steve

Shiva, I recognize you!!! Hopefully, I'll be able to take you up on that challenge some day! Tudo bem!

That is simply a euphemism propagated by people who have not yet experienced God. They feel separate from God. They view God as something outside of themselves. They acknowledge God as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent and yet they somehow exclude themselves. Usually it is associated with a tendency for anthropomorphism, monarchism, and paternalism - it implies God as a father, maker, creator, king, lord, etc... Nothing at all. Too many of us confuse the "Image of God" with God, the reality. The image is never the thing, particularly when referring to something ineffable and unfathomable by human thought. We don't even understand the mind of a dog, a flea; we don't understand the nature of a virus or gravity, let alone whatever is meant by the letters God which certainly encompasses those trivial examples. So "the Image of God" is meaningless. The experience of God is what is worth focusing on.

Excellent. Regarding step 4, I think that a consistent and diligent practice of awareness is a profound change for most of us. Beyond that, I don't know if we can really change how we feel and if we force it, the non-verbal communication still betrays our true feelings I think. Good luck. I've had some pretty bad patches over the past few years. It's definitely a long term project.

I think we should put all the "debunking evolutionary theory" threads in a sub-forum or perhaps Immortal4life would start his own forum. This is really tiresome. I, for one, have better things to do than debate with (un)Intelligent Design advocates. Better yet, maybe he could post on the Kun Lun forum.

I love this book! I read a few chapters and bought a copy to send to my brother who has two little ones. Mine pretty grown up but there are still precious insights in this book for kids of all ages.

Absolutely - here is a four part program adapted from Demello. Sorry if I'm wordy or sound like a broken record with this stuff. Step one - recognize the negative emotion as it arises, you've done that. When there is a negative feeling - there is something under there. Something in you, a desire or expectation, that is being denied or rejected. Look for it. It may be subtle and elusive but it's there. Otherwise there would be no negative feeling. Step two - do not identify with the emotion. The emotion is not you, it does not define you. "You" is not depressed/depression. "You" is not irritation. "You" is not anger, anymore than "you" is your name or occupation. Irritation exists, it can be felt like other sensory perceptions. Feel it fully. Notice how it feels physically. Where do you carry it in your body? How does it cause you to act? And so on... Eventually the feeling will diminish and pass. And return... Just be with it. Make space for it. It can be there with you and you will still be you. Step three - understand that the negative feeling is in "you". It does not exist outside of you, outside of your own particular set of biases, conditioning, expectations, preconceptions, desires, and so on. Someone else in your position might feel and respond completely differently. Hence, if you feel irritated as a consequence of what someone else says or does, it is you choosing to do so, or behaving as an automaton based on conditioning, expectations, or desire. It has nothing to do with the other person. They are no more than an empty boat bumping into yours. Only you can give them the power to disturb you. They think they have that power because we have all bought into this grand illusion. But it's all a lie and a consequence of our lifelong addiction to approval. It starts in childhood and controls our entire life unless we see through it. It is the most subtle and pervasive addiction, and tough to kick. This takes a long time to see clearly and even longer to put effectively and consistently into action but it works. I promise you that. Step four - nothing needs to be done. Follow the first three steps patiently and diligently and there is no alternative but to experience change. And when you change, those around you will change, though it's hard to predict exactly what that change will look like. When you begin to really see how this works, you may get very annoyed with having allowed yourself to be so easily manipulated for so long. That's fine, make space for that too. You didn't stand a chance. You were brainwashed from childhood. We all are. Do you see how you are like a puppet on a string, dancing at the sound of other people's words? Try and see the absurdity of it all. Try and see the humor in it. The other person who thinks they can affect and control with their words is even more ridiculous, more entertaining to observe. When they see they are not having the expected effect on you, they may get angry and frustrated. It's laughable but I think it's also important to open up some space in your heart for them too and feel some compassion for them because you were them yesterday. This stuff will take a while to develop, like any skill, and nothing is perfect. You will need to consistently come back to this as you will get distracted and fall into old habits but over time it becomes easier and more natural. Give it a try and see what you think. It has worked for me quite well and I'm still working on it diligently.

We are only affected by the words of another if we choose to give them that power over us. You get to choose. Who you are and what you feel come from within you, not from the approval or disapproval of others. No one can make you feel anything unless you give them that power. We have been conditioned to be addicted to the drug called approval since birth and so we feel otherwise - see through that. This is the first step to liberation.

