the third concentration, especially for long periods. Nevertheless, I find that the stage of concentration that lends itself to practice in the moment is dependent on the tendency toward the free placement of attention. As I wrote in my last post:
 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration.

 

Shunryu Suzuki said:
 

To enjoy our life– complicated life, difficult life– without ignoring it, and without being caught by it. Without suffer from it. That is actually what will happen to us after you practice zazen.  

 

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco)

 

I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom.

 

("To Enjoy Our Life")

 

 

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

These are the carved foot prints that show nail hole scars ????

 

They are just stylized marks to show the main outlines on the soles of the feet  , the arch and the crease behind the ball of the foot .

 

Jeeze man !

 

Anyway, at least you got another chance to cite  how once in a while, you know, Zen gets up and walks around .

 

Well, they don't let tourists into that tomb anymore.  I can't tell anything from the photo, either, but I was hoping whoever wrote that website got a closer look, and that the photo might at least say that it's possible.

Just another long-haired hippie from the west, that landed in Kashmir and earned himself a tomb in 89 A.D..

Dogen wrote "although actualized immediately, what is inconceivable may not be apparent".  That's his version of "sometimes zazen gets up and walks around".  I've been sparing everybody Dogen's remarks, but here you go:

 

10.

Here is the place; here the way unfolds. The boundary of realization is not distinct, for the
realization comes forth simultaneously with the full experience of buddha dharma. Do not
suppose that what you attain becomes your knowledge and is grasped by your intellect. Although
actualized immediately, what is inconceivable may not be apparent. Its emergence is beyond
your knowledge.
11.
Mayu, Zen Master Baoche, was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, “Master, the
nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why then do you fan
yourself?”
“Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent,” Mayu replied, “you do not
understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere.”
“What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?” asked the monk again.
Mayu just kept fanning himself.
The monk bowed deeply.
12.
The actualization of the buddha dharma, the vital path of its authentic transmission, is like this. If
you say that you do not need to fan yourself because the nature of wind is permanent and you
can have wind without fanning, you will understand neither permanence nor the nature of wind.
The nature of wind is permanent; because of that, the wind of the buddha’s house brings forth the
gold of the earth and ripens the cream of the long river.

Written around mid-autumn, the first year of the Tempuku Era [1233], and given to my lay
student Koshu Yo of Kyushu Island. Revised in the fourth year of the Kencho Era [1252].
--Translation by Kazuaki Tanahashi
 

 

Isn't it better to just say, "sometimes zazen fans the person doing zazen"? 

 

It's a difficult topic to address, and as Kobun said:
 

It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it.

(“Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48)

 

 

From the post I'm working on now:

 

I used to talk about the location of consciousness, but a friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location. As a result, I switched to writing about the placement of attention:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(A Way of Living)

 

 

... I have found that zazen is more likely to “get up and walk around” when the free location of consciousness is accompanied by an active extension of compassion, an extension beyond the boundaries of the senses. Perhaps that’s why my friend thinks of consciousness as pervading the entire universe.

 

Or perhaps he’s just tuned in to the state of concentration that was known to Gautama the Buddha as “the infinity of consciousness”.  “The infinity of consciousness” was described as a “further state”, to be attained by “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of compassion and sympathetic joy beyond the limits of the senses. 

 

Nevertheless, when Gautama addressed the wanderer Udayin, he said:

 

Udayin, as an emerald jewel, of all good qualities, might be strung on a thread, blue-green or yellow or red or white or orange coloured; and a [person] with vision, having put it in [their] hand, might reflect; ‘this emerald jewel… is strung on a thread, blue-green… or orange-coloured’–even so, Udayin, a course has been pointed out by me for disciples, practising which disciples of mine know thus: This body of mine… is of a nature to be constantly rubbed away… and scattered, but this consciousness is fastened there, bound there….

 

(MN II 17, Pali Text Society vol II p 217)

 

 

So there's yer compulsory long quotation from the Pali sermons, Nungali.

