steve

However, when we are still overly fascinated with objects, it is difficult to get much out of this practice. I'm not sure what you mean, please elaborate...

My meditation is very productive at the beach. There is something about the environment that I can totally dissolve into. Also, being at the beach for me generally means vacation so I have a lot more time for meditation.

Hi Phore, Very nice post. I'd like to comment on the above point, however. Qi goes beyond breath and air. Ancient Daoists used separate characters. Air/Breath or Qi 氣 contains "internal energy" Qi 炁 but also lots of other stuff - mostly unwanted (according to my teacher) Breathing is also a process that allows us to extract Qi 炁 from Qi 氣 We also get Qi from other sources (prenatal, food, universal, etc...) The Qi itself, however, is a more subtle "energy/awareness/connection" that is beyond air or breath. Guiding the Qi through the bone marrow is not guiding air or breath through the marrow, for example. As I mentioned before, I personally have a bit of a different view of Qi than even my teacher but this is the more classic view that I've been shown and I think it is an important distinction that is not always clarified. Not everyone agrees with me on this - for example: http://www.buqi.net/en/articles/chi.htm I disagree with Dr. Shen's comments regarding Lishu - I've been taught that some Daoist texts and verbal transmissions do make a distinction between 氣 and 炁 .

Some musings about Shen and stuff: I've read a little about the more theoretical and analytical aspects but most of my understanding comes from practice. My teacher has always discouraged much reading and advised me that the same time spent only practicing would be much more valuable. So my ideas are my own and may or may not help you. Jing - sexual energy, semen 精 When I first started practicing Daoist meditation we learned the MCO. I couldn't figure out what I was supposed to be feeling for a while. One day I had a powerful perception in my lower pelvis that had the quality of the physical feeling of sexual stimulation. I began working with this and it opened the door to working with Qi. I think Jing goes beyond the sexual although the sexual methods and awareness are helpful tools in understanding it. Jing is the energy inherent in physical being, more or less, not only existing now but potential energy as well - hence, the reproductive component. It's very useful to look at it as the energy and "substance" of your physical body. Substance is just our perception of a specific pattern and level of energy, after all. Although, as your practice progresses, self and other become less distinct. Qi - air, breath, oxygen, energy 氣 or better yet 炁 Qi seems to be the interaction between Jing and Shen. It seems to be more a transaction - an awareness, a perception, and less any kind of substance. Looking at Qi as energy one can manipulate and contain doesn't ring true in my practice. Qi to me is more akin to tuning the antenna of my being to whatever animates me/it/us, connecting the physical experience to the mental experience. Working with QI is more about dissolving into the awareness of being and less about generating or storing a quantity of energy or stuff. It is a tuning of the Shen to the experience of the Jing. Those two communicate and interact through Qi. Shen - spirit, god, heart, mind 神 Shen was the most elusive of the three to penetrate. Shen is universal consciousness/awareness. It is also uniquely you. It is always there. It is generally very muddled and muddy. It can be refined, it can be uncovered through awareness. It is what is aware of Jing and Qi. It is what motivates Yi. It is very complex and absolutely the most basic and profound. Like refining Qi, the process of refining Shen has more to do with stripping away than with building up. Become aware in daily life and being to strip away patterns and conditioning. See what lies behind your ideas and assumptions, your expectations and desires. Strip away the bias. See what lies beneath all that and dwell there. Bruce Frantzis gives a nice discussion of some of this stuff in his meditation books. I don't think he has that much experience in so called "fire" methods of meditation as his description makes it seem much different from the "water" method he describes when they're nearly identical. The organization is a bit different but not so much the intent or method. Fire methods also involve dissolving, it's just a bit differently structured, that's all. Jing Qi and Shen are always already there. They interact freely with each other and Daoist cultivation is more about cleaning away the distractions and being able to experience them directly and participate in the process. So in order to develop Shen, I would suggest that you continue your practice of working with Jing and Qi and start to look at who is it that is working with JIng and Qi? What is the reason? How does this all happen? How do you react to different things in your life? What is under your surface? Start to look at who you are and why you are even interested in all this stuff. That should help you understand Shen a bit better. The Buddhists talk about the Mind / Dependent Origination / Emptiness - drop all concepts and methods and simply be and this is what is. The Daoist talk about the Way - a verb. Drop expectations and desires and do not interfere just do or do not do, and it is what is... Krishnamurti talks about Truth being a pathless land and choiceless awareness - drop the methods and rituals and choices and measurements. Let go all belief and have faith, which means that everything can be dropped and whatever remains is what is. Hope that helps somehow. Good luck