RAOTFLMFAO! I pray the mods keep you around for entertainment value. You may not be sensitive enough to realize how offensive your comments are to some folks. Nevertheless, they are. Fortunately, I just find your posts just a little amusing and a little sad. You do seem to have enough passion that you may eventually grow if you stay focused. If you do, please look back at these posts someday - maybe a year or two from now. It will be a valuable experience. Best wishes to you.

I will only disagree with one thing you said - "of course I'm not enlightened" You'll have to convince me of that one... edit - PS - I didn't mean to imply that I disagree with your original point, just fleshing it out. This enlightenment stuff is way too stuffy and untouchable for my taste. It's not all that unapproachable and, IMO, not all that big a deal. One day God catches a glimpse of herself in the mirror and winks and giggles and next day, more laundry. Can we forget sometime and get bogged down with all the laundry? Why not? Does that make us less enlightened? Time to tear down these barriers between us and enlightenment. We're the ones that build them, after all. Let's wink at each other and dance more!

And how would we know that? And to what degree? How would someone behave in that state? Like Ramana, Osho, Sailor Bob, Gurdjieff, Adyanshanti, Krshnamurti (K or UG?), Einstein, Watts? A homeless person sitting in the gutter with a smile on her face? If someone told us that they were in that state would we truly believe them? How to know? How to measure? Only one way - do the work ourselves. Day in, day out, live in awareness. See everything as if with the eyes of a newborn. Let go of all preconceptions and biases. Is that possible? Only one way to find out. Start now.

And if they could, would they want to? As per hagar's lovely post in another thread, life has so much to offer. So much pain, pleasure, surprises, anticipation. All of it is a blessing, a gift. Would we trade all that for tranquility? I think there really is some element of truth to the Hindu view of life being a dance and an act - a beautiful symphony - that exists in between deaths. Tranquility is the ground substance upon which we are all dancing our dance. There will be ample time to dwell in tranquility - why not dance a little?

Beautiful words. _/\_

Nice post - awareness, awareness, awareness When we are aware, there is no need to change. Appropriate change will occur naturally and effortlessly.

This is a great topic for study and spent a lot of time working with it. It's been brilliantly treated by Jiddu Krishnamurti and Anthony Demello - my two heroes. This is a very exciting area of investigation and very challenging!! When we enter into a relationship, what really happens is that the image "I" have of myself interacts with the image "I" have of the other. No one treats this topic of images better than JK. So how are we to replace the image with the real thing? Only one way - Awareness. This is Demello's forte. We need to open ourselves up totally to the other person. Look, listen, smell, taste, feel (tactilely, emotionally, energetically), read between the lines. Every moment needs to be about a fresh, unbiased look at the person. Is this possible? Another area JK shines in - the idea of dropping all conditioning and bias. Lots of questions come up and we can discuss and compare notes and experience and theorize till the cows come home. Only one way to find out if it is possible. Do it! And you need to apply yourself with all of your energy. It takes enormous energy to be fresh in every moment, not only with yourself but with the other. Can it happen??? Practice for a year or so and you tell me! Because this does not come in a day or a month. It takes time and diligence to live this way. After working at this for a long time, the other variable that comes into the equation is, what happens if I am successful and can be alive and fresh and in a relationship - will the other also do the same? Hard enough for one to do it, but two? Can it happen? Does it need to? The answers are dead - no need to try and answer these questions. Only the question is alive because the question stimulates action in those who care to devote themselves to such pursuits. Your answer is as meaningless to me as mine is to you. But as long as the question is there and you and I have the interest and energy to work on it diligently, we will know.

Hi Aaron, When most people refer to enlightenment in the spiritual arena, I think it is something other than "thorough (not complete) knowledge" of the subject. They tend to refer to something very specific but escaping finite and communal definition. Some state of being, a transcendent condition, and everyone has their own bias or desire as to what it means. I'll first say that I have no idea what it means. There are too many definitions and paradigms and desires and projections and so on... For my own purposes, if I use that term, (and I avoid it strenuously), I am generally referring to a state in which the personal, individual "I" comes into direct, sustained, experiential contact with it's true nature. In plainer terms, perhaps, God lifting her veil and recognizing herself for who she truly is. God is another word I used to avoid and be uncomfortable with because of so many associations and biases, but what the hell? If we're talking enlightenment, why not throw in the G-word for F's sake?