 

Right now, the tomb is apparently looked after by devout Muslim families, who of course look nothing like Israelic families, and who don't like tourists around the tomb:

 

Yes, locals warned me that Sunni Muslims around do not like the idea of tourists visiting, so I had to dress up like locals & managed to reach this blessed tomb. There are warnings not to take video or photos & tomb is closed. 

 

(Trip Advisor, https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g297623-d3704970-r378435732-Roza_Bal_Shrine-Srinagar_Srinagar_District_Kashmir_Jammu_and_Kashmir.html)

 

 

The blessed tomb... bless its little heart...

 

 

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Well, it seems at least two people got that .

 

Maybe I am past being a daobums ?

 

Me :  God 'forsook' Jesus - not only is it a death cult, its one without hope ."

 

Response ; A citation to what I thought people would know what I am talking about ..... okay then .  But then some variegates in translation with the same translation  in English .... errrmmmm ... okay then .

 

Then weird shit about Kashmir ( via Thomas   ) .... scars on feet ???? !  Must be Jesus . 
 

 

The claim made by the acts of Thomas that he traveled to the land of the Parthians and the border of India is supported by other recordings of the time, from writers such as Ephrem the Syrian, Eusebius and Origen...

(Wikipedia, "Acts of Thomas")
 

 

I think I believe Dr. Noel King's story about Thomas in the south of India, though it was just the folklore of the village he came from.

Photo purported to be from Rosa Bal, of footprints carved in stone that were apparently found when "century-old layers of wax were removed in 1975 from an elevated stone in the inner chamber of the tomb":
 

 

 

(https://www.mukti4u2.dk/Jesus_Rozabal_Srinagar.htm)
 

 

More from that site, of course it must be true, I read it on the internet!

 

The mausolaeum of the profet Yuz Asaf and the Islamic saint Syed Nasr-ud-Dinis is today located in the middle of Srinagar's old town, Anzimar in the Khanyar quarter. The building constructed is called "Razabal" or "Rauza Bal". "Rauza" is a term used to denote the tomb of a celebrated personality, someone noble, wealthy or saintly.

 

Anjuna, which is Sanskit for John/Johannes, built the tomb around 89AD. The tomb was first mentioned in documents from 112AD which states, that a protective building had been constructed over the crypt.

 

The tomb is said to have been tended by an Israelic looking family, in an unbroken line throughout the centuries.

 

 

Quote

 

Then some weird linking to the top of the pole  ( that you made ) .

Then references to some practice about the top of the pole  that Shishuang made .

 

I suppose one is supposed to try and link that with the crucifixion and what Jesus did ?

 

I must be thick, as when I peer into the astral I see a sea of 'new awareness' enlightenees nodding in approval  as their minds have  been able to comprehend this twisted path .

 

( At least I didnt get cited passages of  Pali canon  - long ones that is )

 

 

 

It's one thing to believe in Jesus as the Christ through whom all of mankind's sins are redeemed, and to take as an article of faith that such a belief will permit the bearer to pass from this earth to a place in the sky where all the relatives (or maybe only the well-liked relatives) reside.  It's another thing to experience a personal helplessness to do right and take Jesus within, to "let Jesus do it" in daily life.  

That would be my understanding, Jesus is not my vehicle, although when I find my way to feeling and to extending ease in the experience of "one-pointedness" of mind, I wonder if that is not something of the feeling that a Jesus-freak attributes to the divine. 

And I'm pretty sure that when Jesus lends a hand, it goes like this:

 

Gautama pointed out that with concentration, “determinate thought” in action of the body can cease, in particular volition that affects the movement of inhalation or exhalation can cease.

 

That doesn’t mean that action of the body can’t take place, only that the exercise of will or volition is not involved.  I have many times quoted a remark I heard Zen teacher Kobun Chino Otogawa make at the end of one of his lectures at the San Francisco Zen Center:

 

You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around.
 

 

If a person “takes the attitude of someone who… lets go of both hands and feet” (as Dogen instructed), then perhaps there will come a moment when the hands and feet walk around.  At that moment, there will be new meaning to be had in cleaning cat boxes, cooking, shopping, driving, and bathing, though these experiences might not involve the attitude that advances from the top of a 100-foot pole throughout.

