steve

_/\_ _/\_ Purdy eloquent fir a coupla of Bums.

That is the only way... ... who else would you give that authority to? When we make a proclamation of measurement of enlightenment we are either... 1. Declaring ourselves the authority or... 2. Declaring someone else an authority and believing in their words... which I see as attachment, until you see their truths personally, in which case you need to kick it up to #1 3. Making a gratuitous assertion (ie verbal farting) Tough territory to navigate any way you look at it, I think. I try mostly to be guilty of 1 or 3. If I can't stand on my own ground, how can I stand on someone else's?

Sometimes I wonder why it is that we tend to be so obsessed with words that are attributed to people (primarily men) who died thousands of years ago. First of all, I can't get reliable informations regarding something that happened yesterday, let alone 2,000 years ago... Second, I'm invariably reading words written by disciples who undoubtedly had their own interpretations and agendas... Third, I do try to do my own translations of Chinese (with limited results) but in general I'm depending on translations of Chinese, Sanskrit, and Pali which are further corrupted by interpretation of the translator who may or may not be learned in the material... Certainly there have been a few great thinkers and lots of great thoughts. And some of these thoughts have been accurately captured on paper and some corrupted. But why should I think that someone else's thoughts and concepts are a path that will lead me in the "right" direction? It seems to me that it has been the original thinkers that have made breakthroughs, not their followers. The trailblazer makes discoveries, their followers just find footsteps... And it is very easy to get stuck following someone else's footsteps. If you are staring at someone else's footsteps, you never see what is all around you.

Hell yes! Woot!

Yeah, I'm not very smart. I also interpret electronic communication very concretely because it is a very sterile medium. And I'm slow. So my approach is to empty myself so that there is nothing interfering with Dao doing the dance. Because I just get in the way anyway. I'll try it a little right now, I think. Here are words by an old dead guy - Refrain from artificially exalting capable persons, so that people shall not strive for fame and credit; Refrain from presenting things that arouse desires, so that people's hearts shall not be disturbed. Therefore, Sages manage things as follows: Cleansing people's hearts of the abundance of desires, Replenishing the Lower Dantian with Qi, Making people's hearts become peaceful and tolerant, thus, strengthening their physical constitutions naturally. Maybe there is something to it after all...

Nice post and I'd like to make an observation about the first paragraph. First we haven't, and probably can't, define enlightenment to everyone's satisfaction but no need to belabor this, I'll move on with what I really want to say. Second, you describe three conditions - what we observe outside, what we observe inside, what we observe in/out but cannot communicate. I think there may be other aspects to us that are not, maybe even can not, or will not be observed, whether communicable or not. Very few of us actually do the work to observe ourselves thoroughly. It's my primary practice currently. And it takes a long time and an enormous amount of energy and dedication to observe oneself. Most are satisfied with a script or recipe to follow. And most of us are robots, behaving in ways that are determined by patterns of conditioning and belief that is never observed, let alone questioned. So these layers that are not observed or recognized and present and fully operational and controlling our activity, thought processes, choices, and behavior must be accounted for. Let's say there are two levels here also - observable (through awareness) and not observable (because I don't know that all layers are). I don't know if what I'm proposing is "true" or accurate and don't have the time to work through it right now but it feels worth contributing and it's based on my own work and experience.

Forgot to mention: Similarly, I'm not confined by your view, and I'm very comfortable stating that my view is considerably more viewless than yours, my brother. And doesn't it say somewhere that Nirvana is Samsara and Samsara is Nirvana? Why then cross an ocean? Why not just step out and see it for what it is? Or why not just float in the middle? Liberation can take countless lifetimes, or an instant.

Nothing like slinging around the gratuitous assertions! Actually, I'm fairly familiar with the Four Noble Truths and Eight Fold Path and so on. And you may cling as firmly to that path as others cling to other teachings. There are many beautiful teachings and all need to be let go of, even yours. If you don't know that yet you are not as far along as I imagined. Of course not, it is what you substitute for a god or a way. It is your life raft. It has never been born and never dies. It is empty and the source of everything. I love it, actually It's way cool... King Missile did a great song called Jesus was cool, I may re-write that with Buddha! Methinks I struck a chord. Trying to make me jealous by comparing your siddhis to getting laid in the back room with a hot lady? And I'm full of crap? Sorry my friend, I have no ill intent... enjoy the hotties and I'll have a drink. Thank you for that suninmyeyes, I appreciate that perspective. I can be pretty dense sometimes... In case you haven't already figured that out!

Got it! There is no refuge in this world, and no refuge in god, and he doesn't teach that there is any refuge in this world. He teaches to take refuge in him, his ideas, and his family. Got it! Thanks! Good luck with that. Hmmm - that would be really weird. I may need to talk to a therapist about that. I'm much sicker than I thought! Wait a minute now, I'm the one arguing AGAINST the gay necrophilia - you have already confessed and show no sign of contrition whatsoever!

I guess on the surface I would say they fell victim to other peoples with higher technology. However, if we think about The Empty Boat, what are these folks with higher technology other than the hand of the universe? I can't figure it out. If humanity commits genocide how can it not be the intent of the universe? What the hell is going on here? It's just one of those things, I guess.

You may just be on to something there. I definitely have never fully worked out where things stand with my mommy and I do miss my grandmommy. There certainly may be some personal projection but I always find it telling that most indigenous and shamanic cultures show an enormously greater level of respect to the female than do most of our current traditions - that's really what is was referring to and I was implying nature as our mother.

