steve

Great post Otis

I guess it depends on what your looking for out of life. If you're looking to "win" or "get over" or are focused on your needs, desires, happiness, and so on... then the "cut-throat" method will work best for you. If you are looking to help others to achieve their goals, desires, and be happy, then the "moral" approach will be more effective. It's also important to recognize that helping others is also a selfish undertaking. When I make myself happy, I am giving myself the pleasure of pleasing myself. When I help others, I am giving myself the pleasure of helping others. Both are ultimately done to satisfy my own need in some way. Nevertheless, the "moral" approach works better when helping the other guy. And when (if) we have an insight into the connection underlying all of us, helping you really is helping me, and helping me is also helping me because we're both me. You're as much a "me" as I am. I just am limited to feeling my own skin and emotions but yours are just as real. Ultimately, I feel that the "moral" approach is more pleasing to me for the most part, more of the time, currently, than the "cut-throat" approach. But I would be lying if I said that I follow one path exclusively.

Great post Otis. I experienced something similar in my Taijiquan practice. For a long time the postures are determined by visual image, mirror, description, teacher's corrections, and so on. Eventually the body learns to feel when its correct and this ultimately becomes "more correct" than attempting to mimic someone else or follow directions. Now its enough to feel the body and conform to the principles outlined in the classics (for the most part) and at that point the Taiji is yours. And at this point the feeling is not necessarily limited to "the body." That is, the part that's bounded by skin. The wave/particle metaphor you mention brings Alan Watts to mind again. I never get tired of listening to him.

I've read through some of the book. Well put together IMO. I've had some chronic back pain for years and over the past few months I've been much tighter in the low back, hips, and pelvis than usual. I've also been pretty severely traumatized in the past and continue to be exposed to and work through some of the traumatic stimuli. In just a few sessions, I feel a definite improvement in the low back and hip/pelvic stiffness. I haven't had much psycho/emotional release other than a transient but fairly intense burst of emotion the first time I did it. I think the preparatory exercises are important. They seem designed to fatigue the leg muscles a bit which I think probably creates the physiologic environment conducive to trembling. The trembling is fascinating. Some is high velocity and short excursion like quivering, some much longer and slower and rhythmic. You can feel the different muscle groups being recruited in a relatively random pattern. Definitely something I plan to work with for a while.

A very important question. When we speak of history we need to distinguish events we personally experienced from those we have not. If we have not experienced the event, we are simply relying on someone else's interpretation and documentation of whatever events they witnessed, often 3rd, 4th,.... hand. Our own experience is 1. extremely limited 2. intimately related to our cultural biases, expectations, emotional attachment, vantage point and so on, and 3. wholly limited to our accuracy of documentation and/or memory. To some folks the Bible is history, to others Laozi is a historical figure. As per my example earlier - which history of the destruction of the twin towers is the truth? And that only happened 10 years ago! We can certainly say that something happened but it starts to get fuzzy as we try to pin down the details.

My pleasure - glad you liked it. It really opened my eyes to some interesting ideas about time. He was extremely insightful and a brilliant teacher. A new movie is currently being produced about his life. Check here - I can also heartily recommend a CD set of talks from late in his life called "Out of Your Mind"

Word

Theories can't exist without evidence. A theory defines a relationship between multiple pieces of evidence. Certainly, specific bits of evidence can occasionally be extremely important in therms of clarifying or establishing theory. On the other hand, the theory is a consistent, reproducible, and predictive construct that produces results. The data alone is not as valuable if you don't see the relationships that allow inferences and predictions. So as much as its always dangerous to make judgements, yes - I would say that the theory is more valuable than the raw data but also, completely dependent on the data.

Great points to think about. History is a funny thing. Not only is it written by the victors but it is rewritten by those in power at any given time. Furthermore, Marbles' point about interpretation is critical but it is because of this that history really isn't written in stone. Just about any event in time is interpreted differently by everyone involved, even eyewitnesses (think - Rashomon). The Palestinians and Jews would have a different story for just about any occurence in the West Bank since 1967. So what is history? It's mostly our documentation of our interpretation of events. And our perspectives change in time, so history, in fact, does change as our interpretation changes. We can be very concrete and say that the twin towers either collapsed or did not collapse but beyond the very basics, how much would everyone agree upon? I really enjoyed the Alan Watts on Time videos:

I think it's because the "being" is exactly what is in the way. The "being" can do nothing to attain it. Perhaps it is just an accident. Like the Buddhists say, it could take many, many lifetimes, or an instant.

Perhaps I should have used the word - invite, rather than challenge. I think I've connected to those who share my feelings and I know better than to try and convince anyone who doesn't. I do appreciate your comments, Sloppy, but I think we've beat this horse enough. You guys are all just a bunch of assholes. I'll try to play nice. Just kidding mods, couldn't resist a little levity. I'm out!