 

(Response to “Not the Wind, Not the Flag”, slightly edited)
 

 

From the post I'm working on:

 

Activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness can sometimes get up and walk around, without any thought to do so. 

 

Action like that resembles action that takes place through hypnotic suggestion, but unlike action by hypnotic suggestion, action by virtue of the free location of consciousness can turn out to be timely after the fact. 

 

Everyone experiences action by virtue of the free location of consciousness all the time, though usually without a presence of mind. When such action takes place with a presence of mind, then there’s a sense of something that is not readily apparent behind the action, of the inconceivable.
 

 

Maybe some would say, "of Jesus!"

 

 

9 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

you probably read that book by Paramahansa Yogananda, the well known Yogi/Swami around 45+ years ago like i did?   So how getting Fred Flintstone or Yogi Berra mixed in there is on you...LOL  
 

 

Saw it in the book store many times, but never bought or read it.

Just wondering what he said about Jesus--if he said anything about Yogi Bear, that would be a bonus! 

 

8 hours ago, oak said:

 

Isn't Buddhism a strange religion ?
 

"According to tradition, the historical Buddha lived from 563 to 483 B.C., although scholars postulate that he may have lived as much as a century later. He was born to the rulers of the Shakya clan, hence his appellation Shakyamuni, which means “sage of the Shakya clan.” The legends that grew up around him hold that both his conception and birth were miraculous. His mother, Maya, conceived him when she dreamed that a white elephant entered her right side (1976.402). She gave birth to him in a standing position while grasping a tree in a garden (1987.417.1). "

 

And this was just the beginning of things...
 

You didn't give a source, on your quote. 

 

As to "born to the rulers of the Sakyan clan":
 

I know that while my father, the Sakyan, was ploughing, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, I entered on the first meditation, which is accompanied by initial thought and discursive thought, is born of aloofness, and is rapturous and joyful, and while abiding therein, I thought: ‘Now could this be a way to awakening?’ Then, following on my mindfulness, Aggivissana, there was the consciousness: This is itself the Way to awakening. This occurred to me, Aggivissana: ‘Now, am I afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind?’ This occurred to me…: I am not afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind.’
 

(MN 1 246-247, Pali Text Society Vol I pg 301)

 

 

I'm thinking the rulers of the Sakyan clan didn't plow fields much, and Gautama was therefore probably not born to a ruler of the Sakyan clan.

 

His aunt raised him, as his mother died at childbirth.  Can't give a source on that, but I think it's commonly accepted.  It was his aunt who, many years later, appealed to Gautama to admit woman to the order--or rather, Gautama's attendant Ananda appealed to Gautama on her behalf.  Three times Ananda asked, and on the third Gautama relented and admitted them, warning that it would shorten the life of the Order from a thousand to five hundred years ("The Gotamid", Pali Text Society AN vol IV p181)

One of the most amazing events in the history of Buddhism was the first schism, when the order of monks couldn't agree on whether or not an arahant (an enlightened individual) could have a wet dream (could be seduced by a Succubus, in their sleep).  I believe that split was the beginning of the distinction between Theravadin and Mahayanin traditions (this from "Indian Buddhism", by A. K. Warder).  A strange religion getting stranger.

 

Gautama put forward a way of living that he said was:

 

… something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too.   

 

(SN V 320-322, Pali Text Society SN V p 285)

 

That way of living, Gautama said, was his way of living both before and after enlightenment.  The fact that he recommended a way of living that could be realized without enlightenment gets lost, in all the hullabaloo about enlightenment.  

A favorite passage from the Pali sermons:

 

But when walking along the highway, Nagita, I see nothing whatever in front nor behind, it suits me, even over the calls of nature. 

 

(AN VI, IV 42 Pali Text Society vol 3 p 243)

 

Buddhism is a strange religion!

 

 

8 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

more mind blowing info in contrast to orthodox Christianity can also be found in,  "Autobiography of a Yogi" by Paramahansa Yogananda.

 

I did a search on "Autobiography of a Yogi Jesus".

Among the search results:

 

What was yogi Bear's famous saying?
 