Well spoken! My advice regarding the OP would be standing meditation. Very natural and comfortable posture. Open all sensory awareness - total yin. Feel... When the mind gets distracted, let the content go, relax, smile, return to now... Just feel and smell and taste and hear... - everything inside and everything outside.. Try and gradually build up to practicing this for 20 - 30 minutes, for most it will take a few months to do it comfortably. I think this is a good basic foundation for discovering perception of "energy"

This is a critically important point in developing awareness about ourselves. It doesn't really matter whether or not a reward is involved. I subscribe to Anthony Demello's view on charity. All charity is selfish - 100%. Until you see this, you are not in touch with what motivates you. There are two types of "selfishness" - 1. When I give myself the pleasure of pleasing myself - this is what we usually consider selfish 2. When I give myself the pleasure of pleasing others - this is what we usually call charity When looked at carefully, both are a form of pleasing oneself - one is just a bit more refined than the other. It does not mean that either is better or worse, good are bad, both are equally valid but should simply be viewed with accuracy.

The one technique that I feel is completely natural and not forced in any sense is awareness. It can be practiced anywhere, anytime, under any conditions. One can sit in awareness, stand or walk in awareness, work and play in awareness. Once awareness is practiced sincerely, all other practices pale in comparison (IME) Krishnamurti was very outspoken about the use of methods in cultivating spirituality. "The truth is a pathless land." His writings are essential reading, IMO. On the other hand, I am torn between two points of view when thinking of cultivating Dao and living in accordance with Wu Wei. 1. Our thoughts are an unnatural product of generations of conditioning and must be abandoned to commune with Dao 2. Our thoughts and minds arise from nature as have the generations of conditioning, and therefore should all be embraced I think the resolution to this conundrum is parallel to the Buddhist perspective that nirvana is samsara and samsara is nirvana. Until this is realized at the deepest levels, one is never liberated.

When I first started digging into Daoism, I couldn't really get too excited about the Dao De Jing or Zhuang Zi. I then read "When the Shoe Fits: Stories of the Taoist Mystic Chuang-Tzu" by Osho. It blew me away. It helped me to begin to understand how to approach Daoism in particular, and the entire spiritual journey in general. Highly recommended.

Lies, beneath black robes Innocence violated In the house of God

I think that identity is a very useful psychological construct that comes from a combination of things. One is our sensory apparatus giving us a reference for being a finite, separate, individual entity that can be identified. Then there is our social and cultural conditioning that creates a sense of where we fit in with others. Finally, there is our total store of memories and knowledge. All of this seems to contribute to define our image of ourselves. This image (or story, if you will) that we create is what I would consider identity. Not having a solid sense of identity could mean a lot of things I guess. One possibility is mental illness - depersonalization disorder is one possibility. Another possibility is having uprooted one's moorings with meditative practices. I'm sure there are others. I personally feel that it is valuable for a healthy psychological life to have a sense of identity and, at the same time, it is healthy from a spiritual perspective to see through the illusory nature of that identity so that we are not limited by it.

No question about it... Although old dead guys can give us some clues it seems. What a beautiful story.