Again- the point I am making is that I choose not to insult. I challenge others to consider doing the same. I am very forgiving with respect to insults. I forgive you entirely for the insulting things you've said about me in this discussion. I have no problem with the moderators using their judgement. As I've said, I've never logged a single complaint about anyone save one. I'm talking about making a choice with the heart. I support whatever level of moderation our mod team deems appropriate. Strict, not strict, I really don't care. I care about my own choices and raise the opportunity for all. And I really do appreciate the fact that you value my opinion. I disagree - insults are nearly always distortions. An insult is a personal attack. In general, it is more accurate to attack a statement, idea, or behavior. On a forum, as was posted earlier, we can only address words on the screen. We don't know the people well enough to address their person. So most insults are either generalizations or are based on assumptions that may or may not be accurate. Using insults in your online communication is more likely to cause you to offer distortions than avoiding them. Again we must agree to disagree. Being polite is a characteristic of maturity. Yielding to impulse is a characteristic of immaturity. Both are valid choices. The polite, mature interaction is more likely to lead to collaboration and compromise - the hallmarks of civil interaction. Impulsive behavior is more likely to lead to conflict in adults. We are not children and do not behave like children in our adult interactions (well, most of us anyway). I agree completely that open and honest communication, even to the point of being blunt and frank, is best and it is my preferred approach. It is more likely to be successful and well received when offered without personal insult. I think you want to be able to freely express yourself as you see fit. I think that you are not concerned enough with considering the feelings of others. Perhaps you equate that with intellectual honesty and integrity. I think that you currently feel intellectual honesty is more important than compassion and love. I understand that position all too well. I also honor and value intellectual honesty and integrity. There was a very long time in my life when I was consumed with the intellectual and analytical side of me and totally lost touch with the emotional side. This resulted in an imbalance that has had a negative impact on my relationships with my family members (parents, wife, kids...). I've worked diligently over the past few years to rediscover my emotional being and I've come to value and honor love, compassion, and the heart as much as intellect and analysis. I intend to implement both in my life and at this point in time I feel like the heart is taking a slight priority over the mind. That's my choice right here and right now and the background behind my comments regarding insult. This approach has helped to resore balance in my own life and has helped me to deal much better with my professional life as well. Thanks for listening.

Very nice to watch you move Otis! Bravo!

Spending time with little children if the opportunity presents itself...

Interesting stuff. Those interested in magic may also enjoy "The Mindscape of Alan Moore" and some of Alejandro Jodorowsky's work on healing with Tarot. Great stuff.

Thanks - I've yet to read Campbell. I'll check it out. Is that a good place to start in his oeuvre?

How about politicians? Sad, isn't it?

Very true, but also dull! This is why the Hindus came up with the allegory of the great actor, the great dancer. The universe loves music and vibration. Everything is a wave and what is a wave if not music? So we are all supposed to be dancing. This is our dance. And when our chance has passed, others get a turn. I'm not sure it's set up so our feeble intellects can find a satisfying reason for all of it. Why isn't it enough to just have this dance? Birds, dogs, and whales know what they are and it is enough. It is the human condition to not be satisfied, to desire, to need to become something other than we already are, no matter what that is. That is the nature of suffering according to the Buddhists. So they tell us to let go of desire - recognize that permanence is an illusion so there is nothing to cling to, no advantage to desire. And the Daoist approach is to revere the simple man, the peasant, the fool. And the Hindus reveres the forest hermit who wanders off naked into the woods. They are all telling us the same thing. Wake up to what you are. You're already that. It is enough. And maybe not...

Beautiful - thank you for sharing that. I feel the same way about my experience of Qi. It's a process, not a quantity.

Great research. I've been fascinated with this line of inquiry since first hearing about it on NPR a few years ago. This new paper adds an interesting spin. I also agree with Manitou's perspective and it feels like our conscious apparatus is more about monitoring and recording what is going on. And using those recordings (memory) to make last minute modifications (that window of free will per se) based on previous experiences being projected toward possible outcomes.

Yes it's completely obvious and everybody misses it! We are always already what we are. We always want to be something else - enlightened, awakened, saved, whatever. And all of the sages are telling us that we are already there! We are already that! The Daoists tell us this, the Buddhists, the non-dualists, the Hindus, Jesus, Judaism... So we are already in Rome and all of the roads lead AWAY! All of the methods, practices, paths, cultivations, and prostrations lead AWAY from our natural state, from what we already are. They take us farther away, way way out in different directions until we drive ourselves crazy. And as long as we insist on finding the right path we're continually going away from Rome in all different directions. That is the purpose of Chan and Zen - the purpose of the koan and the endless neigong exercises. They take us way out to the limits of our understanding and tolerance until we finally WAKE UP! And we are in Rome. And we realize there is no where else to go. There is no need to try and find our way out. We are already here.

I guess you missed my sarcasm just like you've missed the point of my posts. I continue to disagree with you fundamentally, I'm just not interested in prolonged debate. I never said anything about zero tolerance. Those are your words. I used words like "never healthy", "never necessary", and "never appropriate" - I stand by that regarding personal insult. And as always, it is only the opinion of one person. It is something I aspire to myself. I am not forcing this on anyone. As you should be able to tell from this conversation, I am very tolerant of insult, I simply choose to avoid it myself. What I am talking about is trying to cultivate the mindset of choosing not to offer personal insults. Making a choice to communicate in more skillful and mature ways, not mandating or legislating it. That's a personal decision for each of us to make. It is a challenge, not an admonition or demand. This is an invitation. This is an opportunity for cultivation. This is trying to integrate the heart with the intellect. Tempering argument with compassion. It's not for everyone and that's fine. As I said earlier - you are welcome to communicate as you see fit. I invite all to consider my perspective and you are all free to agree or disagree, it doesn't really matter to me. I'm not concerned with your reassurance, agreement, or approval. PS Keep your day job, you're armchair psychoanalysis is way off the mark

This is great.

It works both ways. A single specimen is a single piece of data that may support or not support a theory. The theory is much more valuable and powerful than any single fact (ie piece of evidence).

I've had an epiphany! I'm an intolerant, extremist, egoist, coward who has the audacity to advocate verbal non-violence on a forum devoted to spiritual investigation. I feel much better now. Thanks Gold. Good times buddy.