 

The quick summary window revealed:

Perhaps his most famous of all: "It ain't over 'til it's over." "Baseball is 90 percent mental. The other half is physical." On posterity: "I always thought that record would stand until it was broken."

 

 

Gee--I always thought it was "Smarter than the average bear!"

 

Give us a hint, old3bob!

On 5/16/2024 at 3:49 PM, Nungali said:

 

But no ... Jesus dies a horrible death , he calls out to God for help .... and is totally ignored ... and dies .

 

way to go God ... good lesson;  ....  dont rely on God , keep yer head down  and dont fight the power of the state !
 

"My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" is a phrase that appears both in the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible, in the Book of Psalms, as well as in the New Testament of the Christian Bible, as one of the sayings of Jesus on the cross, according to Matthew 27:46 and also Mark 15:34.

...In the New Testament, the phrase is the only of the seven Sayings of Jesus on the cross that appears in more than one Gospel.
 

... Matthew ESV 27:46:

Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
 

Mark ESV 15:34:

And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, for what have you forsaken me?"

 

(Wikipedia, "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?")

 

I think Thomas got poor Jesus on a caravan going east.

I had a professor at UC Santa Cruz, who said that his home-town folk in the south of India believed Thomas came there, and was stoned to death there.  They were all Thomas Christians.  

Is there a tomb of Jesus, in Kashmir?  A tomb with a stone carved with footprints that show having been pierced as though by crucifixion?

The images of Jesus in the Christian churches, aren't they like a visual representation of the sacrifice necessary to take Jesus within and realize the will of God in action?  The step from the top of the hundred-foot pole...
 

Shishuang said, “How do you step from the top of the hundred-foot pole?”
 

Changsha said, “You who sit on the top of a hundred-foot pole,
although you have entered the Way, it is not yet genuine.
Take a step from the hundred-foot pole
and the worlds of the Ten Directions are your total body.
 

Excerpt from a Verse:
The peach trees, without words, make a path.
 

—Gateless Gate, Case 46 & Book of Serenity, Case 79

(https://www.pacificzen.org/library/koan/shishuangs-hundred-foot-pole-gg46-bs79/)

57 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I´m having trouble connecting how your thoughts connect to the quotation of mine you posted.  
 

 

 

 

In the first century of the Common Era, there appeared at the eastern end of the Mediterranean a remarkable religious leader who taught the worship of one true God and declared that religion meant not the sacrifice of beasts but the practice of charity and piety and the shunning of hatred and enmity.  He was said to have worked miracles of goodness, casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead. His exemplary life led some of his followers to claim he was a son of God, though he called himself the son of a man.  Accused of sedition against Rome, he was arrested.  After his death, his disciples claimed he had risen from the dead, appeared to them alive, and then ascended to heaven.  Who was this teacher and wonder-worker? His name was Apollonius of Tyana; he died about 98 A.D., and his story may be read in Flavius Philostratus's "Life of Apollonius".

("Gospel Fictions", Randel Helms, p 9)

 

I don't doubt that the man whose sayings were recorded in "The Gospel of Thomas" was a profound teacher, one of the few in the history of our civilization (if you could call it that).   If I remember correctly, there are no miracles in that gospel, and it was Thomas who stood out among the disciples, not Peter.  The kingdom of heaven was within, the deathless attainable. 

In Thomas, the deathless was attained by penetrating the meaning of the words, while in John, the deathless is available to those who "obey my words" (John 8:51).

If I understand correctly, it was Paul who came up with the notion that we're all helpless sinners who cannot do right without taking Jesus within.  Strangely enough, that's what works, for the Jesus freaks I've known who had a living faith.  

Something I'm writing now:

 

You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around. 

(Kobun Chino Otogawa, S. F. Zen Center lecture, 1980’s)
 

 

Activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness can sometimes get up and walk around, without any thought to do so. 

 

Action like that resembles action that takes place through hypnotic suggestion, but unlike action by hypnotic suggestion, action by virtue of the free location of consciousness can turn out to be timely after the fact....

 

I have found that zazen is more likely to “get up and walk around” when activity by virtue of the free location of consciousness is accompanied by an active extension of compassion, an extension beyond the boundaries of the senses.

