steve

It makes alot of sense. Although, wouldn't compassion also fit in to the list of functional designs? It seems that it is simply our conditioning that leads us to assign labels like good, bad, desirable, undesirable....

It's really nice to read about your experience, cloud. The funny thing is, I don't really know what to say. Congratulations doesn't seem quite right. Sharing my own experiences doesn't seem necessary. Kind of like you felt, it just is and it's obvious but it's miraculous at the same time. I guess I'll just say thanks for sharing that, it makes me feel good reading your post.

When I began to cultivate/meditate in earnest, I rapidly lost my taste for meat and alcohol. I still eat meat when the urge is there (rarely), or when my wife puts it in front of me... (more often than I would like... ) and I drink wine occasionally, but I'm much more sensitive to both. Meat seems to be dead rotting muscle to me now and is rarely appetizing. I get intoxicated much more easily now than I used to. I used to drink quite a bit... All of this is still a reflection of "my" illusion. Animals run and scream from predators yet the predators still kill and eat them. People still struggle against death yet death is always there to greet them. It is a part of the way. Humans are descended of predators and carnivores/omnivores, is it not their way to eat meat? As we get closer to our nature, why would that not include playing the role of predator. I believe it's more related to conditioning than becoming closer to our nature. I fully agree that our current parasitic existence is not "natural" yet eating only vegetables does not appear to be a natural state of humanity either. I also feel the natural tendency to shun meat as I continue to cultivate, yet, isn't cultivation a method to achieve our natural state? Isn't nature full of predator/prey relationships? Why would cultivation take us further from our predatory tendencies? It's all quite interesting...

For the sake of discussion: If consciousness and life are one, non-dualistic, the eternal Dao, what is the difference if I eat vegetable, fruit, nuts, fungus, fish, fowl, animal, or, for that matter, human? Where is the distinction, is the distinction not illusory?

Nothing at all of any consequence - when the mind is quiet and visual input removed, subtle optic neuronal discharges can be appreciated. I don't think it's terribly valuable to put much stock in the wide variety of audiovisual experiences one has during sitting. It simply reinforces the sense of self importance. Best to let it go.

If I were a girl, I would certainly want to have more fun!

1. Awareness 2. Self inquiry 3. Tai ji quan 4. Shi ba luo han gong 5. Kun lun xian zong meditation (not related to Max Christensen's teachings)

I don't remember the last time I phrased that so well, I'm very pleased with myself I've love the Talking Heads since day one. I saw them once and sat front row dead center. To top it off, Burning Spear warmed them up! Probably my favorite concert ever. How about My Life in the Bush of Ghosts!!? The radio exorcist blows me away! Oh, can't forget the Catherine Wheel... But my favorite will always be the first album - '77. It doesn't get any better. Thanks for that...

If anyone decides to play with Salvia Divinorum PLEASE get someone to babysit and do it somewhere quiet, private, and safe! The degree of dissociation can easily lead to serious injury or a fatal accident as there is little or no conscious awareness at high levels of intoxication. It's a short trip so the sitter should not be a big deal.

My best time is between 5 and 7 am. I'm most clear and settled. This is what my shiye recommends as well, when possible. I tend to get more easily distracted or sleepy in the afternoon and evening.

I enjoy lucid dreaming. I don't work at cultivating it. When it happens, I relish it. I had a very long lucid dream a few months ago while on vacation. Somehow, I knew it was coming. I spend a good part of it making love and the rest flying - my two favorite indulgences while dreaming. I successfully used a recovery technique. At one point I began to lose control and lucidity so I started spinning and recovered complete clarity and control - it was cool.

If there is an "I" here to define and experience enlightment, then "I" am not there yet.