Cool perspective... Perhaps enlightened of the need to continue seeking?

I assert that psychological maturity is strongly conducive, though perhaps not absolutely essential, to spiritual enlightenment although spiritual enlightenment is not necessary for psychological maturity. edit - given all of the preconceptions and biases associated with the word enlightenment, might it not be useful to use the words spiritual maturity rather than spiritual enlightenment? It's interesting how we tend to use the word enlightenment in the spiritual arena and most folks tend to associate it with an absolute or extreme attainment. An all or none phenomenon. And everyone is so uncertain about what it really means that most tread very gingerly around it. Finding a definition to suit the majority of people is very elusive, so why do we feel so drawn to the word? Why continue to use it? Interestingly, there is no equivalent in the intellectual, psychological, scientific, sociological... realms. Is it because of the inherent ineffable aspect of the spiritual? Is it because we believe in it, that is we fervently hope that it is something that exists? If someone claims to be enlightened - oh my, what a feeding frenzy. How arrogant that sounds. Where does this hangup come from?

This brief but profound statement betrays the shallowness of your understanding. You are absolutely correct - you must look inward, very deeply, and very diligently. It may take a very long time. I do not mean to be offensive but you are also absolutely correct regarding your opinion of relationships and children. You are not yet ready to have meaningful relationships and you are certainly not fit to reproduce. Good luck in you search.

I subscribe to J Krishnamurti's thesis that there is no path. The truth is a pathless land, as he said. The path without a path, in my experience, is pure and simple - awareness. Open up to everything in you and around you. Notice everything, pay attention to everything, identify and attach with nothing. It is all you and none of it is you. Time to heal, time to just be. Enjoy the little things - good food, the company of friends, a good book. Nothing more needs to be done. Be well. edit - to say the following: It's easy to say there is no path, particularly when everyone who says that has tread some path or other to get to the point when they say - there's no path. I'm no Kun Lun fan (naysayer from day one) and yet here is a different perspective - Kun Lun may be exactly what you needed to reach the insight you now have. Perhaps there's no need for feeling bitter or exploited. Perhaps this is exactly what you needed and so you provided it for yourself. Rejoice!

One wonders what cultivation means, what goal it is addressed to, what is being cultivated, and what enlightenment means. The creator did not create any concepts - man creates concepts. I will offer the following alternative perspective - you will learn as much or more about yourself through your relationships than you will in isolation. Good luck in your search.

Agreed - very functional, compact, no nonsense and lends itself well to fast, small folks who may not have as much power. Low kicks to vital spots, knees, elbows. Good stuff, especially when combined with Qin Na.

Psych meds allow some folks to lead relatively "normal" lives who might otherwise be chronically hospitalized, suicidal, homicidal, and so forth. The meds are clearly over utilized but, IMO, godsends for the small group of folks with severe psychosis who benefit the most from them. Some people respond well to alternative treatments, others do not. Be careful and get guidance from credible mental health professionals, whether traditional, Western, Easter, or alternative.

Nice feeling when we have an insight and the veil is lifted, even if we only get a little glimpse. Yeah, lots of folks have invested a lot of themselves into the Kun Lun fad and countless others. It is not just Kun Lun. Let that revelation take you further. See through all of the bullshit. None of the methods and secrets and all that DO anything - it is always you who are doing it. If you beat your heart then you also grow the grass and shine the stars. You're it - always were, always will be. You just see and feel things differently between deaths. Nice to see you get back to the ground. Enjoy your life! Get that beautiful gal or some others back - apologize to your friends and ask them to come back in. The irony is that the folks who are so obsessed with immortality and future lives are the folks that don't what to do with the one life they have right here and right now. Namaste and thanks for sharing

Agreed - I'd much rather know a little than believe a lot! Sometimes when people ask me what I believe in I tell them NOTHING! That's an interesting place to start a discussion...

I've heard Anthony Demello say that the three hardest things to do for a person are - 1. Admit that they are wrong 2. Include the excluded 3. Return love for hate I think practicing these things can teach us alot about the topic at hand.