 

 

It's that "timely after the fact" part that makes the successful Jesus freaks I've known take Jesus within and surrender their action to him.  The individual without Jesus was a helpless sinner, because the more willful the action was, the less "timely after the fact".

 

As for me:

 

I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness.
 

Then I pray that I'll return to that experience as my circumstances require, during my daily life.

 

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

These social advances have given us both freedom and anxiety; not one or the other, but both.  
 

 

There's a sermon somewhere in the Pali Canon where some dignitary visits the place where a group of monks are residing, and comments that they are like wild animals, in that they respond to their environment more readily than the average person.

 

Sometimes I think the wild animals I meet respond to my mind, before I do anything overtly.  Just the presence of my consciousness with them is enough to set them in motion, or so it seems!

From the post I'm writing:

 

I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness.

 

The practice of the wild animals, IMHO. 

I take that to have been the daily practice of the Gautamid, not the cessation of volition in feeling and perceiving associated with his enlightenment, but the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the body in inbreathing and outbreathing.  Set it up, come back to it as necessary.

Maybe someday, I will move because someone was conscious of me, without knowing why.

 

4 hours ago, surrogate corpse said:

 

Fear is a powerful motivator. That's why I keep returning to it. The first principle of morality is: master your fear. Everything else follows.

 

 

 

While I understand what you're saying (or at least I think I do), I have to believe the mastery is not in head-on confrontation.

I'm working on a post for my own site, and this is the last part of it (so far):

 

Dogen wrote:

 

Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent.

 

("Genjo Koan", tr. Tanahashi)

 

 

Kobun Chino Otogawa provided a practical example:

 

 You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around. 

 

(Kobun, S. F. Zen Center lecture, 1980’s)
 

 

Activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness can sometimes get up and walk around, without any thought to do so. 

 

Action like that resembles action that takes place through hypnotic suggestion, but unlike action by hypnotic suggestion, action by virtue of the free location of consciousness can turn out to be timely after the fact.  When action accords with future events in an uncanny manner, the source of the action may well be described as “the inconceivable”.

 

I have found that zazen is more likely to “get up and walk around” when activity by virtue of the free location of consciousness is accompanied by an active extension of compassion, an extension beyond the boundaries of the senses.
 

 

There is also a sermon wherein Gautama described what he learned about dealing with fear in the forest.  He says he learned to continue in the carriage or posture he was in until he overcame the fear--if he was walking, he continued to walk, if he was standing, he continued to stand, and so forth.  

 

Amazing how I found "sink" the other day, when the neighbor's German Shepard got out and was growling behind me as I walked down the street!  How could I not extend compassion to the Shepard, knowing his owner had given the dog a junkyard life since he was a pup.  Harder for me to have compassion for that owner, although I suspect he too was given a junkyard life.

 

Lot of junkyard lives around, we all have junkyard lives in one respect or another. 

On 5/12/2024 at 3:50 PM, Nungali said:

 

I find this amusing . Not many understand what it is .   All that love and harmony stuff ... they tried to BS me with that in my Aikido training . I showed them a picture of 'master' from my old first edition Aikido book , he has avoided a sword blow and is striking back with the metal points on the end of a fan into the attackers eyes and has a crazy screaming ('kiai') look on his face .

 

Love and harmony ....   

 

I can explain the how and why  behind the  peace and harmony  BS . Aikido WAS NOT  'born in accordance' with these principles at all .

 

It was part of a militia cult movement that was going to be part of world domination .... it interesting how a couple of nukes can make  someone to pull their head in  .....   and for their (now) 'art' to survive  ( as a money bringing family cult ... it still is ) it had to be changed and re written  .  No martial art existed after WWII that was not turned onto a sport or some expression of 'art' (budo)  or  'love jitsu ' .

 

PS . I am not dissing the benefits of the modern art , just 'ironing out some historical BS '
 

Thanks, Maddie, for giving us all permission to offer opinions and meander around a little bit.