Some similarities to other practices - qi mobilization, sense of health and well being, sense of clarity and alertness. Differences - more demanding physically and several single leg postures and some jumping and intense streching. It seems to push the physical development more as well as challenging the balance and flexibility. Also, it's a pretty long set so endurance is an issue in the beginning. Thanks for the links. THe video shows some definite similarities to some of our forms but many differences as well. The demonstrator has obvious high level skill. I'd be wary of the "explanation" of the origin of the 18 Luohan as I think it is more legendary than documented, but the info on the 18 Luohan is really fascinating, thanks! #5 夜叉 - ye cha is literally 'night fork' and refers colloquially to an ugly demon or devil of the night and is also seen in the Yang style Taiji jian form where the same name exists. The similarity is that in both forms, one sweeps the hand or tip of jian along the floor which is where the 'explores the sea' is reflected. There must be some folklore reference to a demon at sea at night but that's beyond my level of knowledge. #9 Iron ox plows the field is very descriptive. It contains movement of punching into the ground while standing erect, bending from the waist, and lthen eaning back with the palms hooked under the thighs giving the feeling of a yoke #18 Precious jug hangs on a gold hook - the reaching and waving movement of the arms and sword fingers reminds one of hanging something from a hook on the wall so maybe the precious jug refers to the vessel of qi, perhaps, that one is developing and the fact that this is the last exercise implies it's time to hang the jug up and call it a night. These are just my interpretations. My teacher doesn't like to talk much and give explanations. I believe that most of the movements are descriptive and linked to various elements of Chinese culture.

Sorry y'all - inexperience and enthusiasm got the better of me. Paragraphs have been created. Gottcha!! It's only been 3 days, my friend...

I don't know too much about the origin but here's what I know. My shiye is …. He learned the set from his teacher, …. This is a set of martial qigong exercises attributed to Shaolin, mainly because of the name of the set. Luo Han refers to a Buddhist adept that has transcended earthly desires. The exact origin is unknown to my knowledge. My teacher suggests those of us studying neigong to do them as we would internal exercises, using the yi to guide the qi and remaining relaxed. He has the external students practice them with isometric tension. He tells us that they are very valuable for building martial skills. I know that they have had a profound effect on me when I practice them regularly. They can be very demanding and build balance, strength, flexibility, rooting, and open several of the major meridians to enhance energetic cultivation. I don't do the dynamic tension consistently but I do use it on occasion. I'm more into the neigong practice. I don't know how our set compares to any other. I've attached an image of the hanzi/pinyin/English translation of the forms we practice. I hope this helps.

Mostly when practicing the jian. It is also used a few times in the Shi Ba Luo Han Gong set I pratice.

A good friend and fellow cultivator just bought a large collection of Watts' talks on CD. I think it's a total of 12 CDs! He gave me 6 today to burn. I'm looking forward to some wonderful listening. I'll let you all know what I think of it when I've worked my way through.