I try to be aware. Not only does this include what is going on around me but, even more importantly, what's going on in me. I rarely pay much attention to breath. I pay attention to how I react to people, situations, and so on. What feelings and thoughts come up. How I respond. This allows me to act rather than re-act. If I don't pay attention, I tend to utilize and reinforce conditioned patterns which are not always the most skillful. If I'm aware and have an opportunity to watch my response and choose my actions, there is room for growth and insight.

I have Three Treasures, which I hold and keep. The first is benevolence; The second is simplicity; And the third is daring not to be ahead of all beneath Heaven. From benevolence comes bravery; From simplicity comes comprehensiveness; And from daring not to be ahead of all beneath Heaven Comes the ability of exhausting all infinitude. - Hu Xuezhi Benevolence, love, compassion - comes when the fundamental non-dual nature of being is experienced. When I experience my eternal nature , how can there be fear? Simplicity is emptiness and tranquility, the source of all. When I am empty, I am full of everything; but when "I" am there, I am full only of myself. To dare to not be ahead of all beneath Heaven; what need is there to get ahead of others? of nature? to make known my accomplishments? to be great? one who strives for greatness is never truly great. To accept, to yield, to be comfortable with now and not strive to become... All is well.

If we have a view, we are already clinging. Being a Buddhist is already separating oneself from Buddha.

Yeah man, I like thuscomone's words! And stan's I've been practicing awareness and acceptance for several years now and it has changed my life. I'm just gonna play with my new cuica for a while...

Kids deserve a lot more credit and respect than they are given - emotionally, intellectually, and psychologically. They are a great resource for learning to the extent that they remain unspoiled by adult delusions.

My favorite Charles Heston performance was in Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine"

+3 I think that the more open we can be to this approach, the more we are able to develop wisdom. This is one of the major problems with adopting a dogma or method to the exclusion of others. It shuts us down. This can be useful early on but at some point I think it is critical to open up to possibilities beyond what is encapsulated in any one frame of reference.

I think that the watcher, or the judge if you will, is the sum total of generations of social and cultural conditioning combined with our unique life experience. We have this complex image we have created that is all about what is ok and what is not ok and its completely entangled with our addiction to approval. Then this thought crops up and usurps the role of authority and comments on what we're doing or thinking or feeling. We then project this onto other people whose thoughts, as you pointed out, can never be known to us. And we project it onto the universe or our concept of god so that we get a little uncomfortable even scratching our asses in private. It's a long but liberating road to work through this stuff and deconstruct it. And just like modern science finds experimentally when it looks at matter, and the mystics find analytically and experientially working in the mind and body, as you begin to peel away the layers, it proves to be completely empty. Now I do think that a certain degree of social convention is valuable. It allows us to interact more peacefully and coexist with our disparate habits and ideas. But I think it's important to see it for what it is, a tool or a convention that has a specific and limited value. I spent last week visiting my family in Florida and was out on the beach every morning practicing - some sitting, standing, taiji, and some other stuff. And it was very interesting to pay attention to how my awareness would jump to other people as they noticed me. And how I was projecting all sorts of things onto them and how it would affect my practice, and how different it is when a pretty girl walks by vs a tough looking guy and so forth... All very informative.

Very well thought out and argued point overall. Thanks for that, and the chuckle!

So as not to interrupt the haiku thread: All of being screams in order that the rainstorm may soak to the bone...

The undisturbed flow A sign of prostatic health Where to go from here?

This morning I was thinking about another parable: Ch'ui the draftsman Could draw more perfect circles freehand Than with a compass. His fingers brought forth Spontaneous forms from nowhere. His mind Was meanwhile free and without concern With what he was doing. No application was needed His mind was perfectly simple And knew no obstacle. So, when the shoe fits The foot is forgotten, When the belt fits The belly is forgotten, When the heart is right "For" and "against" are forgotten. No drives no compulsions, No needs, no attractions: Then your affairs Are under control. You are a free man. Easy is right. Begin right And you are easy. Continue easy and you are right. The right way to go easy Is to forget the right way And forget that the going is easy. -Chuang Tzu This never gets stale for me.