Trunk, I gotta say, that I was very interested both in Salvijus's varying personalities, and Maddie's steady keel.  I'll be the first to acknowledge that I too have varying personalities, depending on who I'm with and the social context of the moment (or at least sometimes it seems like I have varying personalities, to me)--hopefully I'm true through them all, although not true in the sense that Salvijus meant when he referred to "truth".

Salvijus I believe is some denomination of Christian, and so perhaps has other struggles related to his faith.  I'm the fool that believes those differences can be cut through clean, so long as all the participants bring a willingness to jump into the unknown together.  Can't be just one side that jumps.  Not to abandon one's beliefs, but to put more faith in process than end result.

 

Judo was taken out of jiu-jitsu in the 1880's, I believe.  According to Wikipedia:
 

Judo rose to prominence for its dominance over established jujutsu schools in tournaments hosted by the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department (警視庁武術大会, Keishicho Bujutsu Taikai), resulting in its adoption as the department's primary martial art.

 

I really am out of touch with what happened in the Aikido world after the seventies.  At that time, I think there was a split between the Ki-Aikido of Koichi Tohei and the Aikido of Kissomaru Ueshiba, Morihei's son, which placed less emphasis on ki and more on technique.  My favorite thing of Aikido was a film I saw that included footage of Morihei spinning a jo, a short stick, just spinning it--no kata.  He seemed to really enjoy it (I've looked, but I've never found that footage online).

 

I have known friends who took  up Aikido and mastered it.  It's a lot like Zen, in California--we have a lot of masters, but it's unclear how they will do in the cage, because engaging with real-world opponents was not in their training.  That's my opinion, and it's very true (as my father used to say).

Me and my dad:

 

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

No law suit .

 

I blamed it on their cat .

 

 

That's unfair, it was clearly the dog!

 

 

19 hours ago, surrogate corpse said:

 

yes, that's the joke ; )
 

 

 

surrogate, could you give us the lead in as well as the punch line in the future, so those of us who are a bit slow on the draw can actually realize that it's a joke?

 

 

On 5/11/2024 at 9:53 AM, surrogate corpse said:

jiujitsu is, as we all know, all about using force generated from within yourself to impose your will on another 👁️
 

Maddie may have already responded to this. 

Like any other martial art, the heart of the matter in jiu-jitsu is the heart-mind, and how the heart-mind and the force of gravity work together to allow the activity of a relaxed body to embrace the stretch of ligaments.

Given that “chin comes from the ligaments”, the essence of these arts is:
 

“t’ing chin, listening to or feeling strength”; “comprehension of chin”... 

(both quotes from “Three Levels” from “Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on Ta’i Chi Chuan”, Cheng Man Ch’ing, trans. Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, p 77-78)

 

And one more step, after “comprehension of chin”:

 

“perfect clarity.”

(“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, Douglas Wile, p 57)

 

 

I write more about these steps in A Way of Living.  I know these things as something useful in the practice of seated meditation, not through the mastery of Tai Chi (I have a second-degree brown belt in judo, for what that's worth).

 

Yes, jiu-jitsu can be more readily transformed into an offensive art than some of the off-shoots of jiu-jitsu, like judo or aikido.  In the end, though, the heart of all the martial arts is the same, and is as expressed by the founder of Aikido Morihei Ueshiba:

 

… the spirit of aikido can only be love and harmony. Aikido was born in accordance with the principles and workings of the Universe.

(https://aikidojournal.com/2016/09/24/interview-with-morihei-ueshiba-and-kisshomaru-ueshiba/)

 

 

 

14 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

Reason is not an ally to fear. Reason serves and protects whatever you think is most valuable to you. And what you value most in life is a choice. 
 

About reason, and choice.

 

Relax your mind, relax your mind
Make you feel so fine sometime
Sometime you got to relax your mind

When the light turns green
Put your foot down on the gasoline
Sometime you got to relax your mind

Chorus

When the light turns red
Put your foot down on the brake instead
Sometime you got to relax your mind

Chorus

When the light turns blue
What in the world are you gonna do
Sometime you got to relax your mind

 

(Jim Kweskin, "Relax Your Mind")
 

 

That' the problem, with reason, with truth, and with choice--the light that turns blue.
 