Thanks brudda!

I disagree completely - you have objectified your lineage. You cling to it. It is your refuge. There is no security. There is no ground to stand on. You haven't yet understood emptiness my learned friend. Who are you and who are they?

Thought arises naturally, how could it be other than part of our interaction with the Dao? We were blessed with superior intelligence, verbal skills, and discriminatory faculties. They are ours as natural skills and gifts. Does using our natural skills violate acting in accordance with Dao? I struggle with this assumption. Very nice - but what did it take to get you to that point? How can we adapt your skill and attitude toward dance to all of life?

I have a different view. I see humans as animals that were blessed with or evolved this amazing tool called intelligence. And it has allowed us to change the earth to a certain degree to allow us to nearly choke off the existence of all other naturally occurring life. And eventually, unless we mature psychologically and emotionally, it will cause the earth to no longer be as fit for us to thrive and we will go away. The Native Americans you refer to (and most indigenous peoples) have already fallen victim to this. We are way out of balance and maintain our dominance through technology which is fragile and limited. We are very far out of touch with nature.

Very dynamic - it must be. Thought arises... fades beneath receptivity.... arises.... fades.... Never ending. In each and every moment there is thought or there is receptivity. There is not ever one completely to the exclusion of the other, I think. They seem to be mutually arising - interdependently originating So when is it Wu Wei? When "I" am completely absorbed in a task? When "I" am mindful of being involved in a task? When "I" choose a course of action that my conditioning and bias assures me is in accordance with Dao? When "I" am subsumed in tranquility? Interesting to explore the relationship between mindfulness and wu wei, perhaps.

Ah, but we are not talking about a trail in the jungle. We are talking about a trail through YOUR psychology, philosophy, culturalization, and conditioning. Your personality which is a unique culmination of your genetics and external influences. Who has been there? Others have tread such a path through themselves - not through you. And most of those were very different people than you. Why should their path lead to your answers? If you look at statistics they don't! Krishnamurti said "truth is a pathless land" and this is one reason why. Even those adhering to a particular tradition or dogma must eventually get out of the canoe and do the work without anyone holding their hand. We all want security. We want to believe that someone or some discipline or dogma has a reliable answer. That we are not wasting all these years of study and practice. We want reassurance. We want the safe bet. It doesn't exist. Exactly why I emphasized gender. It's so true and we are so conditioned and indoctrinated by our authorities that they are terribly pervasive and subtle. We have lost our way back to ourselves and our mother. It's sad. Exactly right and I appreciate your honesty. And why not the old women? Because they have been wrenched from our spiritual psyche for so long that most of us don't even acknowledge their glaring absence. Of course, they give security and hope. But role models and authorities will not help you beyond a point.

Rant on.... Yes, and in those times people were still able to exploit the power of religion by ascribing their selfish desires, religious, and political ambition to the will of God. And people do it today, every chance they get. Let's assume for a moment that there is a higher purpose in the universe and that humanity can reckon it. Who determines what God's will is? You? Me? Fred Phelps? Reverend Falwell? George Bush? Ahmadinejad? The pope? Trunk? Manitou? (I nominate Manitou) Who is to judge who is correct? Who among humanity will speak for God? Should we vote on that? What about the religious? These are the very opportunists who have propagated the majority of atrocities in history in the name of knowing God's purpose. Look at the world around you, do you see psychological and spiritual maturity? In the states, where we are more concerned with homosexual marriage than with compassion and meaningful environmental and health care reform? In the Middle East? In China? The Catholic Church? The Dalai Lama? Who will be God's messenger on Earth? Every religion on Earth, even the Buddhists who don't "believe in God" agree that "God's message" is love, compassion, and charity. How has that helped us? Don't worry so much about what is in God's mind but what is in peoples' hearts. That is where our suffering comes from and that is where it can end. You will never be able to convince more than a handful of people to believe in your personal idol, ideology, or religion and its particular choice of words to communicate that message. And if you can, what about everyone else? But you just might be able to convince most people to look into their own hearts and find those qualities because we all share them inside. . So I'm not at all concerned about God's purpose. And yet here I am, manifesting it in my every action. Wu Wei Sorry for the rant... Off.... Have a nice day

Nice discourse on Ziran, Jack. According to my teacher, ziran 自然 is one of the qualities that should be expressed in the practice of Taijquan forms, along with song 鬆, and jing 靜. PS I've also been exploring and enjoying the parallels in Daoist and Buddhist concepts lately. One of the most difficult limitations being, of course, that I am dependent on translations of Pali, Sanskrit, and Chinese. I'm currently reading Mind Beyond Death by Dzogchen Ponlop and The Wisdom Of Lao Tse by Yun Lintang. Great books and full of such parallels

No ranks in Daoism. Ranking and Daoism are antithetical. There are no living well-known Daoists, By nature, Daoists are very inconspicuous. No legitimate commercialization of Daoism. No movement that needs helping. I think the forum's been around since '04, lots of members. Only a few are consistently active.

Very nice, thanks!

Very true. And I think it is a natural tendency - what other frame of reference do we have? It's sort of like the abused child that abuses his children - certainly didn't enjoy the experience as a child but that's his frame of reference to work from.

Nice post Stig. The other aspect is mutual arising. Opposites define each other. Without ugliness, you would have no concept of beauty. Without heat, there would be no knowledge of cold. The Taiji diagram itself implies this but the black within white and white within black takes it a step further for me.