Cool topic... let me warm up my fingers a bit... Very young children seem to have little sense of "I" but it develops rather quickly, probably with the development of language, not long beyond infancy. Once a person learns to speak, the world of thought rapidly takes over and you can see the child develop the sense, experiment with it, and eventually identify with it completely. I've watched it happen in my own two children. Rather than experience the world, the mind develops images that represent the world. This keeps us safe and saves us time and allows us to become extremely efficient organisms. We no longer need to spend any time experiencing the large, hard brown thing with a crisp smell and green covering and rough taste and decide if it's a threat or of use, it's simply a "tree." Move on to the next item. This facility has made us so very effective at survival yet, along with it, comes the illusion of an individual organsim separated from everything around by a bag of skin and defined by our sensory organs. We are so effective, in fact, that we have enormous amounts of free time to suffer the consequencess of the separation created by this illusory identification with the body. Suddenly there is "I" and that "I-ness" is what I think of as ego. But the "I-ness" is just another fragment of thought like all the others so that the observer and the observed are one and the same. The illusion of separation is the source of all suffering. The feeling of separation is the drive to always want to become something else, something more. The attachments and desires are a consequence of the feeling of isolation or separation from our true nature. Yet, no evolution, no becoming, no cultivation, or practice can restore that which is already and always still there. Unfortunately, the "I" thought is always there telling us a lie, that we are incomplete and separated, but we're not! And every practice we undertake, every effort we make, simply reinforces this illusion that something needs to be done to rectify the situation, but it's a lie! The "I-ness" is quite possibly the very core thought, the first thought upon which all others arise and to which all others ulitmately refer to. Extinguishing that thought for brief periods of time is relatively easy. Doing it permanently is very elusive. If there are those that have done it (I believe there are some who have come close - names like UG Krishnamurti, Sri Ramana Maharshi, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, J Krishnamurti, Jeff Foster, Sailor Bob, maybe Muhammed and Laozi and Zhuangzi and Buddha and Jesus and so on), and we listen to what they say, it's fascinating to see the similarities and differences between their experiences. There still seems to be some coloration to their description and experience and subsequent actions and teachings that suggest that the "I-ness" is never completely gone during life. I believe that some of us may achieve states where we function to a great degree without being terribly centered in the "I" thought and we may to varying degrees experience the direct connection with that which is within and underlying the "I" illusion (the Self, collective consciousness, God, Buddha-nature, Dao, earth mother, Wakantanka, call it what you will). I'm not sure that a strong and well defined "I" awareness is necessary to function on a "normal" level since the necessary and acceptable behaviors are already there and contained within that greater awareness and can be called upon as needed. I do think that "I-ness" needs to develop at some point in our lives, however, for us to function in society. If we are successful at extinguishing it, I still think it's possible to function quite nicely, since we can draw on it as needed without it always influencing and annoying and causing us to suffer. I don't think it's likely that there are many children who escape the process of socialization but the few who have (kids raised by wolves and the like) seem never to fit in, if we can believe the case histories out there. Perhaps they are a glimpse at what the human without the "I" would be truly like, perhaps not. "I" don't know.... but it's fun to speculate and talk about with others who share my obsession with this stuff! Thanks for the opportunity to rant!

Watts is one of my favorite authors! Here's a little gem... ERbvKrH-GC4

It's not as funny as you think.... your comment I mean.... South Park's hysterical! We've got to nuke our imagination! Terrorists are loose in there!

In my early practice of Dao meditation, I found cannabis intoxication to be a great help to intensify the experience of qi and use of yi to guide the qi. After the initial boost, however, it became more of a crutch and ulitmately a distraction, and I stopped combining the two.

What does spiritually fit mean?

I remember those vibration belts that were popular in the '50's and '60's for weight loss. You'd stand on a platform with a belt around your bottom and it would shake your stuff - didn't work but was awful entertaining...

Back to the old problem - you need to define the term first - not easy to do. Perhaps we can figure it out by figuring out who is not enlightened. Kind of like finding who "I am" by figuring out who "I am" not. Would an enlightened person spend their time reading and posting messages on the web?

I agree and think I understand your point. The only real answers are in ourselves. There is no where closer to the truth than inside where the feeling of "I am" is found... Others' answers are best for them, sometimes useful to us, never as good as ours. I don't think it's the matrix, it's us. We identify consciousness with the body/mind and it creates the separation. We then are always searching for that something more, that next step, we need to become something more or different, it's the nature of the mind. It helps us find food and shelter, keeps us safe, but also creates suffering and drives us crazy. We recognize that there is something beyond or within us that it better, more powerful and we give it religious significance and call it God or whatever but it's really just us! Awareness and self-inquiry is one method that sort of fits your criteria - be in every moment, physically, emotionally, experientially. When thoughts arise, notice them and ask who they are occuring to. Keep turning the thoughts back on themselves by looking at who it is they occur to. Do this in your daily life. This is one safe, direct, and simple method that doesn't presuppose any particular believe system. Eventually, with patience and diligence, the I burns itself out - "like the stick used to stir the funeral pyre" and what's left is the true Self (borrowed from Sri Ramana Maharshi)