 

 

On 4/24/2024 at 2:34 PM, Mark Foote said:

 

Abbot phone-whips monk

enters phone-whip samadhi

cat yawns and stretches
 

 

 

cat yawns and stretches

goes outside, comes back inside
rests on her laurels

 

 

3 hours ago, Apech said:

There’s Egyptian pictures but I don’t have the link.
 

 

Ptah-Hotep East Wall:

 

 

 

16 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

It's just a question of what's the truth of the matter. 

 

Also I'm under the impression that the discussions of what is the truth regarding different topics, ideas, teachings, information, perceptions happen on every thread on this forum and not just this one. 
 

 

 

The first incompleteness theorem states that no consistent system of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an effective procedure (i.e., an algorithm) is capable of proving all truths about the arithmetic of natural numbers. For any such consistent formal system, there will always be statements about natural numbers that are true, but that are unprovable within the system.

 

(Wikipedia, "Gödel's incompleteness theorems")

 

 

There are arithmetic statements that cannot be proven to be true or false from any consistent system of axioms.  I think the physical universe within which we operate is analogous to arithmetic in that regard--there will be statements about the universe that cannot be proven true or false from any consistent set of starting assumptions.

What's important to me is my necessity.  I went without a lot of things for awhile, and I became certain of what my personal necessity was, going forward.  

Gautama was revered by his initial set of companions because he was the foremost ascetic among them.  In the end, he barely had the strength to pull himself out of a river by a low-hanging branch.  After one of the locals nursed him back to health, he came to a fortunate insight:

 

“I know that while my father, the Sakyan, was ploughing, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, I entered on the first meditation, which is accompanied by initial thought and discursive thought, is born of aloofness, and is rapturous and joyful, and while abiding therein, I thought: ‘Now could this be a way to awakening?’ Then, following on my mindfulness, Aggivissana, there was the consciousness: This is itself the Way to awakening. This occurred to me, Aggivissana: ‘Now, am I afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind?’ This occurred to me...: I am not afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind.’”

 

(MN 1 246-247, Pali Text Society Vol I p 301)

In "Battle for the Mind", Sargant writes about the underlying mechanism of religious conversion and Korean brainwashing.  Seems that with continued suggestion and enough stress, starvation, and illness, any normal person can be expected to wake up one morning believing in whatever they've been told is their salvation.  It's a mechanism that's built into our physiology.  

There's necessity in the placement of attention in the movement of breath, particularly as outbreath turns to inbreath and inbreath turns to outbreath.  If I take a bent-knee posture for any length of time,  that becomes apparent!

 

 

 

 

 

On 5/3/2024 at 5:10 PM, liminal_luke said:

 

This seemed like the right moment to share my favorite movie clip.  I often feel like Harold arriving late to the party.  Life´s tough.  I hope we´ll be easy with each other.
 

 

 

Thanks for posting that, liminal_luke.

There's a kind of a shock factor going on in the clip, from the birthday song and kiss, to the confrontation over arriving late.

Harold confronts the situation by staying real, and true to their own feelings.  

I think the shock factor is exactly why many people are uncomfortable being around folks whose gender identity is not the majority societal norm.  We're not necessarily always present in each moment, we're not necessarily always true to our feelings and able to be spontaneously aware.  We don't necessarily like being confronted with our ignorance, with our sensual attachments, with our attachment to being a "self" that is defined and accepted by our peers.

 

And then there's the blurring of the lines that occurs when respected spiritual leaders show their sensual attachments, in spite of their selfless presence.

 

What a world.

 

I expected the shock factor, and I hesitated at first to watch the clip.  Good choice, for this discussion.

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

The super computer architecture used for genetic sequencing in Jurassic Park was (trivia question bonus points to those who knew the answer): multi XMP. The chip hardware used in the XMP system was designed by a man called Seymour Cray.

 

While Seymour Cray was no taoist or TCM practitioner (to my knowledge).

 

He had an interesting method of cultivating his mind through his body which he enthusiastically shared & publicized.

 

He would dig large holes and possibly even tunnels in his backyard using hand tools. Pickaxe, shovel, etc.

 

He found this would stimulate his mind and help him to solve problems that had him stuck in a rut.

 

That could be one good example of cultivating the mind through the body.

 

Something which may be attainable even to those who do not seek to cultivate qi.

 

 

Something in me, dark and sticky
All the time it's getting strong
No way of dealing with this feeling
Can't go on like this too long

 

... Digging in the dirt
Stay with me, I need support
I'm digging in the dirt
To find the places I got hurt
Open up the places I got hurt

 

... The more I look, the more I find
As I close on in, I get so blind
I feel it in my head, I feel it in my toes
I feel it in my sex, that's the place it goes

 

... Digging in the dirt
Stay with me, I need support
I'm digging in the dirt
To find the places I got hurt
Open up the places I got hurt

 

(from "Digging in the Dirt", Peter Gabriel)

 

 

On 5/1/2024 at 8:57 PM, exorcist_1699 said:

You , in fact, cannot grind a brick into a  mirror.  Or,  put it  in other way :  If a horse cart does not move forward, which one should you whip ? The cart or the horse ?
 

 

 

When the Ch'an master Ta-chi of Chiang-hsi was studying with the Ch'an master Ta-hui of Nan-yüeh, after intimately receiving the mind seal, he always sat in meditation. Once Nan-yüeh went to Ta-chi and said, "Worthy one, what are you figuring to do, sitting there in meditation?

Chiang-hsi said, 'I'm figuring to make a Buddha."

 

At this point, Nan-yüeh took up a tile and began to rub it on a stone. At length, Ta-chi asked, "Master, what are you doing?"

 

Nan-yüeh said, "I'm polishing this to make a mirror."

 

Ta-chi said, "How can you produce a mirror by polishing a tile?"

 

Nan-yüeh replied, "How can you make a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"

 

Ta-chi asked, "Then, what is right?"

 

Nan-yüeh replied, "When a man is driving a cart, if the cart doesn't go, should he beat the cart or beat the ox?"

 

Ta-chi did not reply.

 

Nan-yüeh went on, "Are you studying seated meditation or are you studying seated Buddha?"

 

"If you're studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting still. If you're studying seated Buddha, Buddha is no fixed mark."

 

"If you're studying seated Buddha, this is killing Buddha."

 

"If you grasp the mark of sitting, you're not reaching its principle."

 

(commentary on "The Lancet of Seated Meditation", "Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation", Bielefeldt, 1st ed., p 191--available on Terebess)

 

 

The first thing Dogen wrote when he came back from China was his "Fukan zazen gi", or "instructions for zazen".  He gave detailed, explicit instructions about the posture in sitting.  He apparently rewrote "Fukan zazen gi" a number of times, and the instructions he gave were largely based on a Chinese instruction manual he must have copied while he was in China.

 

Goes to the heart of the matter, IMO, that he rewrote the instructions several times.  Gautama gave no such instructions, other than:

 

... gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, (a mendicant) sits down cross-legged, sets their body straight, and establishes mindfulness in front of them. 

(Mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato, suttacentral dot net)
 

 

So "sets their body straight."  Gautama then talks about thought initial and sustained applied to particular aspects of the body, the feelings, the mind, and the mental states--nothing of the kind of postural instruction that Dogen felt was so important.

 

Dogen does say:

 

Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.

 

(Eihei Dogen, “Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version, trans. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176)

 

 

I do have things I rely on, in order to understand the patterns that develop in kinesthesiology when "making self-surrender the object of thought", I "lay hold of concentration, lay hold of one-pointedness of mind".    Beating the horse instead of the cart is letting go of the placement of attention, of any specific location of consciousness, in favor of the free placement of attention/consciousness anywhere in the body.  And in that regard, Gautama had plenty to say.

Fifty years of rewriting the interplay of instructions in the teachings and modern Western kinesthesiology, to be able to approach the patterns Gautama described.

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages.
 

For most people, the fact that these patterns are vague and that the kinesthesiology must yield to the placement of attention is too much to stomach.  If you're feeling brave:  A Natural Mindfulness.